CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[CodeNoob]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and I found this thread particularly intriguing. Thanks for all the discussion. I wanted to chip in a bit regarding the theory of she committing suicide.

I really question the idea of she committing suicide in the water tank.

(1) As many of the people have pointed out, it's an extremely unorthodox, painful way of killing herself. Not to mention the near impossible process of pulling the lid back on etc.

(2) The news mentioned that she called her family every day until the day she went missing. A suicidal, depressed person, very rarely does that. He/she would try to hide themselves away from the rest of the world.

(3) Some mentioned that her tumblr had some depressing posts. I am not sure if that tumblr is truely hers, and even if it is, I wouldn't think too much into it. Everybody has some depressing time, but from posting depressing posts to actually committing suicide is a huge leap.

I am not sure if I am beating the dead horse, but I also don't think she was drugged, at least in the elevator video.

I am not an expert on club drugs, but frankly, I have never heard of a type of drug that can make someone completely lose consciousness, yet still able to stand on both feet as stable as Elisa appeared to be in the elevator. In the video, Elisa is able to stand straight, lean forward and backward, jump around pretty quickly without falling, and most importantly, switch from standing straight to moving alertly promptly -- that's just rare for anybody that's drugged or drunk. I wouldn't say she wasn't drunk/drugged after, but at least in that video, she is absolutely conscious.

Just my two cents....

 

[gitana1]

Did anyone find her clothes? There was some evidence she might have been bi-polar. If that's the case a manic episode could have had her shedding clothes and running around unpredictably.

We don't know whether her clothes have been found.

I noticed that the inside of the cistern did not show any foot prints or anything on the ground, where from what I understand, silt and particulate matter builds up - it looks grimy on the bottom. One would think if she was thrown in the cistern against her will or even committed suicide she might "bounce" up and down a bit and leave tracks/marks on the bottom. I don't know if that's a reasonable observation or not.

Is the photo (pictured below?) of the bottom or the top and how do we know?

is this her twitter? sorry if already posted
https://twitter.com/lambetes

from another site
"what if there is a "per" thats out of the shot?
then we have "perfect c * n t"
and what if hersum was one word?
check it
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hersum
hersum in etymology means "obedient"

so we we have "perfect obedient c * n t"

Snipped for space.

But, not when she was alive. These weren't cadaver dogs.

So, she was not alive doing anything (not hiding, hanging with new/old friends, not being suicidal) on the roof.

How do we know what kind of dogs went up there?

At the end of the day, we have our opinions. You are an attorney (?) and I work in the intsec field. We are going to have our differences on this because our professional training and experiences. There is no wrong or right, but I implore everyone to keep an open mind.

Profiling goes far past that as well. We use it in our line of work.

You asked why we assumed the perp was a male. I gave my answer: Based on stats, commons sense, logic. I have researched enough of these cases - including the bizarre outliers - to know that assuming the perp is a male is the logical thing to do.

LE doesn't look at every possibility known to man. That's impossible. They look at what is probable and what the evidence points to, first. They begin branching out from there. You know that.

 

[gitana1]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and I found this thread particularly intriguing. Thanks for all the discussion. I wanted to chip in a bit regarding the theory of she committing suicide.

I really question the idea of she committing suicide in the water tank.

(1) As many of the people have pointed out, it's an extremely unorthodox, painful way of killing herself. Not to mention the near impossible process of pulling the lid back on etc.

(2) The news mentioned that she called her family every day until the day she went missing. A suicidal, depressed person, very rarely does that. He/she would try to hide themselves away from the rest of the world.

(3) Some mentioned that her tumblr had some depressing posts. I am not sure if that tumblr is truely hers, and even if it is, I wouldn't think too much into it. Everybody has some depressing time, but from posting depressing posts to actually committing suicide is a huge leap.

I am not sure if I am beating the dead horse, but I also don't think she was drugged, at least in the elevator video.

