GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[ilovewings]

Opinion | What Is This Mother Really Guilty Of?

Jennifer Crumbley’s teenage son killed classmates with a gun she gave him. But she should not be tried for homicide.

www.nytimes.com

This is a wonderful comprehensive article from the New York Times about this case. It is behind a paywall though. There is a reason parents are not usually charged in cases like this-- it is a tall order to get a conviction IMO-- I am torn about whether the parents should be convicted. What bothers me the most is the gun, giving it to him as a present and leaving it unlocked-- was there enough forseeability for the parents to be convicted? Glad I am not on the jury.

 

[scoodyboo]

This case is so troubling - I mean the shooting and murder of the four students. It's so awful. The jury list is interesting and I think it could swing to guilty but may be hung. They have to decide if the prosecution met the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
This USA Today article talks about other cases where a parent was held responsible after a shooting. A couple of the cases listed show that the convictions were for charges much less serious than involuntary manslaughter. These parents could have been charged with a lesser charge.

Personally, I was pleased with the DA charged the parents, thinking it could be a preventative deterrent for other parents to keep guns away from their kids to stop these senseless killings. Now, I am thinking that much of their case was more like a child protection case of neglect to remove a child from a home. If the jurors focus on the gun aspect of this case, maybe they will see that JC was grossly negligent in leaving the gun in the trunk. She had answers for the factors related to forseeability, so we'll see if the jury believes it. (I think, without knowing the evidence obviously, the father's case may be more cut and dried since he bought the gun.) Just like commenters here, some of them may see it very strongly one way or the other.

all my opinion, morning ramblings.

 

[Weki]

LYK made a great point in his post trial coverage last night - the state failed to prove/explain which line was crossed and how. Was it that they didn’t secure the gun properly? Was it that they didn’t take him to see a psychiatrist? Was it that they didn’t take him out of school that day? Is it all of it? He explains it much better and I’m not doing it justice here but essentially which lines were crossed to get to involuntary manslaughter? Because the answer can’t just be they were bad parents so which line was crossed to make these bad parents enter the realm of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE? It is the state’s burden to prove this and argue it to the jury! That was NOT DONE! And all the confusion and discussion in this thread proves it. If there’s this much doubt among us and within ourselves that means JC is not guilty.

Also, McDonald kept saying “it was the little things” and that seems like a horrible choice of words when she’s charged this woman with GROSS NEGLIGENCE. It can’t be “the little things.” Or she needs to explain how the littlest things added to gross negligence. But she failed to do that.

JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

As I posted before, I think JC is quite lucky to have less info coming into her trial.

recap from EC's Miller hearing, 6 months ago

Court appointed psych who conducted the review of EC's records etc
At 14m - 18minutes
- EC age 6, home alone, going to neighbours asking for help eg scared during thundershowers not knowing where parents were
- Age 10. Examples of EC- JC texts with no reply eg. ' When are you coming home?'
- Left to own devices using internet, graphic violence online ( no parental blocks?) Starts fantasising
- Records & EC interview reveal EC threatening to commit suicide from a young age and also having to intervene in parental fights
- Later on, when his favourite dog dies, ' his soulmate', he's tasked to remove the dog from the house and to find out how to dispose of the dog.

20m - 25m
'The Feral child' & how that relates to EC eg Arrested development and lack of social skills, isolation.
March-Oct 2021 Ethan wakes up in their bed & didn't know how he'd got there. The melatonin texts
23m frequent verbal abuse and taunts.
Psych says ' IDK of a 15 year old who raises his hand and asks to see a therapist but it never happens'
Constant arguments, parents, about infidelity, divorce and which parent EC needed to choose when they separated & who he'd would end up with

EC's texts with his only friend B, April 2021.
EC ' My mom thinks I'm taking drugs but she doesn't worry about my mental health.... like I hear people talking to me and I see someone in the distance.... dude IDK what to do....
I effin lost it in the shower but had no memory of that night... my mom said I went outside in shorts and was talking to myself... IDK if that is true, doesn't sound like me and I don't even remember it
More in the screenshot

link for the screenshots

I'll listen to the next half of Psych's evidence later and put it in a 2nd post ( Posts too long otherwise)

 

[cottonweaver]

LYK made a great point in his post trial coverage last night - the state failed to prove/explain which line was crossed and how. Was it that they didn’t secure the gun properly? Was it that they didn’t take him to see a psychiatrist? Was it that they didn’t take him out of school that day? Is it all of it? He explains it much better and I’m not doing it justice here but essentially which lines were crossed to get to involuntary manslaughter? Because the answer can’t just be they were bad parents so which line was crossed to make these bad parents enter the realm of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE? It is the state’s burden to prove this and argue it to the jury! That was NOT DONE! And all the confusion and discussion in this thread proves it. If there’s this much doubt among us and within ourselves that means JC is not guilty.

