Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

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One of the many insinuations against Terri has to do with her parking at the two Fred Meyer stores she visited, the first one ca 9:00-9:15, the other ca 9:30-10:00. Here's a passage from the Rebecca Morris book Boy Missing:

Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores’ front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby.

From the same book:

One thing that bothered me was how Terri parked far away in the Fred Meyer parking lot.

So the implication is that Terri parked far away to prevent people and cameras from seeing what was inside the truck - Kyron, one would assume.

Back on August 11th 2010, the police released a flier with a set of images of a truck in various parking lots. A websleuther discovered embedded text to the two images from the Fred Meyer stores:

IMG_0134 Corn Pass Fred Meyers, looking from Terris parking spot.JPG

IMG_0158 View from the enterence and exit at Walker Rd Fred Meyers, Looking at Terri parking spot on the far rock wa.JPG

So I was curious just how far away these locations were from the store. I lined up the photos using Google Maps Street View as best as I could and marked the spots where Terri parked according to MCSO. First Fred Meyer at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass:


FMImbrie.PNG

Next we have Fred Meyer at Walker Road:

FMWalker.PNG

I must say neither position is extremely distant to me, certainly not "as far from the stores' front doors as possible". There are many spots further away in both cases, especially Imbrie. Also, even with only half-full lots (as in my screenshots) you can see in the images that the areas where Terri parked are far from "deserted". Both places strike me as exactly the place you would park if you didn't want to be right in the thick of it, but also not too far away from the doors.

I think this can be chalked up to exaggeration.

Another interesting bit is that at both places, but Imbrie in particular, the distance would not shield the car from insight as customers could and would drive by on their way in and out. If a living Kyron was in the truck he would easily have been spotted when Terri and the baby were in the stores.

A dead Kyron in the truck comes with its own problems, including the fact that the police went over the truck and found nothing.
 
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One of the many insinuations against Terri has to do with her parking at the two Fred Meyer stores she visited, the first one ca 9:00-9:15, the other ca 9:30-10:00. Here's a passage from the Rebecca Morris book Boy Missing:



From the same book:



So the implication is that Terri parked far away to prevent people and cameras from seeing what was inside the truck - Kyron one would assume.

Back on August 11th 2010, the police released a flier with a set of images of a truck in various parking lots. A websleuther discovered embedded text to the two images from the Fred Meyer stores:



So I was curious just how far away these locations were from the store. I lined up the photos using Google Maps Street View as best as I could and marked the spots where Terri parked according to MCSO. First Fred Meyer at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass:


View attachment 369243

Next we have Fred Meyer at Walker Road:

View attachment 369244

I must say neither position is extremely distant to me, certainly not "as far from the stores' front doors as possible". There are many spots further away in both cases, especially Imbrie. Also, even with only half-full lots (as in my screenshots) you can see in the images that the areas where Terri parked are far from "deserted". Both places strike me as exactly the place you would park if you didn't want to be right in the thick of it, but also not too far away from the doors.

I think this can be chalked up to exaggeration.

Another interesting bit is that at both places, but Imbrie in particular, the distance would not shield the car from insight as customers could and would drive by on their way in and out. If a living Kyron was in the truck he would easily have been spotted when Terri and the baby were in the stores.

A dead Kyron in the truck comes with its own problems, including the fact that the police went over the truck and found nothing.
The first photo shows how I would have parked. My father was always telling me to park where I could see around my car when I was approaching it for safety reasons. A second reason is exercise. I worked in an office and felt I needed the exercise. The second photo still shows where I might have parked as I don't like the way the parking spaces are angled. It makes it harder to see when someone else is backing out of a parking space. A third reason is the obvious "I don't want my car dinged up."
 
The first photo shows how I would have parked. My father was always telling me to park where I could see around my car when I was approaching it for safety reasons. A second reason is exercise. I worked in an office and felt I needed the exercise. The second photo still shows where I might have parked as I don't like the way the parking spaces are angled. It makes it harder to see when someone else is backing out of a parking space. A third reason is the obvious "I don't want my car dinged up."

Another reason for parking in those locations, even if there was less parked cars close by than my screenshots, is the risk of someone parking next to you while you're in the store. That risk decreases the further away you park.

When I first heard about how far away Terri parked that morning and how suspicious it was, I expected something far worse than what the photos showed. It's remarkable how much of the case against Terri relies on hyperbole.
 
Another reason for parking in those locations, even if there was less parked cars close by than my screenshots, is the risk of someone parking next to you while you're in the store. That risk decreases the further away you park.

