Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

[EllaMae]

I keep seeing this phrase, and I always wonder, victim of what? She's not the victim of abduction or murder, sure. That's Kyron. But that doesn't mean she can't be the victim of something else. She, Kaine, Desiree and Tony are all victims of their (step-)child being taken from them. And it is quite possible for Terri to be the victim of police rail-roading and public vilification that completely ruined her life even beyong losing her child. It's not the casting of a play, there's not just one person who can have the role of "victim".



In your opinion, yes. But there has obviously never been evidence for this, not even to convince a Grand Jury that there is probable cause.



If they have done so for thirteen years and nothing has happened, what use could it possibly be to continue? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."



It seems to me like your first sentence admits that doing so is not about finding Kyron, and is more about hurting Terri. Personally, I think that if this is a forum for Kyron, trying to find Kyron and get evidence against the perpetrator should be the focus. Lashing out in public at a person you believe did it might make you feel good, but it doesn't actually accomplish anything. And then there is the very real possibility that you could be wrong.



It's interesting, then, that in the Morris book Desiree gives a different account - she suspected Terri before she had talked to LE and before she had even arrived in Portland. She gives her reasons - that Terri couldn't have seen Kyron from where she says she stood (which is wrong and seems to reflect Desiree's poor knowledge of the school layout) and that Terri said she "dropped him off" when she was actually in the school for 30 minutes (not exactly a smoking gun) - and then says she went to the police the very first night with her suspicions. I don't find it unbelievable that the police would take an immediate accusation from a family member seriously, though I wouldn't blame Desiree for their subsequent tunnel vision. Police have agency; they were the ones who decided on their path.



We don't know that she lied to LE.



And they put that evidence before a Grand Jury. Thirteen years later, we still don't have an indictment. I don't doubt that the MCSO believed their theory, but it would not be the first (or, sadly, the last) time police became fixated on a theory that fell apart when they showed it outside their circle.



She wants Terri arrested because she believes she's guilty. That's her prerogative, and everyone else's too. I just don't think it should cross the line into public harassment.

Actually Desiree is NOT wrong. Terri is. Terri has changed her story several times about where she was positioned the last time she says she saw Kyron at the school. It was proven that she could not see Kyron from where she said she was....so she changed it. When that version was looked intoad found to be untrue, she changed it again. Desiree is not the one lying about seeing Kyron in the hallway...Terri is. Terri's versions have been investigated several times and she lied about it. She also lied about the Dr's appointment. Desiree had a gut feeling about Terri, and Terri's behavior after Kyron went missing was the behavior of a guilty person. Desiree's husband is an experieced detective, and he also knew right away. Terri's behavior and her lies caused everyone to suspect her. Guilty people do things that give them away all the time. Terri caused the suspicions because of her guilty behavior. Things she said did not add up. Desiree knows what she knows for many very good,very sound reasons.
You seem to deliberately post things that are not true, and twist words into something other than the original meaning...on a regular basis. I don't believe that's helping Kyron.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

There are enough confirmed facts. But the current DA wants a body. He's up for re-election and is facing stiff competition from someone who seems willing to prosecute without a body.

The current DA is the third DA during this case and has only served since 2020. None of the earlier two went ahead with charges either, and I've seen no statement from DA Schmidt or his challenger Vasquez about trying or not trying this case. Where has Vasquez indicated he'd prosecute?

The more likely reason they don't prosecute is that they don't even have probable cause.

The FBI already had agents working this case from the beginning. A cold case is one that is no longer being actively investigated by LE. Usually that happens whenthe investigators feel they've hit a dead end and have no new leads to follow.
That is not the status of Kyron's case at all. It's still open and active.

The FBI assisted early on, they never took over the case. And even Desiree admits that the FBI had different opinions on the profile of the culprit.

Actually Desiree is NOT wrong. Terri is. Terri has changed her story several times about where she was positioned the last time she says she saw Kyron at the school.

According to Desiree. We haven't seen any contradictory statements from Terri.

It was proven that she could not see Kyron from where she said she was....so she changed it. When that version was looked intoad found to be untrue, she changed it again.

Which doesn't make sense. Kyron's classroom was at the end of a straight hallway, the hallway all three stairways ran up to. Regardless which one she came up, she would have been able to see Kyron.

Desiree is not the one lying about seeing Kyron in the hallway...Terri is. Terri's versions have been investigated several times and she lied about it.

Yet Desiree (and Kaine) were the ones who had Kyron's classroom wrong on Dr Phil. Desiree is the one who changed the story this year - from Kyron not set to be in the talent show to the opposite. I'm not saying she's lying, but that doesn't mean she's correct.

