IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29
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Can one enter Smallwood without an exterior key? Is more than one key needed to get into a specific apartment? What type of key? I am confused about the keys left in the alley vs. the card key JR said she had with her.
I wonder if when JW went looking for LS the next day, he did so in part thinking she might have spent the night at 5N. That might have been a logical, albeit unwelcome, conclusion on his part.
I cant recall any....I think that HT gave the only interviews in June 2011......
I think the first part about CR sounds likely. but keep in mind: Lauren didn't go home with CR earlier in the night when she could have walked there herself. She only ended up there after she was totally incapacitated and CR picked her up off the floor at Smallwood and carried and dragged her home.
There are several witnesses who all say the same thing. After Kilroys, she was 'staggering', 'falling', 'in a stupor'... she couldn't walk, or it seems, even talk. They also say CR was acting aggressive and inappropriately. So, it doesn't sound to me like she was leaving her phone behind or not calling people on purpose because she liked CR and wanted to secretly be alone with him (If that were the case, why not just turn off her ringer) I think she just got messed up really fast, and as soon as she did, CR took her away from the bar. He probably didn't bother looking for the shoes or phone. (He didn't pick up her purse when she dropped it later either).
It seems like he wanted to be alone with her and wasn't easily going to be deterred. He didn't care that she was too out of it to walk or that she was falling and injuring herself. And he didn't care that others called him on this, and told him to take her home. That's pretty unusual, IMO, and that's when this crosses the line from being something that could look like a typical night out drinking with friends to something more dangerous. CR was punched in the face, then picked Lauren up and left with her anyway, telling at least two different witnesses to basically get lost and that things were under control.
Whatever LS might have thought about CR earlier in the night doesn't matter at that point because she was, by all accounts, too intoxicated to even walk on her own without injuring herself let alone consent to anything. I know people here don't like considering the possibility of sexual assault. But I've got to ask: What do you guys think his intentions were, dragging an incapacitated girl he'd known for one week home at 4 am?
This is, IMO, the most important thing about this case. We may not have evidence, but we have a lot of red flags that point to the possibility of a sexual assault, so I think it's something that's got to be considered. When you factor it in, it puts all of the other scenarios we talk about into a totally different light. Like, why wouldn't people call for help if Lauren was in distress? Because they were worried about drugs? What if they also had to worry about her being unconscious and assaulted, with bruises on her face? Or even conscious and telling someone? Usually in the cases of 'acquaintance rape' people depend on being able to act like it wasn't an assault because both people were drunk and consented. In this case, CR would be in trouble because of the altercation at Smallwood and the witnesses who saw him dragging Lauren home.
CR comes across to me as an impulsive person who cares more about self-preservation than he does about Lauren, and who will not take responsibility for anything. I think this says a lot about what his decision making process could have been like if you add in being drunk or high, angry and humiliated (from the fight), scared, etc.
But CR is alibied by MB and JR (and presumably by two other people in JR's apartment). MB claims he took LS to JR's, and JR supports that idea.
While MB is CR's friend, JR doesn't seem such a good friend that he would lie for CR and make himself the last known person to have seen LS, if this wasn't the case.
While MB is CR's friend, JR doesn't seem such a good friend that he would lie for CR and make himself the last known person to have seen LS, if this wasn't the case.
There was one where he made misleading statements about a poly and his dad threatened to unleash a poodle on the reporter.
ETA: Here you go: http://www.lohud.com/article/201107...he-s-taken-polygraph-mother-issues-new-appeal
No one is alibied by anyone. They haven't officially said anything. I don't have any firm theory, but I suspect they were all at the same apartment, or that JR was called over to MB an CR's when MB says he called before bringing Lauren over. I honestly don't know what to think, but I think they are lying about the story (/stories) that they have 'unofficially' told people so far. So that leads me to believe something bad happened at that point -- i.e. the point where MB can't decide if lauren left while he was upstairs, whether he saw her leave or took her to JR's.
If he was telling the truth, this would not be a complicated thing to remember or communicate to others.
If CR was telling the truth, and she had left his place, then went to JR's and was fine when she left there, why would he need to lie about what condition she was in when she left Smallwood with him earlier in the night?