Also, McDonald kept saying “it was the little things” and that seems like a horrible choice of words when she’s charged this woman with GROSS NEGLIGENCE. It can’t be “the little things.” Or she needs to explain how the littlest things added to gross negligence. But she failed to do that.

JMO

It's pretty bad when it needs a Youtuber ( Dr G) to highlight the glaring ' inconsistencies' in JC on direct. ( As opposed to a prosecutor picking up on them during cross. Dr G shows, among other things how JC literally jumped to ' he must be the shooter' within 30 mins of the Active Shooter alert.

( IDK how many parents of kids in that school - who own guns- who immediately assumed the shooter was their own kid or raced home to check if any guns were missing. My guess? Very few parents at OHS foresaw their child could be the shooter. Many families using OHS have guns)

Only point I'd make about LYK is that the jury have listened to 2 weeks of evidence while LYK rarely ever follows a whole trial. He admits he simply hasn't got the time.

 

[justbeachy]

I thought it was an interesting point made in the defense closing that the Crumbleys already owned 2 guns and that there was no reason for them to believe that buying a 3rd would set this all in motion. The code to the gun safe was apparently 000 (I believe it was Stoyek who testified to this) so the shooter presumably could have had access to the other guns without the 3rd being a necessary piece for him to carry out this awful act. IMO

 

[Weki]

I thought it was an interesting point made in the defense closing that the Crumbleys already owned 2 guns and that there was no reason for them to believe that buying a 3rd would set this all in motion. The code to the gun safe was apparently 000 (I believe it was Stoyek who testified to this) so the shooter presumably could have had access to the other guns without the 3rd being a necessary piece for him to carry out this awful act. IMO

Yes I thought that was an excellent counter point by defense.

I’m also stuck on EC killing baby birds. That’s a sociopath. I feel like he had been following school shooters and knew the right words/excuses to say - “oh I feel useless” etc. These are the serial killers of our times.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Gardenista]

I keep thinking I'd feel better about JC being found guilty if people from the school were also charged.

 

[cottonweaver]

I thought it was an interesting point made in the defense closing that the Crumbleys already owned 2 guns and that there was no reason for them to believe that buying a 3rd would set this all in motion. The code to the gun safe was apparently 000 (I believe it was Stoyek who testified to this) so the shooter presumably could have had access to the other guns without the 3rd being a necessary piece for him to carry out this awful act. IMO

if the jurors missed all the evidence on EC becoming obsessed with specifically getting the 9mm for his plans, Shannon might swing it

 

[MrsWatson]

I thought it was an interesting point made in the defense closing that the Crumbleys already owned 2 guns and that there was no reason for them to believe that buying a 3rd would set this all in motion. The code to the gun safe was apparently 000 (I believe it was Stoyek who testified to this) so the shooter presumably could have had access to the other guns without the 3rd being a necessary piece for him to carry out this awful act. IMO

I think the difference is that this was Ethan's gun. Not anyone else's gun, his. He had made references in social media and his journal when he got it and how pleased he was with it. It was supposed to be an early Christmas present for him.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

I keep thinking I'd feel better about JC being found guilty if people from the school were also charged.

would need to charge the Board at minimum? ( I read the full investigation which Cool Cats linked to. Interesting)



state government too?

'To all our students, our families and staff; and especially the families and friends of Hana and Tate and Justin and Madisyn. We are all deeply sorry," said school board President Heather Shafer as she addressed the 100-plus people in the crowd on behalf of the board.

