GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[Chewy]

It’s not really correct to say “the woman...had sex with him,” since we don’t know this. Something like “by some accounts is said to have had” would be a better way to state it.

[Personally, I think it would be kinder for all of us to drop discussion of this particular detail. Especially since at this point it seems like TK had only an indirect connection to SS’s death, i.e., by not showing up that day. Just MOO.]

I thought it was proven? If it's just alleged, I can't see why TK would implicate himself like that, after all this is a murder, if it wasn't true.

I don't think TK was involved at all. But I do agree that who she slept with seems irrelevant at this point.

I was speaking more to the statements that suggested that something was suspicious about him not meeting her that day.

There's plenty of possibilities to explain it, that was just one example. Maybe he thought it was a one time thing that went a little too far and he wanted to put distance between them again.

Sleeping with a married woman is a very bad thing to do in Islam. It's worse than just regular adultery. Ex a married man cheating on his wife with a single woman is not considered as bad as a man sleeping with a married woman.

 

[Chewy]

Of course I wouldn't know her laundry habits. But it seems to me Turkish housewives are always washing laundry and hanging "snow white" laundry they are proud of. I may be wrong of course.

So true, my MIL used to do this in Cyprus seemed like every day, hanging in the garden.

 

[Blackydress]

The endless discussion about the mental health of Z is not serving any purpose IMO.
We do not know if he killed SS.
Whoever did was not in a 'normal state of mind'.
Since it's improbable that the killer acted in self defense against a 5.2, 110 lb woman
one can assume it was a murder.
That is all we know.

Thank you for this post. Really, I could not agree more.
Autopsy report is not due for 2 months. LE does not have a perfect DNA match, but a slight resemblance.
All we know is that it was a murder...

 

[zarra30]

I asked a Puerto Rican friend of mine what he thought about the case. He hadn't followed much of it but said:

"A PR girl from the city? Probably some little punk snatched her bag she chased him. Don't matter her size. You don't know what was in her bag. Could be her last dollar, stuff from her kids, her man.
Punk got away and she ran into the junkie guy."

The more I think about it, it makes sense to me.

 

[ktgirl]

I asked a Puerto Rican friend of mine what he thought about the case. He hadn't followed much of it but said:

"A PR girl from the city? Probably some little punk snatched her bag she chased him. Don't matter her size. You don't know what was in her bag. Could be her last dollar, stuff from her kids, her man.
Punk got away and she ran into the junkie guy."

The more I think about it, it makes sense to me.

I agree.

 

[ThinkHard]

I totally agree. Somebody working for the government, would not end by the historical walls also would not stay in a sketchy neighborhood and in a cheap hotel. According to crime experts we watched on TV, if she were an undercover agent, she would just disappear and be never heard from again. I doubt she would be a member of an online community like IG with hundreds of followers. What kind of a cover is that for an agent you know?

I agree, but who on ths board is claiming SS was a spy working for the government?

 

[alpmighty]

The involvement of the CIA now seems like a contrived excuse to get into Turkey and investigate.

Rationally, CIA would investigate in Syria, as they already have a strong presence in regards to the ongoing mayhem there.

CIA already have an elevated official presence in Turkey as well. Turkish Station is the largest and probably the most important in the area.

 

[Chewy]

But his family never said he was mentally ill. They said he was unstable and naive, you are assuming that by this they meant mentally ill. But unstable and naive does not mean mentally ill. I seriously doubt anyone in his family has the education to diagnose mental illness. Their words are based on their perception of his refusal for their help. It is not a complete, or perhaps even accurate picture of who he is. His own family also said he only came home for a few days every 2-3 years. How well did they really know a brother who had lived on the streets since age 11, and only came home every few years. I doubt they knew him well. Families can often not have an accurate perception of family members because if their own biases. How many teens commit suicide, and the family is in shock, how many married couples are perfect strangers. My point is family perception isn't exactly a gold standard on truth.

I think this is a semantic discussion. He's homeless and his family said he is "unstable" I'm not diagnosing the guy, I'm just pointing out that there have been plenty of cases of mentally unstable people snapping one day and doing something like this even though they have never had a history of violence or crime. He already has a history of theft. So it's not a surprise that he MAY have attacked her in a mugging.

He MAY also have just come upon her body after the fact and stole some items. I've said that as well. But it seems unlikely if the DNA under her nails matched his.

The reason the mental instability is important is because people are saying that because he never had a history like this, it doesn't make sense. My examples were pointing out that if a person is mentally unstable or ill, and one day goes over the top, it's not really that surprising at all.

Look at Casey Anthony? Look at the Sandy Hook shootings? Look at Columbine?

It does happen.

 

[Chewy]

Rationally, CIA would investigate in Syria, as they already have a strong presence in regards to the ongoing mayhem there.

CIA already have an elevated official presence in Turkey as well. Turkish Station is the largest and probably the most important in the area.

It does seem a little too convenient IMO. I would not put it past them to make up a suspicion about the poor woman just to create excuses to poke around and investigate over there.

You know better than I do about what goes on in Turkey and Syria.

 

[alpmighty]

Which to your point makes it doubtful, that his mental issues were of the type to cause such violence.

For me, the best indicator of Ziya's mental instability is his previous stated patterns of behavior and his family's account of him.

