FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #22

[Knitpicker]

I know she said her family was from Coral Springs. But I thought she said to Isom that because it was Friday her family would be at the Miami Beach Condo that day instead. I recall hearing her say that.

I don’t know about Corbett- I thought he had phone records for where Donna was when she sent the “outside your house” text. Of course, as I recall, the records show only the nearest cell phone tower, not the exact location, but I recall the testimony being that the phone was pinging on a tower near Charlie’s house. My recollection is that Donna’s text said “outside your house, not “passing your house.” Charlie responded “10 minutes,” if I recall correctly from trial. It’s not believable to me that she would text him “outside your house” just because she was passing by on the turnpike, (especially since he seems to me to have indicated he would meet her there in 10 minutes,) and I don’t think it was believable to Charlie’s jury, either. I don’t think it will be believable to the jury in Donna’s eventual trial. That’s why I don’t think it’s so important where she left from, if it can be shown she was outside his house waiting for him. What was she doing stopping and waiting there, on her way to comfort her daughter, and already facing a very long drive which required an overnight stop?

I believe Corbett also could place Donna’s phone in Orlando that night. There was some dispute, if I recall, during Corbett’s cross as to whether there was enough time between when she sent the “outside your house” text and when the phone was pinging near Orlando, for them to have driven from Ft. Lauderdale to Orlando. I believe there was sufficient time, with some time to spare waiting for Charlie, but I also remember Corbett saying he was going to go back and confirm.

Corbitt did mention she was in Orlando and the time she was there.
What he did not state is where her phone was when she left a residence to head to Charlies.
I’ve watched it several times.

The point is that theres more than one issue with the money drop.
Charlie may have lied twice. Where his parents or Donna was coming from and whether she actually was at his house.

 

[watergirl62]

That is very confusing.
She got the ring prior to his proposal to her?
So the uncle gave him the ring in anticipation of proposal with it , yet he did not propose to her with it?
So how did she get the ring?

The whole thing is crazy because first off, how could WA’s parents INSIST that he propose to her with her grandmothers ring? How did they know when he would propose or that he would propose at all?
Sounds crazy.
IF this were true, and he knew her parents INSISTED she get proposed to (none of the business) with her grandmothers ring,(and he did—I understand thats the ring she wore to the wedding), the writing was already on the wall of what he was up against.

Still, I ask how did she have that ring in her posession?

I just wanted a point of reference for the search warrant reach back to June 2012.

She raided their safety deposit box and stole it in July 2012 which is 2 months before she filed for divorce, ghosted Dan, and moved to Aqua Ridge, according to this document filed by DM's attorney on 2/14/2014. She never gave the ring back.

 

[amicuscurie]

I just wanted a point of reference for the search warrant reach back to June 2012.

She raided their safety deposit box and stole it in July 2012 which is 2 months before she filed for divorce, ghosted Dan, and moved to Aqua Ridge, according to this document filed by DM's attorney on 2/14/2014. She never gave the ring back.

I’ve heard Ruth talk about how he proposed to her with his Uncle’s ring (the Holocaust one), but then she insisted on wearing he own grandmother’s ring and Dan and the family were OK with that, and I believe that is the one she wore at her wedding and thereafter. It is my understanding that she came into possession of the Holocaust ring when she raided their safe deposit box when she did the “Pearl Harbor” style divorce. According to Ruth she still has it. But, also according to Ruth, she never wore it. According to pleadings in the divorce, she offered to return it if the Uncle asked her to, personally. According to Ruth, he DID ask her for it back, personally, and she still did not return it.

 

[amicuscurie]

My understanding is that she looked into Donna Klein private school in Boca after the murder. That is 20 minutes from her home in Coral Springs. She also had a job in Boca with Gary Cohen, an attorney that specializes in Personal injury. That is what I understood.
Also, if you remember, she was considering whether to hold Ben back a year and not start Kindergarten. So if Ben were still in preK, it would not have mattered whether he started end of August.
Charlie did say that Wendi met Dave on line to register Ben for school.
So it does point to Miami. But Charlie could by lying about that.