She also lied about the Dr's appointment.

According to Desiree. Given the teacher's initial statement (according to an actual witness, on the record) she thought Kyron was in the bathroom. Only later did she settle on the appointment story. If Terri had told her she was taking Kyron, wouldn't she have remembered that? The sequence of events make confusion a far more likely option.

Desiree had a gut feeling about Terri, and Terri's behavior after Kyron went missing was the behavior of a guilty person.

Another way to put it is that Desiree's existing resentment of Terri made her interpret all her words and actions in the most malicious way possible.

Desiree's husband is an experieced detective, and he also knew right away.

Save us all from detectives who "know right away".

Terri's behavior and her lies caused everyone to suspect her. Guilty people do things that give them away all the time. Terri caused the suspicions because of her guilty behavior. Things she said did not add up. Desiree knows what she knows for many very good,very sound reasons.

This seems light on fact and heavy on vibes. Guilty behaviour is often "behaviour of a person already decided to be guilty".

You seem to deliberately post things that are not true, and twist words into something other than the original meaning...on a regular basis. I don't believe that's helping Kyron.

Obviously what LE are doing isn't helping Kyron either. Perhaps they should try a different tack.

But if you think I'm "deliberately posting things that are not true", please point them out so I can see if I need to re-evaluate.

 

[Truth Prevails]

For those who question whether law enforcement searched the walls and dark corners of Skyline School for sweet Kyron, I hope the following links help.

Also, I have included what information I have on how many sex offenders law enforcement investigated in their search for Kyron.

The search for Kyron was never a witch hunt aimed at Terri, fueled by Desiree. Besides being ridiculous, that unfairly discounts law enforcement’s considerable professional efforts to find him. In my opinion.

Justice for Kyron!

Snipped quote: [Re-released in 2013] In most cases, missing children are often at the homes of a friend or a favorite hangout, he said, but those leads were quickly eliminated and police realized a major search needed to be launched.
As many as 15 Portland police officers were the first responders, Gates said. They searched the school grounds and immediate area without finding the child. The scope of the search and investigation was then quickly widened.
That first search included police bureau dogs who sniffed areas of the building where the boy might have been hidden from view. The roof was also searched, he said.
The Horman family has been very cooperative, he said, and are doing the best they can under traumatic circumstances. The birth mother came to Portland after her son was reported missing. All parents were in constant contact with detectives, he said.
Police question parents at missing boy's school

Snipped quote: [June 10, 2010] Air scent dogs also have been deployed, said Russ Gubele, president of Mountain Wave, an emergency communications and search and rescue group based in Gresham. They're trained to find a human being -- anyone -- in a particular site.
Searchers also have access to cadaver dogs, but Gubele wouldn't say whether any have checked the fields or the school. He also wouldn't say whether dogs have searched the school, but Gates said search teams have checked Skyline extensively several times.
It's not unusual to search the same areas twice or more, Gubele said. "It's good practice to check and recheck," he said, "just in case something was missed, especially in the bad weather and darkness."
Kyron Horman still missing; crews from 18 Oregon counties unite to search

Snipped quote: [June 16, 2010] Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace Producer: Well, Nancy, the sex offenders in the area, 176 are being looked into. The family is also being spoken to at this point and no one has been ruled out.
CNN.com - Transcripts

 

[EllaMae]

For those who question whether law enforcement searched the walls and dark corners of Skyline School for sweet Kyron, I hope the following links help.

Also, I have included what information I have on how many sex offenders law enforcement investigated in their search for Kyron.

The search for Kyron was never a witch hunt aimed at Terri, fueled by Desiree. Besides being ridiculous, that unfairly discounts law enforcement’s considerable professional efforts to find him. In my opinion.

Justice for Kyron!

Snipped quote: [Re-released in 2013] In most cases, missing children are often at the homes of a friend or a favorite hangout, he said, but those leads were quickly eliminated and police realized a major search needed to be launched.
As many as 15 Portland police officers were the first responders, Gates said. They searched the school grounds and immediate area without finding the child. The scope of the search and investigation was then quickly widened.
That first search included police bureau dogs who sniffed areas of the building where the boy might have been hidden from view. The roof was also searched, he said.
The Horman family has been very cooperative, he said, and are doing the best they can under traumatic circumstances. The birth mother came to Portland after her son was reported missing. All parents were in constant contact with detectives, he said.
Police question parents at missing boy's school