Sleuthers here may or may not caught the media reports that Ziya's brother despises how he came under pressure regarding Ziya's possible involvement to the murder and he is thinking of organizing a march to Ankara, the capitol, to speed up Ziya's apprehension by LE and to coerce Ziya to give himself up. Ziya's brother even went on to say that he is ashamed to go out and to see people as he feels they view him badly for Ziya's possible involvement in the murder of SS.

 

[alpmighty]

He MAY also have just come upon her body after the fact and stole some items. I've said that as well. But it seems unlikely if the DNA under her nails matched his.

That was another angle I found rational before as well. However, ever since it was reported that Ziya's DNA was a positive match to a blood stain on SS shirt, I came to view Ziya being the actual perp with more confidence.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think this is a semantic discussion. He's homeless and his family said he is "unstable" I'm not diagnosing the guy, I'm just pointing out that there have been plenty of cases of mentally unstable people snapping one day and doing something like this even though they have never had a history of violence or crime. He already has a history of theft. So it's not a surprise that he MAY have attacked her in a mugging.

He MAY also have just come upon her body after the fact and stole some items. I've said that as well. But it seems unlikely if the DNA under her nails matched his.

The reason the mental instability is important is because people are saying that because he never had a history like this, it doesn't make sense. My examples were pointing out that if a person is mentally unstable or ill, and one day goes over the top, it's not really that surprising at all.

Look at Casey Anthony? Look at the Sandy Hook shootings? Look at Columbine?

It does happen.

The problem with every one of those examples is that everyone of those perps snapped in their teens/early adult years....not at age 40. (Also in the spirit of being respectful Casey Anthony was found innocent, so despite personal beliefs on the case I think it is unfair to label her as a perp, and she also had plenty of documented odd behavior before that) z was 40!

The likelyhood of Z being being unstable in a way he snapped is in my opinion only a 50/50 possibility.

And because it is only 50/50, there is still plenty of room to explore other theories. And though new theories can be doubted and explored, and questioned, proposing ideas should not be shot down.

 

[alpmighty]

I seriously doubt we will ever know much of that day, except that it was Sarai's last.

To experience Istanbul was her first wish in exploring a different culture and it also turned out to be her last. Yet, we couldn't even completely grant that. For me, that irony made her case even sadder.

I wish she had seen "the Mediterranean". She would have loved it. I think it is so her type.

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/5263/jpbig11od8.jpg

For those of you who don't know: The Mediterranean is a scuplture, by Turkish sculptor Ilhan Koman, personifying the Mediterranean Sea in the form of a female body made up of 120 metal strips, which creates an effect of rippling waves.

This feels weird. I was thinking of mentioning the Mediterranean on my final post in the forum.


And I knew that death was an arrow
let fly from an unknown hand
and in the flicker of an eye we die

- Octavio Paz (The Bird)

...

And I was just listening to Carry On Wayward Son by Kansas as I saw your post.

Carry on my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more

We owe Sarai and her family the justice they deserve. Only after they will be at peace.

 

[Chewy]

He went to jail for theft, he gave up his apartment to live on the street and collect garbage and you don't see a "history" of unstable behavior?

His brother seems to, until I hear otherwise I'm going with him. It's quite telling that the brother isn't saying he's innocent.

 

[ThinkHard]

Reasonable theories, not joking around when someone is dead. It just seems tasteless IMO.

You said that Z was ordered to kidnap a woman (maybe the one in the river who was an operative or something) and that he mistakenly grabbed Sarai.

Is that not what you said?

I did. But I never said anything regarding the nationality of the woman in the water. We have not heard anything about her nationality.

 

[alpmighty]

I agree, but who on ths board is claiming SS was a spy working for the government?

Turkish media initially speculated in that way, and later reporters picking up what we are discussing here picked up and fueled that speculation.

 

[ThinkHard]

For me, the best indicator of Ziya's mental instability is his previous stated patterns of behavior and his family's account of him.

Sleuthers here may or may not caught the media reports that Ziya's brother despises how he came under pressure regarding Ziya's possible involvement to the murder and he is thinking of organizing a march to Ankara, the capitol, to speed up Ziya's apprehension by LE and to coerce Ziya to give himself up. Ziya's brother even went on to say that he is ashamed to go out and to see people as he feels they view him badly for Ziya's possible involvement in the murder of SS.

His family barely saw him. How do they know what he was like?
Family is often not a very accurate view of their own family members....they have to many biases.

 

[Blackydress]

I agree, but who on this board is claiming SS was a spy working for the government?

Did I misunderstand? I did not say "people are claiming". Why are people mentioning the involvement of CIA? Does undercover agent means something else? CIA's jurisdiction is totally different than FBI. Why would CIA be involved in this case?

 

[ThinkHard]

Turkish media initially speculated in that way, and later reporters picking up what we are discussing here picked up and fueled that speculation.

That was ages ago though, like many threads back, recently on this board no one has said that SS was a spy. So I'm not really understanding you trying to prove she couldn't have been, no one is arguing otherwise.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think if she was another American we'd have heard about it by now. I guess back to agree to disagree, I think it's a ridiculous theory.

We wouldn't hear if she was undercover, and that was precisely the point.