Ixchel13
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I wonder if this has ever happened to anyone here: You go out with a bunch of friends, and yes, you get pretty wasted, everybody has a really wild fun time. But when you are recounting it, with the same friends, you say yeah, I went here and did this and someone says, "No you didn't, remember, you did this." You say that you don't think you did, and a few others say that you did. Sometimes someone else either agrees with you, or disagrees with both of you and says no, they saw something different altogether happen. Gradually, with everyone chiming in, the evening is reconstructed. This is called everyone involved was getting drunk (at least) and not everyone remembers what all actually went on.
Now, take that story, and add the fact that one of the friends went missing and may be dead, and different people involved are threatened with murder charges and all have seperate attorneys. will their stories match?
Very, very doubtful. IMO, everyone is lying. and I mean everyone from HTto ZO to JW to JW's roommates to the POIs, the employees at Kilroys and even the witness outside 10th and College. What they are all lying about is crazy because they could all be lying except for one thing: They
didn't abduct LS or hide her body. What if they are all innocent? If they knew they were innocent, there is nothing to gain for them to admit selling/taking/giving anyone involved drugs. If they were hiding Lauren's phone so they could give it to JW, since they didn't abduct her, they might not want to say, "yeah, while I was going here or there to get drugs, I also had Lauren's phone." I think there's a general feeling out there in studentville that it's very competitive in the real world, and a drug charge could keep them out of law school, fortune five hundred companies, politics, and med school.
There could have been others at JRs who saw Lauren leave. LE has almost admitted that there were others. There are alot of reasons why LE wouldn't clear JR, even if they know he is innocent. They could actually be protecting him from prosecution/retribution because he did finger someone. They could feel he is a lowlife who probably gave her the drugs so they don't feel sorry for him. They could have another good suspect and want them to feel secure
and screw up somehow, again, Bloomington LE has little sympathy for spoiled druggie students and probably don't give a fig for these POIs or what it could do to their lives. Maybe they figure these kids have it coming because they CAN walk away from this situation where they obviously contributed to her demise but maybe didn't kill or abduct her or hide her body.
IMO, when this is solved, and it will be solved, everyone is going to be surprised.
Abbey, something you just said in your above post got me thinking about CR's level of intoxication.
While we know that Lauren was much worse off than CR due to witness statements and video surveillance (she was barely functioning), CR's role as the one who was assisting her in getting around caused me to wonder-- just how intoxicated was he? I am inclined to think he also did drugs/drank on that night, but I have wondered how coherent he was (clearly he was able to walk and talk when seen by witnesses). There was the story about CR vomiting on the floor at his apartment (I would hope LE was able to confirm this with forensics), but with the "head injury" noise, I don't know what the vomit is supposedly attributed to (intoxication, head injury, or I have wondered if it was actually a reaction to Lauren dying).
Anyways, Abbey you mentioned that CR failed to pick up Lauren's personal items that she dropped. I am not surprised that he did not grab her items from Kilroy's (it was probably busy, crowded and he might not have known where they were). But, when they were walking along alone and she dropped her personal items (found shortly thereafter by two young men I believe) I don't know why he wouldn't have picked them up, it seems that in the quiet alone he would have noticed her drop these items. Could it be that he just didn't care and wanted to get Lauren back to 5N ASAP? Maybe. Or maybe his hands were too full supporting Lauren.
But perhaps he was also pretty intoxicated and did not notice the items dropped or have the ability at that time to pick them up while also helping Lauren along. In comparison to Lauren it appears he was pretty high-functioning, but I do think it's possible he could have been "black out" drunk (In college I experienced being in this state while functioning and still assisting others). This would explain his vomit and his memory lapses (if the lack of memories is the truth).
I don't know what my point is, I guess just that if it is true CR were pretty highly intoxicated as well then I may believe that he actually was put to bed by MB upon arrival at 5N and that he lacks some memory from that night.
I'm not sure what to think though because the 'head injury' story sure does create a lot of noise when trying to determine CR's level of intoxication vs. the amnesia story.
On the other hand, it's entirely possible that CR was somewhat sober as he seemed to be fairly busy dealing with Lauren. If CR was planning on "hooking up" with Lauren that night, perhaps he held off on getting extremely drunk-- so that he could, err, "perform".