I am not an expert on club drugs, but frankly, I have never heard of a type of drug that can make someone completely lose consciousness, yet still able to stand on both feet as stable as Elisa appeared to be in the elevator. In the video, Elisa is able to stand straight, lean forward and backward, jump around pretty quickly without falling, and most importantly, switch from standing straight to moving alertly promptly -- that's just rare for anybody that's drugged or drunk. I wouldn't say she wasn't drunk/drugged after, but at least in that video, she is absolutely conscious.

Just my two cents....

People keep mentioning how suicide is an improbability. I agree a bit. But I think a lot of us going for a mental health cause are looking at accidental death instead of suicide.

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

Another thought I had was - let's assume that she was in a depressed episode and intended to commit suicide. That could be a reason for her to NOT want other people to find her and stop her. So by pressing all the buttons on the elevator plus the door hold open button she makes it less likely that someone comes up and sees her getting out on the fire escape en route to the roof. Her hand wringing at the end is her mind arguing with itself whether to go through with the suicide. Where it looks like she's patting the dog - she's just triggering the open sensor one more time.

Possible, although it would only make sense if she was one floor below the 14th floor. Otherwise it would stop her at every floor before finally getting to the 4th.

Would really help if police confirmed if her clothes were on her or not and if they found them somewhere.

 

[Davania]

its the bottom the lighter rectangular hole is where they cut to remove her body you can see the reflection in the water of the photographer looking through the opening at the top - interesting re scale imo

 

[medsleuth]

In our area there was a beloved teacher who at once needed to be out of this world and loved her family. Her body was never found as she apparently jumped into the ocean from a very high cliff. And near the cliff she left her van full of presents for her family. But no suicide note.

In Elisa's case there is a similarity in that she had been purchasing presents for her family that evening. And she appears to attempt to disappear - literally crawls into a hole and dies. That - as opposed to an ugly roof jump, or self shooting or hanging. Those make a different statement. This seems the most likely explanation to me at the moment.

That's an interesting thought. It makes me think about something my coworker mentioned today.. Recently her friend committed suicide by overdose and chose to do it in the bathtub of her house. My coworker said people will do that out of consideration to the ones left behind that will have to clean the mess... A bathtub is an easy clean.

So I ask this, was elisa being considerate too? She did seem very sweet and thoughtful. To my knowledge the friend of my coworker and elisa seemed very similar... Described similarly. No one ever thought my coworkers friend was sad or anything then one day gone. She was diagnosed with depression as well but was not as vocal about it apparently.

 

[Davania]

https://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Mystery-of-girl-who-died-in-water-tank-in-LA-hotel?page=18

 

[kingsway]

Another thought I had was - let's assume that she was in a depressed episode and intended to commit suicide. That could be a reason for her to NOT want other people to find her and stop her. So by pressing all the buttons on the elevator plus the door hold open button she makes it less likely that someone comes up and sees her getting out on the fire escape en route to the roof. Her hand wringing at the end is her mind arguing with itself whether to go through with the suicide. Where it looks like she's patting the dog - she's just triggering the open sensor one more time.

She wanted to ride the elevator down. You can discern that much from the video.

Like I said, enough with the suicide theories, unless there is evidence or a prior history of suicidal behavior. You then have to provide explanations for why in LA, why a water tank, her gifts for family, her plans to go to Santa Cruz, why she chose the last day in LA instead of the first day, how the lid was closed, or why the police missed an open lid, why she went on the roof naked, why she wanted to take the elevator down.

If "mental illness" is the only explanation for "why", then that's not enough.

 

[Robert White]

You asked why we assumed the perp was a male. I gave my answer: Based on stats, commons sense, logic. I have researched enough of these cases - including the bizarre outliers - to know that assuming the perp is a male is the logical thing to do.

LE doesn't look at every possibility known to man. That's impossible. They look at what is probable and what the evidence points to, first. They begin branching out from there. You know that.