Snipped quote: [June 10, 2010] Air scent dogs also have been deployed, said Russ Gubele, president of Mountain Wave, an emergency communications and search and rescue group based in Gresham. They're trained to find a human being -- anyone -- in a particular site.
Searchers also have access to cadaver dogs, but Gubele wouldn't say whether any have checked the fields or the school. He also wouldn't say whether dogs have searched the school, but Gates said search teams have checked Skyline extensively several times.
It's not unusual to search the same areas twice or more, Gubele said. "It's good practice to check and recheck," he said, "just in case something was missed, especially in the bad weather and darkness."
Kyron Horman still missing; crews from 18 Oregon counties unite to search

Snipped quote: [June 16, 2010] Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace Producer: Well, Nancy, the sex offenders in the area, 176 are being looked into. The family is also being spoken to at this point and no one has been ruled out.
CNN.com - Transcripts

Thanks so much for those links. They know Kyron did not die inside the school.They know Kyron was not taken out of the school by a sex offender who wandered in and snatched Kyron from the doorway of his classroom.
LE did an extensive and professional parallel investigation. They investigated the family members because statistically when younger children go missing a family member or someone close to a family member is involved. While they did that investigation, they also investigated everyone who was at Skyline that day, all staff members and anyone connected to Skyline. They investigated sex offenders. The school was thoroughly searched, and eveyone BUT TERRI was cleared. She had no alibi, had motive, lied to investigators repeatedly, and changed her story more than once. Her behavior indicated guilt. She gave up her baby daughter rather than testify about Kyron's disappearance in her divorce from Kaine, which shows she had plenty to hide. An innocent mother would never do that. IMHO,Terri is an alcoholic and a narcissistic sociopath. Kyron was in her way, and she planned his disappearance/death after her plan to have Kaine murdered did not work out. Terri has used and manipulated people all of her life, and she still is. This guy she's with now gave her the name change and financial support she wanted.
There's plenty of factual,easily available information about this case. There's no good reason to keep posting things that aren't true, and have been covered over and over and over.

I really hope a new DA is elected, and that he will have the guts to prosecute Terri and Dede even without the body. They do have other physical evidence. DAs are political beings and usually have big ambitions beyond the DA's office. They don't like to lose, and often turn down cases where these is no body because they think those cases are hard to win. Also, Terri has an attorney who intimdates the DA's office. That's been the biggest reason. But Desiree believes a change could help Kyron's case, and that's reason enough to hope it happens. She has a lot more information and connections than anyone posting here.

 

[minazoe]

Thanks so much for those links. They know Kyron did not die inside the school.They know Kyron was not taken out of the school by a sex offender who wandered in and snatched Kyron from the doorway of his classroom.
LE did an extensive and professional parallel investigation. They investigated the family members because statistically when younger children go missing a family member or someone close to a family member is involved. While they did that investigation, they also investigated everyone who was at Skyline that day, all staff members and anyone connected to Skyline. They investigated sex offenders. The school was thoroughly searched, and eveyone BUT TERRI was cleared. She had no alibi, had motive, lied to investigators repeatedly, and changed her story more than once. Her behavior indicated guilt. She gave up her baby daughter rather than hits out testify about Kyron's disappearance in her divorce from Kaine, which shows she had plenty to hide. An innocent mother would never do that. IMHO,Terri is an alcoholic and a narcissistic sociopath. Kyron was in her way, and she planned his disappearance/death after her plan to have Kaine murdered did not work out. Terri has used and manipulated people all of her life, and she still is. This guy she's with now gave her the name change and financial support she wanted.
There's plenty of factual,easily available information about this case. There's no good reason to keep posting things that aren't true, and have been covered over and over and over.

I really hope a new DA is elected, and that he will have the guts to prosecute Terri and Dede even without the body. They do have other physical evidence. DAs are political beings and usually have big ambitions beyond the DA's office. They don't like to lose, and often turn down cases where these is no body because they think those cases are hard to win. Also, Terri has an attorney who intimdates the DA's office. That's been the biggest reason. But Desiree believes a change could help Kyron's case, and that's reason enough to hope it happens. She has a lot more information and connections than anyone posting here.

What "other" physical evidence do they have? do you know? I can't remember any but I could just be blanking out on what it is. Terri really doesn't have a good track record on anything in her life except her ability to reel in a man.
She can't even teach school...she has DUI's ,divorces, scams, stealing, trying to put hits out on people..you name it. I wonder how much of her character and history of criminal behavior will be allowed in a criminal case against her. They could say it's all circumstantial and prejudicial. In a civil case I think it can all come in. mOO

 

[Truth Prevails]

The first image below shows most of the long hallway from Kyron’s classroom to the stairs by the gym/parking lot entrance of the school (east door). It seems the photographer was standing in front of the doorway to Kyron’s classroom.

The south door/front entrance staircase would be between the two people walking and the clothes rack with the white basket underneath it.