Both Donna Klein and the job in Boca were things Donna mentions in her emails, in 2013. That was a year before the murder. I am of the opinion that these things were things Donna wanted Wendi to argue in support of relocation at that time, when Donna was living full time in Coral Springs. But the murder happened a year later, and by that time, per Wendi’s police interview and the Continuum lease we have seen for Harvey, the parents and Charlie were spending significant time in Miami Beach and moving toward retirement there.

It is my opinion that at the time of the murder the intent may have been for her to settle in Miami Beach, where, remember, the evidence suggests Harvey had rented an apartment in May, and where Charlie and Donna and Harvey seem to already have been spending weekends.

The state, if it hasn’t already, needs to look at where the boys were enrolled in school in 2014. Even if they were not yet eligible for Kindergarten, they (or one of them) could have still enrolled in a preschool in Miami Beach. And I don’t believe they would have needed to research schools, if they, and Charlie, had been spending time in Miami Beach.
There is an excellent public elementary school in the neighborhood of Contunuum/Icon, and they would have know about that. Some people even choose that neighborhood because of the school.

I hope the state is looking into this. If the boys started school in South Beach in August 2014, that seems to me to indicate that there was never an intention to move to Coral Springs after the murder. It may be, however, that someone wishes to confuse matters and create the impression that it was NOT the intention to move to Miami Beach. It definitely looks suspicious to me that they seem to have rented an apartment there just before the murder, and they might possibly be aware of how it looks. The state has obtained a copy of that Continuum lease, in Harvey’s name, for a reason, I think.

 

[Knitpicker]

Both Donna Klein and the job in Boca were things Donna mentions in her emails, in 2013. That was a year before the murder. I am of the opinion that these things were things Donna wanted Wendi to argue in support of relocation at that time, when Donna was living full time in Coral Springs. But the murder happened a year later, and by that time, per Wendi’s police interview and the Continuum lease we have seen for Harvey, the parents and Charlie were spending significant time in Miami Beach and moving toward retirement there.

It is my opinion that at the time of the murder the intent may have been for her to settle in Miami Beach, where, remember, the evidence suggests Harvey had rented an apartment in May, and where Charlie and Donna and Harvey seem to already have been spending weekends.

The state, if it hasn’t already, needs to look at where the boys were enrolled in school in 2014. Even if they were not yet eligible for Kindergarten, they (or one of them) could have still enrolled in a preschool in Miami Beach. And I don’t believe they would have needed to research schools, if they, and Charlie, had been spending time in Miami Beach.
There is an excellent public elementary school in the neighborhood of Contunuum/Icon, and they would have know about that. Some people even choose that neighborhood because of the school.

I hope the state is looking into this. If the boys started school in South Beach in August 2014, that seems to me to indicate that there was never an intention to move to Coral Springs after the murder. It may be, however, that someone wishes to confuse matters and create the impression that it was NOT the intention to move to Miami Beach. It definitely looks suspicious to me that they seem to have rented an apartment there just before the murder, and they might possibly be aware of how it looks. The state has obtained a copy of that Continuum lease, in Harvey’s name, for a reason, I think.

I completely agree with what you posted so no need to go over the details.
It is only because W told Isom they were in Coral Springs and she stated that on the stand that I believe that.
Also maybe on the podcast, or somewhere else it was stated.
Harveys practice was a 45-one hour drive (without traffic) from South Beach.
Seems he stayed in the Coral Springs home M-W and spent long weekends in S Beach.
It makes total sense that Wendi was in S Beach because the podcast she spoke on was 1/2015, so no doubt she was there by that time.
Yes, about the condo at Continuim. May 2014. Did the A’s only live at that condo?
We will just have to wait it out I guess.

 

[Knitpicker]

^^^ PS to my above- I do know in a report I read it states they were coming from the condo. I don’t even remember where I read that.

 

[Knitpicker]

Both Donna Klein and the job in Boca were things Donna mentions in her emails, in 2013. That was a year before the murder. I am of the opinion that these things were things Donna wanted Wendi to argue in support of relocation at that time, when Donna was living full time in Coral Springs. But the murder happened a year later, and by that time, per Wendi’s police interview and the Continuum lease we have seen for Harvey, the parents and Charlie were spending significant time in Miami Beach and moving toward retirement there.

It is my opinion that at the time of the murder the intent may have been for her to settle in Miami Beach, where, remember, the evidence suggests Harvey had rented an apartment in May, and where Charlie and Donna and Harvey seem to already have been spending weekends.