"Appreciate the apology, but I didn't hear an admission of failure because you failed us," says Buck Myre, the father of shooting victim Tate Myre. He was the first speaker at public comment Tuesday night.
He took a moment to speak with CBS News Detroit and said not just the board needs to answer to their community, but the state government as well.
"It's unfortunate that the government has kicked it down to our school board, and they've been put in a very tough position, but that's a position that you should take serious and you should protect children. You should look after our community, and they don't appear to be doing that," Myre said.
He says he'll take this battle to the grave as he is now looking to state government for responses.

Oxford school board meets for first time since independent investigation release

Stories were shared as the board gathered on Tuesday for the first time following the Oct. 30 release of a nearly 600-page independent investigation into the 2021 shooting at Oxford High School.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[justbeachy]

I think the difference is that this was Ethan's gun. Not anyone else's gun, his. He had made references in social media and his journal when he got it and how pleased he was with it. It was supposed to be an early Christmas present for him.

MOO

I agree having all the information in hindsight. But the parents presumably didn't think he was planning to shoot up the school (who would?!?) so him getting his OWN gun wouldn't be any different than the other 2 existing guns in the home. Of course then you get into his mental state and what they should/should not have been aware of in regards to that, but if they were concerned about his mental state and potential use of a gun in that regard, then either of the other 2 guns should have been enough of a concern without the emphasis of him having his own personal gun. Your point is taken, however I do see another perspective. IMO

 

[Weki]

Maybe it’s just me but the state phoned it in. They didn’t object to Smith’s inappropriate arguments/comments during testimony and they didn’t object to her closing argument where she used her personal life as evidence. McDonald seemed so indignant and outraged in the press/pretrial hearings and acted like a church mouse inside the courtroom. There was no fire to the state’s presentation of evidence.

McDonald in her closing stressed how courageous LE was, how emotional these tough men were, more than JC’s criminal culpability. She wanted to acknowledge the pain and suffering of LE. It seemed like PR for the state. It was a bizarre closing imo. And her saying “I” “I” a lot…. Parents of victims must’ve put a whole lotta pressure to bring the Crumbleys to trial .

 

[Izzylizzy]

As I posted before, I think JC is quite lucky to have less info coming into her trial.

recap from EC's Miller hearing, 6 months ago

Court appointed psych who conducted the review of EC's records etc
At 14m - 18minutes
- EC age 6, home alone, going to neighbours asking for help eg scared during thundershowers not knowing where parents were
- Age 10. Examples of EC- JC texts with no reply eg. ' When are you coming home?'
- Left to own devices using internet, graphic violence online ( no parental blocks?) Starts fantasising
- Records & EC interview reveal EC threatening to commit suicide from a young age and also having to intervene in parental fights
- Later on, when his favourite dog dies, ' his soulmate', he's tasked to remove the dog from the house and to find out how to dispose of the dog.

20m - 25m
'The Feral child' & how that relates to EC eg Arrested development and lack of social skills, isolation.
March-Oct 2021 Ethan wakes up in their bed & didn't know how he'd got there. The melatonin texts
23m frequent verbal abuse and taunts.
Psych says ' IDK of a 15 year old who raises his hand and asks to see a therapist but it never happens'
Constant arguments, parents, about infidelity, divorce and which parent EC needed to choose when they separated & who he'd would end up with

EC's texts with his only friend B, April 2021.
EC ' My mom thinks I'm taking drugs but she doesn't worry about my mental health.... like I hear people talking to me and I see someone in the distance.... dude IDK what to do....
I effin lost it in the shower but had no memory of that night... my mom said I went outside in shorts and was talking to myself... IDK if that is true, doesn't sound like me and I don't even remember it
More in the screenshot

View attachment 480442

View attachment 480443
View attachment 480444

link for the screenshots

I'll listen to the next half of Psych's evidence later and put it in a 2nd post ( Posts too long otherwise)

Did JC lie to James when he asked in a text if she gave EC a Xanax and she answered, "no Melatolin?

iirc: half a pill was mentioned in that text exchange?


'Another time, Anacker said, Crumbley recalled taking half of one of his mom's sleeping pills, and wound up in the driveway walking in shorts, saying he was seeing someone.

"To your knowledge, he never saw a doctor," Loftin asked the expert.

He did not, Anacker responded.