I'd love to see the video of CR carrying Lauren over his shoulder while walking in the alley. I'd love to know if he is weaving or staggering at all... or if he is pounding pavement in a straight line looking quite sober.
JMO
While we know that Lauren was much worse off than CR due to witness statements and video surveillance (she was barely functioning), CR's role as the one who was assisting her in getting around caused me to wonder-- just how intoxicated was he? I am inclined to think he also did drugs/drank on that night, but I have wondered how coherent he was (clearly he was able to walk and talk when seen by witnesses). There was the story about CR vomiting on the floor at his apartment (I would hope LE was able to confirm this with forensics), but with the "head injury" noise, I don't know what the vomit is supposedly attributed to (intoxication, head injury, or I have wondered if it was actually a reaction to Lauren dying).
Anyways, Abbey you mentioned that CR failed to pick up Lauren's personal items that she dropped. I am not surprised that he did not grab her items from Kilroy's (it was probably busy, crowded and he might not have known where they were). But, when they were walking along alone and she dropped her personal items (found shortly thereafter by two young men I believe) I don't know why he wouldn't have picked them up, it seems that in the quiet alone he would have noticed her drop these items. Could it be that he just didn't care and wanted to get Lauren back to 5N ASAP? Maybe. Or maybe his hands were too full supporting Lauren.
But perhaps he was also pretty intoxicated and did not notice the items dropped or have the ability at that time to pick them up while also helping Lauren along. In comparison to Lauren it appears he was pretty high-functioning, but I do think it's possible he could have been "black out" drunk (In college I experienced being in this state while functioning and still assisting others). This would explain his vomit and his memory lapses (if the lack of memories is the truth).
I don't know what my point is, I guess just that if it is true CR were pretty highly intoxicated as well then I may believe that he actually was put to bed by MB upon arrival at 5N and that he lacks some memory from that night.
I'm not sure what to think though because the 'head injury' story sure does create a lot of noise when trying to determine CR's level of intoxication vs. the amnesia story.
On the other hand, it's entirely possible that CR was somewhat sober as he seemed to be fairly busy dealing with Lauren. If CR was planning on "hooking up" with Lauren that night, perhaps he held off on getting extremely drunk-- so that he could, err, "perform".
I'd love to see the video of CR carrying Lauren over his shoulder while walking in the alley. I'd love to know if he is weaving or staggering at all... or if he is pounding pavement in a straight line looking quite sober.
JMO
I could maybe dismiss it if the Wolff's flipped out and acted inappropriately in one interview. But, it does look quite suspicious when they act inappropriately for the situation in every single interview.
I agree with the detective now. There is something fishy here. Nothing would surprise me now.
I believe LE. I think they're not clearing them because they can't.
They did, for the record, clear the white truck and the lunatic with the guns last summer.
I agree. Even IF law enforcement had a pretty good idea that someone else was responsible for Lauren's disappearance, it doesn't appear that at this point they have enough evidence to either clear OR arrest anyone.
At this point, I believe that they wouldn't clear any of these young men without a good solid, evidentiary reason. IMO.
JMO
Ixchel13
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Whenever the cleared white truck gets brought up, or someone says LE wouldn't mislead people, I have to bring up the Mickey Shunick case. They had video footage of Mickey being accosted by BSL, of his truck along side Mickey's bicycle, of the actual crime being committed. To the public, that means us, they released the photo of the truck, but erased Mickey from the picture.
Why did they do that? Well the perp, after seeing his truck in the photo, panicked, went and burned the truck, made all kinds of mistakes renting a car to get back from the burning, then acted super suspicious buying another truck just like it. He was quickly run to ground and arrested.
Several brilliant posters here have amazing capabilities with photo shop and other more sophisticated means of working with photos to reveal glitches, and two or three of them noticed discrepancies in the released photos, one of them even discovered the shadow of the outline they erased of Mickey
alongside his truck.
LE has no duty to reveal to the public any clues, photos, testimony, about an ongoing case unless it suits their purposes. They have no desire to fill us in so we'll know how to look at this case. They probably don't feel in the slightest that if they did tell us, we would be able to help them solve it. If we
send in a tip, and it's helpful, it's very unlikely we'll get a call saying that our tip was a good one. When the LA police raided BSLs trailer while he was on
the oil rig, they found enough evidence at that point to get him. Did they say that? No. When he was arrested and confessed, then LE admitted they had Mickey on camera being abducted from the get-go.