When I first heard about how far away Terri parked that morning and how suspicious it was, I expected something far worse than what the photos showed. It's remarkable how much of the case against Terri relies on hyperbole.
I don't know....to me those seem quite far especially when carrying a toddler or walking a stroller. But also, if I'm driving a truck, I would unfortunately have to park away from other cars to make sure I have enough room to move.
 
I don't know....to me those seem quite far especially when carrying a toddler or walking a stroller. But also, if I'm driving a truck, I would unfortunately have to park away from other cars to make sure I have enough room to move.

A lot of these matters are completely personal, which is why I don't like to measure after myself - I tend to park at a similar distance at my local store, but that is mostly because there's a cart station right there. At other places I just grab the space closest to the store, though it depends on how wide the spaces are. Driving something larger than you're used to (even if it's not necessarily the first time) always comes with some trepidation. Will I judge the distances correctly? Will I park too close to the line? So I take a spot with empty spaces next to me if I can, hoping they won't fill up. But that's me, and others do it differently.

I recall seeing a comment where Terri claimed she had the baby on her hip all morning, so no stroller - which makes sense in Skyline School in particular, with all the stairs. Walking around with an 18-month old girl on her hip for the 30 minutes she spent in Skyline doesn't seem to have fazed her very much.

Ultimately my point is, when you remove the hyperbole - she parked as far away as she could, she parked in deserted areas, etc. - it really isn't all that suspicious.
 
Those don't look as far away as I pictured. I was imagining the super far away lots, like at our local Wal Mart where the campers and RVs park overnight.
 
In my opinion, she was deliberately parking where there would be no video of Kaine's F250 while she was inside the stores with the baby.

She was being careful of not only the Fred Meyer stores' security systems but also of the security systems of the businesses located in the parking lots of the Fred Meyer stores.

Kyron hadn't been reported missing yet and wouldn't be for many hours.

Snipped quote: Kyron’s DNA was found in the bed of the truck.

"A" is the approximate vicinity of her chosen parking spot at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass Fred Meyer. I've circled the prominent parking lot businesses. (This may have changed since 2010 but I'm sure most of them would have been there, or something else in their place).
Kyron Horman 1st Fred Meyer Parking Lot Series 2.jpg

"B" is the approximate vicinity of her chosen parking spot at Walker Road Fred Meyer. The red circles indicate the same pattern of parking where there was no chance of surveillance cameras monitoring the F250 while she was "shopping" inside the Fred Meyer with the baby.
Kyron Horman 2nd Fred Meyer Parking Lot Series 2.jpg

With the exception of the Google Maps Distance and Driving Time inserts, the following is a snipped quote:
June 5, 2010:
By Saturday afternoon, police were still trying to pin down Terri’s timeline. Desiree’s and Kaine’s were solid. Terri’s was the only complicated one.

[Mother of a child in Kyron’s class] told police she had seen Terri take Kyron's photo in front of his science exhibit. That was at 8:45 a.m.

[5.6 miles/10 minutes—Google Maps Distance and Driving Time]


At 9:12 a.m. Terri was caught on a surveillance video leaving the Fred Meyer store on Northwest Imbrie Drive in Hillsboro.

[4.9 miles/11 minutes—Google Maps Distance and Driving Time]

At 9:40 a.m. she was on video leaving another Fred Meyer, on Southwest Walker Road.

Police studied the footage from the stores. It was curious. The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and [the baby] in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron’s booster seat was empty.

Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby. And no cameras.


She told police that Kaine liked to park a long way from store entrances, so she did too. Kaine scoffed when police asked him if that was true.
"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris


Snipped quote: That year Horman met Ecker at a Fred Meyer store in Roseburg where he worked. They dated for a few months but then became friends, with Horman sharing confidences with him.
 
A third reason is the obvious "I don't want my car dinged up."
I've seen people park magnificent Corvettes "far away" in a parking lot and then someone with an old wreck park right beside them. Just because they thought it would be humorous or to make the Corvette owner nervous.

Parking "far away" in a parking lot can draw attention to a vehicle.

Also, her excuse was that she parked a long way from the entrance of each store because Kaine did likewise. She never gave a reason as to why Kaine would do so, just that he "liked to" and he scoffed when asked by LE if it was true.

Kaine knew what games she was playing, IMO.

Snipped: She told police that Kaine liked to park a long way from store entrances, so she did too. Kaine scoffed when police asked him if that was true.
"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris
 
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Walking around with an 18-month old girl on her hip for the 30 minutes she spent in Skyline doesn't seem to have fazed her very much.
She had let herself go quite a bit by 2010, but she boasted in her sexting escapades with MC that she could bench "195", so I see no reason why it should have fazed her.

However, I'd like to see a link confirming that she did have the baby on her hip, please.