Psychiatrist: Crumbley told me he attempted suicide in weeks before shooting | Live updates

A prosecution psychiatrist said that Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley told his parents on his 15th birthday he wanted to see a therapist.

www.freep.com

 

[BeachSky]

Just finished Dr.G.
He doesn't disappoint.
I wish he'd do Shannon Smith.
Thanks again.

I think he is spot on about JC!
JC was operating IMO like Keaton in
‘Looking for Mr Goodbar’ . Presenting as the good mom,wife,horse person but in reality a risk taker hunting for her next thrill. Perhaps EC sought her attention through his risky dark behavior.

All JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

Did JC lie to James when he asked in a text if she gave EC a Xanax and she answered, "no Melatolin?

iirc: half a pill was mentioned in that text exchange?


'Another time, Anacker said, Crumbley recalled taking half of one of his mom's sleeping pills, and wound up in the driveway walking in shorts, saying he was seeing someone.

"To your knowledge, he never saw a doctor," Loftin asked the expert.

He did not, Anacker responded.

Psychiatrist: Crumbley told me he attempted suicide in weeks before shooting | Live updates

A prosecution psychiatrist said that Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley told his parents on his 15th birthday he wanted to see a therapist.

www.freep.com

not sure but just reading your link about other testimony from Dr Anacker

' Anacker testified that when Crumbley was in elementary school and living in the state of Washington, he heard his mother yelling on the phone in the middle of the night. Jennifer Crumbley told Ethan that his dad was at a waterfall threatening to commit suicide, Anacker said.

According to Anacker, Ethan Crumbley was put on the phone with his dad, crying, telling him to come home and not kill himself.'

SMH doesn't really cut it.

Obviously I have no idea what was wrong with EC, am not a psych, but he seems to have become very disturbed. Torturing baby animals and salivating over plans to drown children isn't just clinical depression in my layperson's eyes

 

[Izzylizzy]

Did Smith prove to the jury that JC was a "super vigilant" mom?

SUPER definition in American English​

Collins Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com › dictionary › super



super- in British English · 1. placed above or over. superscript · 2. of greater size, extent, quality, etc. supermarket · 3. surpassing others; outstanding.

VIGILANT definition in American English​

Collins Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com › dictionary › vigi...



Someone who is vigilant gives careful attention to a particular problem or situation and concentrates on noticing any danger or trouble that there might be

 

[stmarysmead]

Anyone remember the Diane Whipple case?

'Dog of death': The horrific killing of Diane Whipple

The killing of Diane Whipple remains one of the most emotional and indelible crimes in...

www.sfgate.com

Two lawyers caring for the dog…ignored repeated dangerous behaviors and Diane Whipple died an horrific death. They both went to prison.
in some ways, in my opinion, we can equate the idea of responsibility of care…though in one case its a dog, and in this other case, a child. Providing Ethan, a minor, with a gun while simultaneously ignoring his cries for help, coupled with years of neglect would be enough for me to vote guilty.
Here’s another guity verdict..he did not fix the brakes on the rental limo and people died.

Limo operator found guilty of manslaughter in 2018 Schoharie crash

A jury in the Schoharie limo trial has found the operator of the limousine company involved guilty of manslaughter.

www.wamc.org

This Mother had ample opportunity, IMO, to ‘fix the brakes’ on her mentally struggling son. But her answer was not seeking the help he needed. It was providing him access and training with a gun.

 

[Weki]

I know there’s a lot of disagreement on what was foreseeable to the Crumbley parents but I think that’s where this case falls apart, fundamentally. Is it foreseeable that if you don’t fix the brakes on your limo rental that ppl could get into an accident and be injured? Absolutely! Is it foreseeable if you don’t put your pit bill on a leash he would bite someone? Absolutely.

The foreseeability that if you don’t take your 15 yo home that day he was gonna shoot up the school (or anyone at any point that day or the next) is dicey. Regardless of his drawings. I think the school even said remote learning during Covid had caused a lot of kids to be depressed and sad. Add in the gun culture in that community (school Dean said students draw guns all the time and take pics with guns) and it is reasonable that they wouldn’t forsee it. That doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t have foreseen it in the same position. But it’s not unreasonable to NOT forsee it either. As opposed to someone who says how am I expected to forsee that not fixing the brakes could cause an accident? That’s obv ridiculous.

JMO