This image may not have been taken in 2010 but it gives an idea of the line of vision in the school hallway. Add “X” number of people mingling, and consider that some of the classroom doors may have been open.

<modsnip - no link>

Kyron was 3’9” tall. He weighed about 50 pounds. The back of the t-shirt he was wearing that day was solid black.

From whichever location she says she last saw Kyron, I always questioned how much could be seen of a small child in a sea of adults, other children, and solid objects. The back of a small head? As one was juggling an 18-month-old, a diaper bag, and likely a stroller? And maybe there were other people on the same stairwell.

Snipped quote: [December 10, 2010] The Task Force has identified 490 people who were present.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111004073136/http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/kyron_horman_task_force_sends.html

Snipped quote: [January 20, 2016] "I saw him walking down to his room," she said. "My vision of him is the back of his head almost at the door. That's what I see when I sit here and think about him - that's my last thought."
Terri Horman: I would keep Kyron home that day

The final image shows the outside of the school. The yellow arrow shows the approximate location of the inside hallway; the star shows the approximate location of the main entrance (south door); a text box marks the door to the gym/parking lot/school bus entrance of the school (east door). <modsnip - no link>

 

[FergusMcDuck]

The first image below shows most of the long hallway from Kyron’s classroom to the stairs by the gym/parking lot entrance of the school (east door). It seems the photographer was standing in front of the doorway to Kyron’s classroom.

The south door/front entrance staircase would be between the two people walking and the clothes rack with the white basket underneath it.

An excellent depiction of the straight hallway, showing Kyron would be perfectly visible to Terri.

This image may not have been taken in 2010 but it gives an idea of the line of vision in the school hallway. Add “X” number of people mingling, and consider that some of the classroom doors may have been open.

I don't believe anyone has ever given any indication of how crowded the hallway was at that time. But more importantly, Desiree never said Terri couldn't see Kyron due to open doors or crowds.

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

2) she went to the top of the east stairs; 3) she walked halfway down the hallway from the top of the east stairs.

The story from Terri has always been the same from what I have seen. She walked up the stairs by the gym and last saw Kyron from the position indicated on Dr Phil.

Kyron was 3’9” tall. He weighed about 50 pounds. The back of the t-shirt he was wearing that day was solid black.

From whichever location she says she last saw Kyron, I always questioned how much could be seen of a small child in a sea of adults, other children, and solid objects. The back of a small head? As one was juggling an 18-month-old, a diaper bag, and likely a stroller? And maybe there were other people on the same stairwell.

Again, nobody has ever said how crowded that hall was at the time, sea or not. And as your pictures show, there's nothing blocking the view. So why is it hard to believe?
<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

 

[Shamrock1]

What "other" physical evidence do they have? do you know? I can't remember any but I could just be blanking out on what it is. Terri really doesn't have a good track record on anything in her life except her ability to reel in a man.
She can't even teach school...she has DUI's ,divorces, scams, stealing, trying to put hits out on people..you name it. I wonder how much of her character and history of criminal behavior will be allowed in a criminal case against her. They could say it's all circumstantial and prejudicial. In a civil case I think it can all come in. mOO

That’s not correct. The rules of evidence don’t permit everything simply because a case is civil.

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[minazoe]

That’s not correct. The rules of evidence don’t permit everything simply because a case is civil.

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

www.law.cornell.edu

well I can only hope that her criminal history and bad character come into play so people will not be fooled into thinking
she is a harmless single mother. mOO

 

[Vern]

Did I miss something?

Have they finally found actual evidence against Terri and have charged her with something/anything? Link?

 

[DFWNF]

well I can only hope that her criminal history and bad character come into play so people will not be fooled into thinking
she is a harmless single mother. mOO

She is a dangerous evil woman, I am still praying she gets locked up soon, and poor Kyron is recovered.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Did I miss something?

Have they finally found actual evidence against Terri and have charged her with something/anything? Link?

I haven't seen anything to indicate movement in the case, much less impending charges or arrests. People have been predicting the imminent arrest of Terri almost constantly since July 2010, and well, here we are close to 14 years later.

 

[Sjöberg]

Most people like fairytales as a kid and an "evil stepmother" is such a strong stereotype in these that I can understand how it is ingrained in us and how we might start forming theories against a stepmother without any real evidence.

Looking at the facts, however, I think it's rather unlikely that the stepmother is involved in this particular case. I don't have a main theory at the moment, but I'm not ruling out a stranger abduction nor a kid wondering away nor a grooming type of an incident. I have a feeling the real culprit is someone we just don't know about at the moment - so it's easy to just pick "the best fit" from the people we know about. We've seen it over and over again, my favourite example lately is the Idaho 4 murder case where accusations were thrown at the ex-bf and at the driver, totally logical, as they were the best fit. But it ended up being someone random we had no info about.