Respectfully, this board is not comprised of LE. This board is a open forum where it seems all ideas are open and welcomed. Debating, refuting, and supporting are all part of the act of finding the how and why. We, as a board have looked at many angles, many of them way out there. However, those are opinions and I respect that people have the courage to put them out there. I may not agree with them professionally, and I am ask them to elaborate, but that is all. Yes, I agree that the perp is a male. Absolutely. However, you are not LE. I am certainly not LE. So why is it that we cannot open up to the possibility and explore the female aspect?

I get where you are going with this, trust me I do. If we were in the field, or conducting an assessment together, I'd be the same way. But we're not. Lighten up and explore some alternate possibilities to the case. Do you see me refute and close down every opinion on the possibility of someone being in the video? Not at all. I know what I see, and I know it is based off professional experience and very well trained men that help me in my own development. In my mind I am right. But that does not take away from these folks who take time out of their day to put their ideas out there.

<modsnip>

 

[CodeNoob]

Quick question: did news confirm that her body was naked? I remember a few days ago it was still not confirmed.

 

[ceefry23]

If she was being considerate, she would have left a suicide note for her family. But from the sounds of her interaction with the bookstore clerk the last day she was seen alive, she was talking about how much stuff she could buy and carry back home. I don't think someone intent on killing themselves would have such a conversation.

You're missing the context of considerate I am using. This is a I don't want to be a bother kind of considerate not I need to write a note considerate. Apparently suicide notes are rare. Plus who knows if she planned to bring those items back. Maybe she had the idea to buy them as last gifts of rememberance and assumed they would be sent back.

How about the possibility of assisted suicide?? Ie ill OD and I need you to put my body here where it won't be found. Maybe she was thinking no one would find her there.

Assisted suicide is definitely an option in my books. There are many creeps on the Internet looking to "help" with that in any way possible and often are quite encouraging. Perhaps the assistant had a plan drawn up for her that included the water tanks who knows.

 

[necco]

The search with the dogs was soon after she was reported missing so they were looking for a missing (alive) person.

If she was deceased and wrapped in plastic bags then I doubt they would hit upon her scent. Maybe "hermetically sealed" is appropriate

My first reply was in regard to your post about "not discounting suicide as a possibility"... so, I was disagreeing with that aspect.

**She would have to be "alive" to commit suicide, thus the dogs would hit upon her scent

I think I said "IF (and that's a big if)" about suicide... I think it's more likely she was murdered or killed negligently and hidden.

If she was wrapped in plastic, why unwrap her before dropping her in?

And what I was saying that whether she was alive for an hour on the roof or brought to the roof in a reasonable amount of time after her death, some dogs would detect that as the same thing. IF those dogs were scent dogs, it wouldn't necessarily matter if she was alive or dead for a period of time when she was on the roof. And obviously, she was on the roof at some point. So unless she was kept dead somewhere for several days, there is a decent chance the dogs missed something. They aren't robots. Conditions vary. They're only human, so to speak.

 

[Sillybilly]

If she was being considerate, she would have left a suicide note for her family. But from the sounds of her interaction with the bookstore clerk the last day she was seen alive, she was talking about how much stuff she could buy and carry back home. I don't think someone intent on killing themselves would have such a conversation.

Would be interesting to know if any books or gifts, or receipts for such items from his store, were found with Elisa's belongings.

 

[ceefry23]

In our area there was a beloved teacher who at once needed to be out of this world and loved her family. Her body was never found as she apparently jumped into the ocean from a very high cliff. And near the cliff she left her van full of presents for her family. But no suicide note.

In Elisa's case there is a similarity in that she had been purchasing presents for her family that evening. And she appears to attempt to disappear - literally crawls into a hole and dies. That - as opposed to an ugly roof jump, or self shooting or hanging. Those make a different statement. This seems the most likely explanation to me at the moment.

That does sound very similar! Perhaps the gifts were arranged in a certain manner in her room that suggests they are final gifts? Making suicide seem like her plausable plan. But the tape shows what could be something different so they release the tape just in case it was staged or was foul play?