The state, if it hasn’t already, needs to look at where the boys were enrolled in school in 2014. Even if they were not yet eligible for Kindergarten, they (or one of them) could have still enrolled in a preschool in Miami Beach. And I don’t believe they would have needed to research schools, if they, and Charlie, had been spending time in Miami Beach.
There is an excellent public elementary school in the neighborhood of Contunuum/Icon, and they would have know about that. Some people even choose that neighborhood because of the school.

I hope the state is looking into this. If the boys started school in South Beach in August 2014, that seems to me to indicate that there was never an intention to move to Coral Springs after the murder. It may be, however, that someone wishes to confuse matters and create the impression that it was NOT the intention to move to Miami Beach. It definitely looks suspicious to me that they seem to have rented an apartment there just before the murder, and they might possibly be aware of how it looks. The state has obtained a copy of that Continuum lease, in Harvey’s name, for a reason, I think.

PS thx for the detail about that being in Donna email (Donna Klein enrollment).
I had forgotten that. So yes, it could have been in anticipation and not after the murder.
Thx for that. It’s hard to keep all the facts straightened out.
I did have a notebook long ago, (in re to this case and lots of details, etc) but I since misplaced/ lost it.
I have lots of notebooks for info I do on webinars/seminars/etc. I think many notes were in the back of those,
And need to be more organized for sure! I also would grab whatever paper I had at the time I was watching something and would write on the back.
Envelopes too!

 

[Going Rogue]

That is very confusing.
She got the ring prior to his proposal to her?
So the uncle gave him the ring in anticipation of proposal with it , yet he did not propose to her with it?
So how did she get the ring?

The whole thing is crazy because first off, how could WA’s parents INSIST that he propose to her with her grandmothers ring? How did they know when he would propose or that he would propose at all?
Sounds crazy.
IF this were true, and he knew her parents INSISTED she get proposed to (none of the business) with her grandmothers ring,(and he did—I understand thats the ring she wore to the wedding), the writing was already on the wall of what he was up against.

Still, I ask how did she have that ring in her posession?

You are correct this whole thing is crazy and doesn’t add up. You have to do a little reading between the lines… Based on all the ‘data’ that I have seen, the ring Wendi ‘stole’ from the safety deposit box was presented to her as an engagement ring. Why do I think this? Mainly because in Dan’s court filing after the divorce when he went after her for ‘undisclosed assets’ she failed to disclose, he stated: “among the jewelry taken was a 2 carat diamond ring former wife never wore because her parents insisted upon being proposed to with her grandmother’s ring”.

If we read between the lines, the 2 carat ring was given to her as an engagement ring – if the above excerpt doesn’t convince us of that, I think we aren’t being objective. Did Wendi’s parents really ‘insist’ she be proposed to with her grandmother’s ring? Maybe, but as you rightly pointed out the whole thing seems crazy…. Wendi’s grandmother’s ring was definitely somehow in the mix, because I recall during a deposition, Wendi did mentioned it and claimed she didn’t really wear either of the rings. Had Dan not been murdered by Wendi’s family (and potentially Wendi as a participant) and we didn’t know how evil the Adelson family is (excluding Rob), everyone and their mother would say, tough luck on the he ring if it was in fact an engagement ring. In this case, there is outrage about the ring because we know the ring has sentimental value to the Markel family and Dan was murdered by the Adelson family. I agree the way Dan wrote the motion, and knowing what we know today, Wendi not returning the ring is a bad look for Wendi. However, when Dan filed the motion well after the divorce was finalized and included the allegations Wendi ‘stole’ the ring, there was really bad blood between Wendi (and her family) and Dan and there was no way she was returning it if was an ‘engagement’ ring – no way Donna would have allowed Wendi to do that. I know it is alleged Wendi agreed to return it ‘if’ Dan’s uncle asked, and apparently he did, but once Donna found out about this, I’m sure she told Wendi that it ‘ain’t happening’.