She took pictures that morning so she must have put the baby down for at least a short period of time.

Plenty of pictures exist of the baby in her stroller while at Skyline on other days.

The 18-month-old would have been getting along well on her own steam by that age. She was doing very well in the video Terri took of Kyron in his Grade 1 talent show. She was a distance away from her mother as she stood and giggled with delight at seeing her big brother on stage. She lifted her hands up in the air like the bigger kids were doing. So precious.
 
Parking "far away" in a parking lot can draw attention to a vehicle.

"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris
Parking far away also means that larger (higher profile) vehicles may park next to you or pass close by yours. I've had it happen to me many times. Those vehicles can see right into most other vehicles. If Kyron had been in the truck, he most likely would have been seen. Apparently, Terri wasn't worried about that happening.
 
No matter where Terri parked at either location, there was always a chance some random person would happen upon the truck, park near it, or be nosy and look inside. There's no way to predict such a chance encounter.
 
In my opinion, she was deliberately parking where there would be no video of Kaine's F250 while she was inside the stores with the baby.

She was being careful of not only the Fred Meyer stores' security systems but also of the security systems of the businesses located in the parking lots of the Fred Meyer stores.

Kyron hadn't been reported missing yet and wouldn't be for many hours.

Snipped quote: Kyron’s DNA was found in the bed of the truck.

"A" is the approximate vicinity of her chosen parking spot at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass Fred Meyer. I've circled the prominent parking lot businesses. (This may have changed since 2010 but I'm sure most of them would have been there, or something else in their place).
View attachment 369442

And it's obvious that there are spots further away from the store's front that also has no cameras close by.

"B" is the approximate vicinity of her chosen parking spot at Walker Road Fred Meyer. The red circles indicate the same pattern of parking where there was no chance of surveillance cameras monitoring the F250 while she was "shopping" inside the Fred Meyer with the baby.
View attachment 369443

Same here. Of course, she would have no way of knowing what would show up on a camera, since she never worked at either location.

It just makes no sense to bring your (still living) victim with you to the very place where you need to be seen to create your alibi.

With the exception of the Google Maps Distance and Driving Time inserts, the following is a snipped quote:

Yes, this passage from the Morris book is a great example of how careless it is with the facts. It does seem obvious to me that at this point, almost a decade later, Desiree does not possess the full facts or any reasonable means to get to them.

June 5, 2010:
By Saturday afternoon, police were still trying to pin down Terri’s timeline. Desiree’s and Kaine’s were solid. Terri’s was the only complicated one.

[Mother of a child in Kyron’s class] told police she had seen Terri take Kyron's photo in front of his science exhibit. That was at 8:45 a.m.

This is false information, since from the very start, PTA president Gina Zimmerman testified to seeing Terri and Kyron in front of their project in the classroom at 8:15. This is not Morris being sloppy, but an idea Desiree seems to have gotten years later. At first she claimed it was based on "technology" (metadata, one supposes), but that is mysteriously absent from the book.

[5.6 miles/10 minutes—Google Maps Distance and Driving Time]

At 9:12 a.m. Terri was caught on a surveillance video leaving the Fred Meyer store on Northwest Imbrie Drive in Hillsboro.

Yet, 9:12 is the specific time given on the receipt Terri got at that location, not the time she was spotted driving away. If it was the Starbucks drivethrough I suppose they could match.

[4.9 miles/11 minutes—Google Maps Distance and Driving Time]

At 9:40 a.m. she was on video leaving another Fred Meyer, on Southwest Walker Road.

This, however, is way off. The police have been consistent in saying Terri's shopping run ended at 10:10 or 10:15. This is inconsistent with leaving at 9:40, but Morris also fudges the time Terri arrives at the gym (it was 11:39, but the book erroneously says 12:20), expanding the time Terri was driving around unwitnessed from 90 minutes to almost three hours.

The idea that the video showed her leaving at 9:40 falls flat on its face when you realize that the ones who studied the footage put out this flier immediately after. Why on earth would they ask for sightings of the truck at 10:00 if the footage they themselves viewed showed it leaving at 9:40?

Police studied the footage from the stores. It was curious. The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and [the baby] in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron’s booster seat was empty.

How on earth would Terri know the angles of the cameras and how to park so that they covered exactly what she wanted to show, and nothing more?

Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby. And no cameras.

Well, I've clearly shown that this is wrong. There are places further away and they would not be deserted. Ridiculous hyperbole from Morris.

I've seen people park magnificent Corvettes "far away" in a parking lot and then someone with an old wreck park right beside them. Just because they thought it would be humorous or to make the Corvette owner nervous.

Parking "far away" in a parking lot can draw attention to a vehicle.