If she was headed to the roof to end it all however, I would imagine a more serious and deep at thought version of Elisa. Not a frightened/drugged/psychotic version as seen in the tape.

If you watch the documentary called Golden Gate Bridge suicides - almost every person stands there serious in thought sometimes for a whole day before they jump. None are happy - none are playful.

Furthermore if you're going to kill yourself don't you think you would take the stairs? What's the hurry?

 

[librarian12372]

I definitely see the marks on the tank and I don't think those were done by the boots of the fireman. I actually can see them on both sides of the tank (near the lid and on the other side too) and to Me what it looks like is something heavy laid on top, such as a body, then maneuvered and slid around a bit side to side. Such as the moving of a body that you just flopped off your should that is possibly covering a lid that you need to remove. Does anyone else see this?

Think about this, the dirt/grime up there is probably set in a bit and I don't see specific footprints on there. So what would be heavy enough to make those marks in the dirt?

I thought the same thing--those are some interesting markings. The ones with lines of 3 almost look as if two people lowered themselves off of the tank, starting with holding on to the pipe and lowering off the sides. I am hoping they dusted and searched for fibers or skin up there; I can imagine that being out in the elements has left a residue on top of the tanks.

 

[gitana1]

The "A" looks totally different from the postcard. Just a coincidence in my opinion, I doubt she put the graffiti there.

The "A" is in lowercase in the postcard fragment. In the graffiti on the roof it looks to be in caps.

Elisa mentions in her blog that when she is very depressed, she sleeps for a long time. When you are depressed, you can barely move, much less climb a fire escape to get into a water tank.

Spending money, being very outgoing and social as reported by the hostel owner in Toronto, going out to speakeasy in San Diego, and the way she acted in the video seems to indicate she was hypomanic, not depressed. Depressed people do not plan vacations to multiple locations.

I still think she met up with someone who was also staying at the hotel, someone who knew the property well, and that person knows what happened to her.

Just one little thing about depression though (although I doubt she was depressed when she died), how does any depressed person get the energy to commit suicide?

The thing about suicide and depression is that once the person decides they can;t handle the sadness and pain anymore, and decide to end their life, the depression tends to lift a bit. They suddenly seem happy. They have some energy back and then bang:

If someone you know:

• Talks about wanting to die, not seeing the point or a way out of their situation
• Has been through stressful life events or experienced significant losses and doesn't seem to be coping
• Gives away prized possessions
• Starts putting things in order e.g. arranging wills, pet or childcare
• Shows marked changes in behaviour, appearance or mood, they seem distracted, sad, distant or lacking concentration. Also watch out for sudden uplift in mood or calmness as this can sometimes be because the person feels they have found a solution to their problems, no matter how drastic this may be
• Has made a previous suicide attempt

...they may be at risk of suicide.http://www.edspace.org.uk/default.asp?page=23&fsid=12

Warning Signs Of Suicide

• depression
• anger or hostility
• guilt
• promiscuity
• insomnia
• impulsivity
• isolation or withdrawl
• loss of appetite
• inability to feel pleasure
• excessive substance use
• preoccupation with death
• hopelessness, helplessness
• absence from work or school
• giving things away that are valued
• sudden uplift in mood after depression
• inability to carry out normal tasks of daily life
• ending significant relationships or commitments
• sudden change in behavior or disruptive behavior
• thoughts, words, or actions that are "end centered"http://www.mixednuts.net/suicide-warning.html

Are There Warning Signs of Suicide?

Warning signs that someone may be thinking about or planning to commit suicide include:

• Always talking or thinking about death
• Clinical depression -- deep sadness, loss of interest, trouble sleeping and eating -- that gets worse
• Having a "death wish," tempting fate by taking risks that could lead to death, such as driving fast or running red lights
• Losing interest in things one used to care about
• Making comments about being hopeless, helpless, or worthless
• Putting affairs in order, tying up loose ends, changing a will
• Saying things like "it would be better if I wasn't here" or "I want out"
• Sudden, unexpected switch from being very sad to being very calm or appearing to be happy
• Talking about suicide or killing one's self
• Visiting or calling people to say goodbye

http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-recognizing-signs-of-suicide

I just wanted to make sure to say that in case someone thinks a very depressed person would not have the energy to commit suicide. That could be a fatal mistake.