 

[amicuscurie]

You are correct this whole thing is crazy and doesn’t add up. You have to do a little reading between the lines… Based on all the ‘data’ that I have seen, the ring Wendi ‘stole’ from the safety deposit box was presented to her as an engagement ring. Why do I think this? Mainly because in Dan’s court filing after the divorce when he went after her for ‘undisclosed assets’ she failed to disclose, he stated: “among the jewelry taken was a 2 carat diamond ring former wife never wore because her parents insisted upon being proposed to with her grandmother’s ring”.

If we read between the lines, the 2 carat ring was given to her as an engagement ring – if the above excerpt doesn’t convince us of that, I think we aren’t being objective. Did Wendi’s parents really ‘insist’ she be proposed to with her grandmother’s ring? Maybe, but as you rightly pointed out the whole thing seems crazy…. Wendi’s grandmother’s ring was definitely somehow in the mix, because I recall during a deposition, Wendi did mentioned it and claimed she didn’t really wear either of the rings. Had Dan not been murdered by Wendi’s family (and potentially Wendi as a participant) and we didn’t know how evil the Adelson family is (excluding Rob), everyone and their mother would say, tough luck on the he ring if it was in fact an engagement ring. In this case, there is outrage about the ring because we know the ring has sentimental value to the Markel family and Dan was murdered by the Adelson family. I agree the way Dan wrote the motion, and knowing what we know today, Wendi not returning the ring is a bad look for Wendi. However, when Dan filed the motion well after the divorce was finalized and included the allegations Wendi ‘stole’ the ring, there was really bad blood between Wendi (and her family) and Dan and there was no way she was returning it if was an ‘engagement’ ring – no way Donna would have allowed Wendi to do that. I know it is alleged Wendi agreed to return it ‘if’ Dan’s uncle asked, and apparently he did, but once Donna found out about this, I’m sure she told Wendi that it ‘ain’t happening’.

I don’t think she’s obligated to return it if it’s a gift. But according to Ruth she never wore it and insisted on wearing her grandma’s ring. Apparently according to Dan’s pleadings, she also insisted on him proposing to her with that other ring? But I thought he surprised her with a proposal in Israel? Did she insist on a second proposal with the other ring?

In my opinion, insisting on keeping it seems petty, considering it seems to me like it means way more to the Markel family than it ever did to her. In my opinion, she may possibly have taken it out of spite or because it was valuable, or both. A charitable interpretation could be that she might possibly have wanted it as an heirloom for the boys after their father’s death. But my understanding is it has great sentimental value to the Markel family as it is one of the few items they were able to take with them when they fled Europe during the Holocaust.

 

[watergirl62]

Well today I learned that mentioning Holocaust ring in this thread is somewhat analogous to saying malachite poisoning in the LVD thread. My bad lol.

Soooo any thoughts what the state might be looking for as far back as June 2012 on Donna's phone (the month before WA raided the safe deposit box)?

Y'all know this case backwards and forwards and then some, I don't. Just curious. Thanks!

 

[Going Rogue]

I don’t think she’s obligated to return it if it’s a gift. But according to Ruth she never wore it and insisted on wearing her grandma’s ring. Apparently according to Dan’s pleadings, she also insisted on him proposing to her with that other ring? But I thought he surprised her with a proposal in Israel? Did she insist on a second proposal with the other ring?

In my opinion, insisting on keeping it is petty, considering it seems to me like it means way more to the Markel family than it ever did to her. In my opinion, she may possibly have taken it out of spite or because it was valuable, or both. But my understanding is it has great sentimental value to the Markel family as it is one of the few assets they were able to take with them when they fled Europe during the Holocaust.

In a bitter and contentious divorce, most really wouldn’t care if a physical asset of value has sentimental meaning to the other party - the key is asset of 'value'. The point I was making is the ring that most believe Wendi ‘stole’ from Dan, was not stolen as alleged by Dan. We can make the case it should be returned, and I believe it should, but based on everything I have read and heard about the ring, she is under no ‘legal’ obligation to return it. The moral and ethical argument is a completely different argument.

 

[amicuscurie]

Well today I learned that mentioning Holocaust ring in this thread is somewhat analogous to saying malachite poisoning in the LVD thread. My bad lol.

Soooo any thoughts what the state might be looking for as far back as June 2012 on Donna's phone (the month before WA raided the safe deposit box)?

Y'all know this case backwards and forwards and then some, I don't. Just curious. Thanks!