 

[lightofmine99]

The woods next to the school are extremely vast and people generally underestimate how easy it is to get lost in woods that are not as dense and widespread. I remember reading a very informative Reddit thread from someone who is local to the area (possibly an alumnus of the school) where they talk about these woods. Of course this is just a personal anecdote but it changed my perspective a lot.

I think he was lured into the woods by someone. MOO.

Most people like fairytales as a kid and an "evil stepmother" is such a strong stereotype in these that I can understand how it is ingrained in us and how we might start forming theories against a stepmother without any real evidence.

Yeah people have serious knives out for the stepmother.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Most people like fairytales as a kid and an "evil stepmother" is such a strong stereotype in these that I can understand how it is ingrained in us and how we might start forming theories against a stepmother without any real evidence.

Looking at the facts, however, I think it's rather unlikely that the stepmother is involved in this particular case. I don't have a main theory at the moment, but I'm not ruling out a stranger abduction nor a kid wondering away nor a grooming type of an incident. I have a feeling the real culprit is someone we just don't know about at the moment - so it's easy to just pick "the best fit" from the people we know about. We've seen it over and over again, my favourite example lately is the Idaho 4 murder case where accusations were thrown at the ex-bf and at the driver, totally logical, as they were the best fit. But it ended up being someone random we had no info about.

Well, we have the Gannon Stauch case. His stepmother epitomizes evil, and I'm not talking about a fairytale.

The Idaho 4 murder case has not gone to trial yet. He has a group of Internet supporters who believe he is innocent; they send him money for his commissary account, write him sympathy letters, and diligently plead his case on the Internet.

 

[Vern]

Well, we have the Gannon Stauch case. His stepmother epitomizes evil, and I'm not talking about a fairytale.

The Idaho 4 murder case has not gone to trial yet. He has a group of Internet supporters who believe he is innocent; they send him money for his commissary account, write him sympathy letters, and diligently plead his case on the Internet.

There are also millions of step mothers out there who haven't murdered their kids. I am one of them. I have four kids: 2 + 2 but all "my" kids. So, there's that. And I think BK is guilty as heck. The two are not equal.

 

[Soulmagent]

The woods next to the school are extremely vast and people generally underestimate how easy it is to get lost in woods that are not as dense and widespread. I remember reading a very informative Reddit thread from someone who is local to the area (possibly an alumnus of the school) where they talk about these woods. Of course this is just a personal anecdote but it changed my perspective a lot.

I think he was lured into the woods by someone. MOO.

Yeah people have serious knives out for the stepmother.

I will admit I think step mom is shifty as they come .All that best friend drama and the sick baby crap during that whole day Kyron was not in school ,where he was confirmed to be on camera footage in the school. I dont know if he was lured into the woods or not ,but he is seen walking in the building and then he vanishes? At least thats how I remember it .
I guess Kain is okay with the school ,and might know more about Terry's questionable behavior than we do- but ,Yo! He sends his daughter to the same school!
That's crazy to me!

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I will admit I think step mom is shifty as they come .All that best friend drama and the sick baby crap during that whole day Kyron was not in school ,where he was confirmed to be on camera footage in the school. I dont know if he was lured into the woods or not ,but he is seen walking in the building and then he vanishes? At least thats how I remember it .
I guess Kain is okay with the school ,and might know more about Terry's questionable behavior than we do- but ,Yo! He sends his daughter to the same school!
That's crazy to me!

Kyron wasn't seen on camera footage entering or exiting the school - the school had no cameras. We know he was there due to the testimony of Terri and others, as well as the photo Terri took. He may be in other photos, but none that have been made public.

 

[Truth Prevails]

There are also millions of step mothers out there who haven't murdered their kids. I am one of them. I have four kids: 2 + 2 but all "my" kids. So, there's that. And I think BK is guilty as heck. The two are not equal.

I'm so glad for you and your children that you are an amazing stepmom. You are not Terri.

 

[DFWNF]

I will admit I think step mom is shifty as they come .All that best friend drama and the sick baby crap during that whole day Kyron was not in school ,where he was confirmed to be on camera footage in the school. I dont know if he was lured into the woods or not ,but he is seen walking in the building and then he vanishes? At least thats how I remember it .
I guess Kain is okay with the school ,and might know more about Terry's questionable behavior than we do- but ,Yo! He sends his daughter to the same school!
That's crazy to me!

Jmo it wouldn't be the school that I was afraid of. Jmo