 

[manlet]

What tourist happens to know there is a water tank on top of the roof of the Hotel they're staying at? or just happens to find a way to the rooftop without sounding the alarm or notifying someone? A person who has lived at the hotel a long time or someone on the hotel staff is responsible for her murder IMO. Someone who knows the hotel well enough to get a body up to the roof and dump it in a water tank is responsible for her murder.

The hotel is a "residential hotel" for welfare and low-income recipients, it's one of the cheapest hotels in all of Los Angeles due to the restrictions set forth by the City of Los Angeles . You can read the hotel owner's comment he wrote on a blog back in 2008 about the problems the city of L.A. has given him to renovate the Cecil Hotel: http://www.joeydevilla.com/2008/11/...-or-my-review-of-the-cecil-hotel-los-angeles/

William Lanting | November 3, 2008 at 5:20 pm

Well, shucks Joey. Thanks for the, er, kind words? My company manages the Cecil Hotel and, had you asked, I would have been happy to clear a few things up for you. First of all, we realize that the Cecil needs a renovation. In fact, we have plans drawn up to renovate the entire building and convert most of it into a mid-priced Best Western Hotel. We thought it was a great idea. The area would get a newly-renovated hotel to serve this rapidly gentrifying neighborhood and the almost-broke City of Los Angeles gets about a million bucks per year in increased occupancy taxes. A win-win situation, right? That’s when the City of Los Angeles stopped us dead in our tracks.

You see, several years ago, Councilwoman Jan Perry and the Los Angeles Housing Department decided that the then-in-progress revitalization of this part of town (what most of us currently call the “Loft District”) was a bad thing…bad for the down-on-their-luck low-income residents that used to populate this area to the exclusion of almost everyone else. Afraid that the newly-relocating loft dwellers would displace the drug dealers, prostitutes and welfare recipients who called the area home, they enacted the “Temporary Control Ordinance” (which later morphed into the current “Permanent Control Ordinance”). This ordinance more-or-less arbitrarily placed a whole bunch of downtown hotels on the “Residential Hotels” list. The stated guidelines they established were these: If – on October 15, 2005 – more than 50% of a downtown hotel’s “guests” were actually residents who considered the facility their primary residence, then onto the list you went. In fact, only about 30% of the Cecil Hotel’s guests were of this variety at the time. Nevertheless, the Cecil Hotel was tossed on the list with all of the others. So, the owners of this hotel are now forever bound by law to remain a “residential hotel” for the benefit of low-income residents. If you think that this sounds an awful lot like an Eminent Domain taking, then you would be correct…eminent domain without compensation, which is very specifically against the Constitution of the United States. Doesn’t matter, nobody has the wherewithall to challenge the ordinance, so that is that. Like they say, you can’t fight city hall.

Well, not exactly, the owners of the Cecil Hotel HAVE sued the City of Los Angeles over this issue. We also continue to operate the hotel exactly as it was operated prior to October 15, 2005 which, surprisingly enough, is allowed under the Ordinance. In fact, all you must do to comply with the Ordinance is to make rooms AVAILABLE to low-income residents…at market rates! Huh? It seems obvious that low income tenants can’t afford to pay the now much-higher rents that area apartments are fetching. Yes, well Ms. Perry and the LAHD didn’t think that one through entirely. Unfortunately, though, the Ordinance does make it almost impossible for us to realize our Best Western dreams because combining two rooms into one (and adding bathrooms to each) effectively removes one guestroom from those that are supposed to remain available to low-income residents. Crazy, huh? A lose-lose situation if ever I saw one. So what do you do?