I think they just want to make sure they can get anything and everything that might be relevant preceding the murder, whether it be communications or data, so they left themselves a big margin to be sure and encompass everything from the time the plot might have begun. The divorce was in 2012, and in my opinion information about the divorce, and communication surrounding it, could possibly relate to motive. As a lawyer, you don’t want to find that you didn’t ask for enough in discovery. Generally, in my experience, you ask for as much as you can and leave it to the other side or the judge to argue it’s too broad.

 

[watergirl62]

I think they just want to make sure they can get anything and everything that might be relevant preceding the murder, whether it be communications or data, so they left themselves a big margin to be sure and encompass everything from the time the plot might have begun. The divorce was in 2012, and in my opinion information about the divorce, and communication surrounding it, could possibly relate to motive. As a lawyer, you don’t want to find that you didn’t ask for enough in discovery. Generally, in my experience, you ask for as much as you can and leave it to the other side or the judge to argue it’s too broad.

Perfect.Thanks for answering my question, amicuscurie!

 

[Knitpicker]

You are correct this whole thing is crazy and doesn’t add up. You have to do a little reading between the lines… Based on all the ‘data’ that I have seen, the ring Wendi ‘stole’ from the safety deposit box was presented to her as an engagement ring. Why do I think this? Mainly because in Dan’s court filing after the divorce when he went after her for ‘undisclosed assets’ she failed to disclose, he stated: “among the jewelry taken was a 2 carat diamond ring former wife never wore because her parents insisted upon being proposed to with her grandmother’s ring”.

If we read between the lines, the 2 carat ring was given to her as an engagement ring – if the above excerpt doesn’t convince us of that, I think we aren’t being objective. Did Wendi’s parents really ‘insist’ she be proposed to with her grandmother’s ring? Maybe, but as you rightly pointed out the whole thing seems crazy…. Wendi’s grandmother’s ring was definitely somehow in the mix, because I recall during a deposition, Wendi did mentioned it and claimed she didn’t really wear either of the rings. Had Dan not been murdered by Wendi’s family (and potentially Wendi as a participant) and we didn’t know how evil the Adelson family is (excluding Rob), everyone and their mother would say, tough luck on the he ring if it was in fact an engagement ring. In this case, there is outrage about the ring because we know the ring has sentimental value to the Markel family and Dan was murdered by the Adelson family. I agree the way Dan wrote the motion, and knowing what we know today, Wendi not returning the ring is a bad look for Wendi. However, when Dan filed the motion well after the divorce was finalized and included the allegations Wendi ‘stole’ the ring, there was really bad blood between Wendi (and her family) and Dan and there was no way she was returning it if was an ‘engagement’ ring – no way Donna would have allowed Wendi to do that. I know it is alleged Wendi agreed to return it ‘if’ Dan’s uncle asked, and apparently he did, but once Donna found out about this, I’m sure she told Wendi that it ‘ain’t happening’.

Your first paragraph (filings) supports the fact that the ring was NOT given to her as an engagement ring.
So how was it given to her as an engagement ring?

 

[Knitpicker]

I don’t think she’s obligated to return it if it’s a gift. But according to Ruth she never wore it and insisted on wearing her grandma’s ring. Apparently according to Dan’s pleadings, she also insisted on him proposing to her with that other ring? But I thought he surprised her with a proposal in Israel? Did she insist on a second proposal with the other ring?

In my opinion, insisting on keeping it seems petty, considering it seems to me like it means way more to the Markel family than it ever did to her. In my opinion, she may possibly have taken it out of spite or because it was valuable, or both. A charitable interpretation could be that she might possibly have wanted it as an heirloom for the boys after their father’s death. But my understanding is it has great sentimental value to the Markel family as it is one of the few items they were able to take with them when they fled Europe during the Holocaust.

I am in agreement that a gift should not be returned. There should have been a prenup that included that ring given back to Dan should there be a divorce. That it should stay in the family.
I gave back an engagement ring when I broke the engagement.
He said to make a necklace out of it but I didn’t feel right about it.

Imo, you don’t give a gift expecting it to be returned.
His uncle may not have thought about a divorce. But since 50% of marriages end in divorce….

