UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Cardgame]

Is it possible that CM felt signs of the baby coming and acted immediately?

Or are there any drugs / herbs or practises that women can use to induce birth when they feel the time is right and they want to hurry it along or bring it on immediately? Are there even drugs or medicines that do this?

I don't think there are real and reliable practises that can 'induce' labour, other than those given in a hospital setting. Lots of old wives tales, though.

And of course, she had given birth lots of times before, so she may well have known it was coming in her own bones, even if she couldn't make it happen. JMO.

 

[Twittens]

Is it possible that CM felt signs of the baby coming and acted immediately?

Or are there any drugs / herbs or practises that women can use to induce birth when they feel the time is right and they want to hurry it along or bring it on immediately? Are there even drugs or medicines that do this?

Curry and sex is traditional. We know they had a curry. Don't really want to think about the other bit.

https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-in...bour-and-birth-faqs/can-anything-bring-labour

Constance Marten and lover claim they kept baby 'well nourished'

 

[GreekGal]

When I heard Northumberland I was thinking much further north and somewhere coastal. Haltwhistle, is literally a stones throw over the border with Cumbria and much further south than I imagined.

Yes I was thinking the same and I've actually been to Haltwhistle. I also was also thinking Cumbria at the time. Maybe CM just mixed counties up (giving her the benefit of the doubt).

 

[Alyce]

Trial to resume tomorrow

 

[rightsaidfred]

Trial adjourned until tomorrow

Starting at 11am and finishing by 1pm.

I'm starting to see the appeal of the legal profession!

(Joking, but also FFS, no wonder there are court backlogs)

 

[Alyce]

Starting at 11am and finishing by 1pm.

I'm starting to see the appeal of the legal profession!

(Joking, but also FFS, no wonder there are court backlogs)

I think someone might be having a talk with their KC… just my guess obviously

 

[porkypies]

Along the lines of whether or not the baby was born in the AirBnB - if she was indeed born there, how did they manage that timing? Was CM booking a place to stay while she was in active labor? Did it just happen to work out that way, like they booked the place and then she spontaneously went in to labor while there? Was that The Plan for the birth - and if not, what was?

It is so wild to me (also a mother of 5 little ones born in a slightly longer time frame than CM's babies [mine 2016-2023, hers 2017-2021]) that this woman has been pregnant nearly constantly and has given birth 5 times, with nothing to show for it besides criminal charges. And she does not appear to be devastated about it? MOO.

This has made me think about the age of the placenta/birth, together with the possible (we are told) age of the baby at death.
It seems that Victoria could have been born between 14 December '23 and 4 January '24 (the car fire being on 5 Jan).
So it seems possible that she was born before the air b+b was booked (22 Dec.) and her birth could have been the reason for then finding somewhere out of the way to stay for a few days for CM to recover and cobble together some sort of plan?
I think that moving here and there over the Christmas period with a tiny baby would have made them very conspicuous too.
But I still want to know, where and why does/did the cat come into the picture?

 

[Smccat]

This has made me think about the age of the placenta/birth, together with the possible (we are told) age of the baby at death.
It seems that Victoria could have been born between 14 December '23 and 4 January '24 (the car fire being on 5 Jan).
So it seems possible that she was born before the air b+b was booked (22 Dec.) and her birth could have been the reason for then finding somewhere out of the way to stay for a few days for CM to recover and cobble together some sort of plan?
I think that moving here and there over the Christmas period with a tiny baby would have made them very conspicuous too.
But I still want to know, where and why does/did the cat come into the picture?

The prosecutions assertion was that if Victoria was born before 28th December - when the first car broke down on the M18 in Yorkshire and was subsequently towed to Leeds - why did the recovery driver who was called out not see a baby.

 

[Nikynoo]

The prosecutions assertion was that if Victoria was born before 28th December - when the first car broke down on the M18 in Yorkshire and was subsequently towed to Leeds - why did the recovery driver who was called out not see a baby.

Left her in the car whilst it was being towed? Or she was asleep for the journey. Do we know how long the towing journey was. IIRC that recovery man wasn’t very observant about C and M, but noticed that the car had covered windows as if someone was living in it.