Someone posted here way back in the thread that they have viewed the
area Lauren was supposedly walking down from a private camera source, and she wasn't there, but there was a young skateboarder on the other side of the street, and on Lauren's side a woman pedestrian but not Lauren. From this we were supposed to be able to surmise something according to the poster.
Well, we could surmise that Lauren wasn't on the sidewalk. What about the 10th and College witness who said something vague about doubling back around? If this was our woman pedestrian, our witness, then she could be lying about the time, or she could have seen them first at the steps and
then have been walking in the same area at 4:30. Why? In otherwords, if I were LE and this was the same person, I would want to know WTF she was up to being in both places.
Also, the part about the witness "doubling back around", there are 3 ways to get to 5N from 10th and College. From the steps they were supposedly on and Lauren hit her head, you could
go left and go up College to 11th and College and turn left, and 3 houses down, 5N begins. Or, you could turn right and then quickly right again into the alley, this is the route LS and CR took. The third way is turn right from the steps, but instead of turning into the alley, keep going til you get to the corner of Morton and 10th, turn right again, and go up Morton to 11th, turn right and 5N is right there.
This way, you can walk up the sidewalk, avoiding a dark, rocky, glass-filled rubbly parking lot
behind 5N, again the route CR and LS were taking. If they wanted, when CR and LS came out of the alley, they could turn left onto an unpaved, pot-hole filled, rubbly and scattered with broken glass alley and walk about 150 ft. to the sidewalk on Morton St., and go the rest of the way to the corner and turn right and be right at 5N.
Please don't think I'm defending CR, but the alley they went up is strewn with glass, rocks and pebbles. If Lauren was barefoot, she would probably need a piggyback. If CR was intoxicated or high, this piggyback ride would not look graceful. IMO, she went willingly. If he was trying to hook up, she was not stopping him, but that doesn't mean she wanted to either. Whether or not either of them had the capacity to forward a relationship at that time is highly questionable but they seemed to like each other. He was seen "being forward with her" but maybe they had already set boundaries (kissing?) at Kilroys and this is what sparked the confrontation at SW via forwarded texts (pics?) from Kilroys.
Anyway, this witness could have taken the Morton St. sidewalk way to JRs, arrived there and "doubled back around" to find Lauren and CR. Finally, they all are at JRs.sans CR. The witness is there. Lauren could have left before/after this witness. Whatever happened if she
was snatched would have been fast. If the witness indeed doubled around, it makes perfect sense. From the steps she went all the way west, up the street and then right, and then when leaving, she went down College to where her car probably was to begin with, parked on College
either right before or right by the corner of 10th and College, making a perfect circle around, in this case square.
IMO, it's hard to predict what one friend would do for another. JR and CR did get busted trying to break into SW together the fall before LS disappeared. So they must have been fairly close. But I'd guess that CR and MB were closer. And JR and DB were really close.
But really, all if would take is one impulsive comment to LE. Such a comment could be undone, however.
Ixchel13
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sorry if I was misleading, don't think the truck was involved, it was a weird coincidence that Mickey's case involved two similar trucks and one turned out to be the killer. When the police showed the pictures of the trucks to the public, they erased Mickey being overpowered by the truck as it came alongside her bike. They probably knew he would say his truck was stolen by the perp, so they erased Mickey from the picture--which caused him to
do just that--take his truck down to Texas, burn it, make all these panicky mistakes that tied him squarely to the crime.
I was saying that LE may choose to mislead the nosy public if it gets the job done. Sharing every detail could lead to retribution (murder) of witnesses, and also to people taking the law into their own hands, tipping off perps, whathaveyou.
Here's the actual quote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000877/Lauren-Spierer-missing-Man-seen-memory-moments.html
I haven't seen anything that implies Lauren was interested in Corey. Her friends and JW's roommate both didn't think anything like that was going on, and the description doesn't sound like it was mutual at all.
If she had looked like she was fine and like she was enjoying CR's company, why would all these people try to intervene?
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