 

[Zedzded]

Not sure what the confusion is.
Yes she went to his house. (Most believe this)
Charlie denied it and said she was just passing by his house on the way up North.
I am saying to be passing by would mean she was coming from s Beach.
I believe Charlie was trying to cover for her in 2 ways
1. Saying she was just passing by on the highway (didnt go to his house)
2. Inferring that they were coming from S Beach -(He would have to say this to make them pass by)
If they left from Coral Springs, they would not be passing by, they would be going out of their way.

Some people have said it’s been proven they left from S Beach.
I don’t think we have any evidence so maybe some people have some inside knowledge that hasn’t been made public.

Ah OK, got it.

 

[Going Rogue]

Your first paragraph (filings) supports the fact that the ring was NOT given to her as an engagement ring.
So how was it given to her as an engagement ring?

As I said you need to read between the lines when reading the passage from Dan that I quoted from the filing. He is justifying that she should return it because she “never wore it” and doubles down by saying her parents “insisted upon being proposed to with her grandmother’s ring”.

Do you really think he took her hand in marriage without presenting her with an engagement ring? Regardless of the fact that she also had he grandmothers ring, it seems obvious that the 2 carat ring was given to her when Dan proposed and I think Dan’s wordsmithing is proof of that.

I gave back an engagement ring when I broke the engagement.

If you gave a ring back after an engagement was broken, that's the right thing to do but its an apples to oranges comparison. They were married (for 5 or 6 years?) with two kids – it wasn’t a broken engagement.

 

[Knitpicker]

As I said you need to read between the lines when reading the passage from Dan that I quoted from the filing. He is justifying that she should return it because she “never wore it” and doubles down by saying her parents “insisted upon being proposed to with her grandmother’s ring”.

Do you really think he took her hand in marriage without presenting her with an engagement ring? Regardless of the fact that she also had he grandmothers ring, it seems obvious that the 2 carat ring was given to her when Dan proposed and I think Dan’s wordsmithing is proof of that.



If you gave a ring back after an engagement was broken, that's the right thing to do but its an apples to oranges comparison. They were married (for 5 or 6 years?) with two kids – it wasn’t a broken engagement.

Did I say he didn’t propose to her with a ring? Seems obvious she was proposed to with her grandmothers ring. She wore that ring to the wedding.
I did not give back a ring that was a family heirloom.
Of course I am well aware that she was married.
She still broke the marriage and the ring was part of his family, which she was no longer a part of.
Having said that, I was suprised that Dan did not let her keep the ring to pass it on to the oldest son for when he proposed.

 

[Going Rogue]

Did I say he didn’t propose to her with a ring? Seems obvious she was proposed to with her grandmothers ring. She wore that ring to the wedding.
I did not give back a ring that was a family heirloom.
Of course I am well aware that she was married.
She still broke the marriage and the ring was part of his family, which she was no longer a part of.
Having said that, I was suprised that Dan did not let her keep the ring to pass it on to the oldest son for when he proposed.

I’ll restate what I said because I wasn’t clear. Do you think he took her hand in marriage and didn’t ‘provide’ (as in produce) a ring? Not sure how the grandmothers ring was used symbolically, and she may have worn it on her wedding day, but by all accounts, it seems the 2 carat ring from Dan’s uncle was an engagement ring. I’m not only basing it on the brilliant way Dan wrote the motion, but also based on what Ruth said. She basically said the ring had no meaning to Wendi – she never alleged it was stolen. I’m not trying to justify Wendi not giving it back, I think she should have returned the ring to the Markel family, but I also think she shouldn’t have lied to protect her family ‘if’ she had no role in the plot.

 

[Knitpicker]

I’ll restate what I said because I wasn’t clear. Do you think he took her hand in marriage and didn’t ‘provide’ (as in produce) a ring? Not sure how the grandmothers ring was used symbolically, and she may have worn it on her wedding day, but by all accounts, it seems the 2 carat ring from Dan’s uncle was an engagement ring. I’m not only basing it on the brilliant way Dan wrote the motion, but also based on what Ruth said. She basically said the ring had no meaning to Wendi – she never alleged it was stolen. I’m not trying to justify Wendi not giving it back, I think she should have returned the ring to the Markel family, but I also think she shouldn’t have lied to protect her family ‘if’ she had no role in the plot.

Did you read my last comment? I said he gave her a ring!