Sure, nothing is certain. But so much of this case (at least in the public perception) relies on there only being one single way of doing things ever, only one single way of thinking of things. Because if there isn't, pretty much all of Terri's actions that day are perfectly explainable.

It was interesting, reading the old threads in this forum. When Terri's reason for driving around with the baby came out, people scoffed. "Who does that? Obvious lie!" It took a few pages before commenters started speaking up. "Well, I do, actually." "It's not that uncommon." Similarly, when the photos from the FM parking lots became public (and showed Terri had been truthful about her locations) there was more scoffing: "Who would park that far away? She must have been trying to hide something!" and again it took a bit for others to chime in: "I do, especially when I drive a larger vehicle."

It takes a lot of effort and plenty of denial (and as the Morris book shows, a hefty dose of hyperbole) to make Terri's parking choices that morning suspicious.

However, I'd like to see a link confirming that she did have the baby on her hip, please.
<modsnip>
She took pictures that morning so she must have put the baby down for at least a short period of time.

She took pictures with her phone, no? Only need one hand for that.

Plenty of pictures exist of the baby in her stroller while at Skyline on other days.

Well, first, that would likely depend on how long Terri was planning on staying at the school. For a whole day, a stroller might be useful, since there might be naptime involved.

But this is yet another case of there not being just one single understandable course of action.

The 18-month-old would have been getting along well on her own steam by that age. She was doing very well in the video Terri took of Kyron in his Grade 1 talent show. She was a distance away from her mother as she stood and giggled with delight at seeing her big brother on stage. She lifted her hands up in the air like the bigger kids were doing. So precious.

OK, so there would be no problem putting her down for a little while? Then I see no reason a stroller had to be used.
 
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It does seem obvious to me that at this point, almost a decade later, Desiree does not possess the full facts or any reasonable means to get to them.
Desiree, of course, does not possess the full facts. Only law enforcement has the "full facts" and they will never release them to anyone. Only at trial will we hear them.

PTA president
testified to seeing Terri and Kyron in front of their project in the classroom at 8:15.
The PTA president "testified"? Is there a supporting link for this?

It was reported in many MSM articles that GZ saw Kyron and the stepmother in front of his science exhibit when she arrived at 8:15 a.m.

The second link mentions her "last seeing" Kyron "posing" in front of his project but, unfortunately, no time is given. It doesn't even confirm what classroom.

Snipped quote:
8:15 a.m.
[GZ], president of the school PTA, arrives and sees Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit.

Snipped quote: Parent [GZ] said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his red-eyed tree frog science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron s best friends and she knew him well.

Zimmerman said that Kyron was not the type of child to wander off. He knows 'stranger danger, she said. He's a really good kid.


Snipped quote: Desiree and Tony heard Terri describe her day. Terri said she had taken the photo of Kyron at 8:45 a.m. and walked out of the school with [the baby] at 8:50 a.m. She said she had parked the truck in the school parking lot.
"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris

It's interesting that it appears to be Terri, herself, who told law enforcement that she "had taken the photo of Kyron at 8:45 a.m." It seems to be one of the few things that Terri chose to tell the truth about. Probably because she knew LE could confirm the exact time the picture was taken.

This, however, is way off. The police have been consistent in saying Terri's shopping run ended at 10:10 or 10:15. This is inconsistent with leaving at 9:40, but Morris also fudges the time Terri arrives at the gym (it was 11:39, but the book erroneously says 12:20), expanding the time Terri was driving around unwitnessed from 90 minutes to almost three hours.
The "police have been consistent"? The media, maybe, have been consistent--but they don't often reveal their sources. We can only hope they are respectable and reliable. I suspect Terri was used as a media source when it came to her timeline. I don't believe the police would comment to the media on such matters.

We can only use the book by Rebecca Morris for discussion purposes, however, it's interesting that the police are also used as the source for the following.

Snipped quote: Terri said she arrived at the gym at 11:39 a.m. (Police said she checked in at 12:20 p.m. and out at 12:40 p.m.).
"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris
 
It was reported in many MSM articles that GZ saw Kyron and the stepmother in front of his science exhibit when she arrived at 8:15 a.m.

Snipped quote:
8:15 a.m.
[GZ], president of the school PTA, arrives and sees Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit.

Snipped quote: Desiree and Tony heard Terri describe her day. Terri said she had taken the photo of Kyron at 8:45 a.m. and walked out of the school with [the baby] at 8:50 a.m. She said she had parked the truck in the school parking lot.
"Boy Missing - The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morr
What Zimmerman said isn't accepted because Desiree and Tony, who were NOT there, claims to have heard Terri say otherwise?
 

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