At this hotel, we have done as much as we can. We removed all of the prostitutes and drug dealers from the building. We still have 66 full-time residents, most of whom are on welfare, but they are (for the most part) good rent-paying, law-abiding people…some of whom have been here for several decades. In addition, we have two floors of college dorm-style rooms that house students from five local colleges. We also created Stay, which you mentioned only briefly in your article. Stay is, essentially, a very upscale youth hostel. (You can see for yourself at http://www.stay-hotels.net). This 138-room hostel-within-a-hotel is freshly renovated and very popular with backpacking European tourists and others looking for a hip place to stay for not much dough. You should have checked in yourself. It is an entirely different experience from the rest of the Cecil Hotel.

The storefront guestrooms you also mentioned in your article are actually part of a one-month promotion for Stay. You can see more at http://www.stayinabubble.com.

So, that brings us back to the Cecil Hotel. We continue to proceed with our plans for Marty and Nip and Tuck. Although, the City has put up one roadblock after another. I guess our $40 million lawsuit hurt their feelings. But, we preserve. However, until the lawsuit is resolved, the Cecil Hotel remains as it has been. It is a cheap place to stay, that is for sure. Rooms here are half of what they would be anywhere else downtown. And, there is a big market for that…cheap rooms, clean and prostitute-free. Apparently, you are not in the Cecil’s target demographic set. So, I am sorry that you were disappointed with your visit to the Cecil. But thanks for the trashing nevertheless.

 

[Shlock Homes]

You're missing the context of considerate I am using. This is a I don't want to be a bother kind of considerate not I need to write a note considerate. Apparently suicide notes are rare. Plus who knows if she planned to bring those items back. Maybe she had the idea to buy them as last gifts of rememberance and assumed they would be sent back.

How about the possibility of assisted suicide?? Ie ill OD and I need you to put my body here where it won't be found. Maybe she was thinking no one would find her there.

Assisted suicide is definitely an option in my books. There are many creeps on the Internet looking to "help" with that in any way possible and often are quite encouraging. Perhaps the assistant had a plan drawn up for her that included the water tanks who knows.

But that method 'she chose' was far from considerate. It was somewhat elaborate, shocking, and bizarre.

I think we're stretching things a bit now trying to suggest she took her life, or even bothered asking someone to do it for her. If she fell of the side of the building that would be more believable than dunking herself on a rooftop water tank. The placing of the body in the water tank was to hide her body long enough for the evidence trail to go cold (i.e. the perp probably took off long ago)

 

[medsleuth]

I got where you were coming from. "Considerate" has to be a relative term for someone whose mind is so addled they are going to punch their own E-ticket. Suicide just about always is awful for the people left behind. There are of course angry "F-YOU" suicides. But then there are the "my world is so black, I feel so crappy about myself or just so sad or hopeless I just want out of here" suicides. And thinking of the pain their suicide would bring to their loved ones would just make them feel still worse and hopeless.

You're missing the context of considerate I am using. This is a I don't want to be a bother kind of considerate not I need to write a note considerate. Apparently suicide notes are rare. Plus who knows if she planned to bring those items back. Maybe she had the idea to buy them as last gifts of rememberance and assumed they would be sent back.

How about the possibility of assisted suicide?? Ie ill OD and I need you to put my body here where it won't be found. Maybe she was thinking no one would find her there.

Assisted suicide is definitely an option in my books. There are many creeps on the Internet looking to "help" with that in any way possible and often are quite encouraging. Perhaps the assistant had a plan drawn up for her that included the water tanks who knows.

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

I must say I really have trouble imagining anyone bringing the body up any ladder. It sounds like such incredible amount of work. Heck, just throwing it over the roof could have made it look like suicide.

Really, even with two persons, it would be very difficult to bring a body up a ladder. In fact it doesn't help at all with two persons as it was stated before. You'd need to pull it up with a ladder, unless you had a HUGE backpack and were strong enough to carry it on your back with the body inside.

All of this sounds so fat fetched. It really does seem like the likely scenario would have been her going inside it herself, or else multiple people working together to get her in it.