 

[Nikynoo]

This has made me think about the age of the placenta/birth, together with the possible (we are told) age of the baby at death.
It seems that Victoria could have been born between 14 December '23 and 4 January '24 (the car fire being on 5 Jan).
So it seems possible that she was born before the air b+b was booked (22 Dec.) and her birth could have been the reason for then finding somewhere out of the way to stay for a few days for CM to recover and cobble together some sort of plan?
I think that moving here and there over the Christmas period with a tiny baby would have made them very conspicuous too.
But I still want to know, where and why does/did the cat come into the picture?

I don’t think it was before 20th. IIRC when MG went to sign the SRO someone noticed CM was pregnant.

eTA SRO signed 19th December in Sheffield and 26th December in Leeds.source timeline.

 

[Smccat]

Left her in the car whilst it was being towed? Or she was asleep for the journey. Do we know how long the towing journey was. IIRC that recovery man wasn’t very observant about C and M, but noticed that the car had covered windows as if someone was living in it.

Either left in the car or not yet born was implied. Little-Casey specifically asked the jury to consider the context of this IIRC. I took it that he was sure because the two of them CM & MG were in the recovery truck.
Unsure how long the journey was as I don't know exactly where it broke down on the M18 but only that it was towed to Leeds, presumably to a garage.
I don't recall the covered windows bit but do the 'appeared to be living in it' bit.

 

[Smccat]

There was no mention of soiled nappies left at the airbnb. IIRC, nappies were first mentioned in the car fire. I have no idea whether there were any nappies in the car that broke down on 28th December. Does anyone recall what happened to that car? Did the police find and search it?

I would love to know what happened to that first car.
Did the garage put a quick fix on it and it got them to Manchester but they knew it wouldn't last.
Did they part x it against the other. Is someone else driving it now?
Was it dumped?

 

[Alyce]

dbm

 

[porkypies]

The prosecutions assertion was that if Victoria was born before 28th December - when the first car broke down on the M18 in Yorkshire and was subsequently towed to Leeds - why did the recovery driver who was called out not see a baby.

I think there could be reasons, and that the driver 'didn't see' doesn't seem sufficiently robust for me to think that there was no baby.
Since it seems to be a bit of a sketchy event, I would like the recovery driver to have said whether or not he saw a cat in a cat carrier?
And whether CM appeared to be pregnant, because she would have been within 7 days of giving birth at the time of the tow, surely this would have been mentioned by CM/MG or mentionable by the tow driver? It just seems to me to be too hazy to discount for sure, that the baby had already been born.
I also wonder who sold them the next car which soon caught fire, and did that person see or not see a baby, a heavily pregnant CM and/or a cat in a cat carrier?

 

[Zuleika]

Marten had booked her two-bed cottage on Booking.com on December 20, 2022, and asked to check-in that night.
The booking was for six nights and the total cost was £367.20.

Marten claimed to police she gave birth in the holiday cottage

On Marten's version of events the baby was born on December 24, 2022 ( quoted by Prosecution )

Aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover 'trashed holiday cottage'

The couple booked the holiday cottage in Northumbria on December 20, 2022 and asked to check in that night, its owner, Maria Richardson, told the Old Bailey.

www.dailymail.co.uk

the exact address has not been quoted

Northumbria is not Cumbria however and not for nothing did CM choose Northumbria for the Christmas period so I do believe CM on this point that Victoria was born in the B&B.
JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Wonder if neighbours heard sounds of giving birth. Although if all holiday homes/second homes, maybe nobody around over the winter.

Quite possibly not. I've given birth at home twice in a semi detached house (I can hear the neighbours TV or if they shout, which they do, often ) and the neighbours were none the wiser until an ambulance arrived after the fact and they spotted blue lights!

 

[Smccat]

I think there could be reasons, and that the driver 'didn't see' doesn't seem sufficiently robust for me to think that there was no baby.
Since it seems to be a bit of a sketchy event, I would like the recovery driver to have said whether or not he saw a cat in a cat carrier?
And whether CM appeared to be pregnant, because she would have been within 7 days of giving birth at the time of the tow, surely this would have been mentioned by CM/MG or mentionable by the tow driver? It just seems to me to be too hazy to discount for sure, that the baby had already been born.
I also wonder who sold them the next car which soon caught fire, and did that person see or not see a baby, a heavily pregnant CM and/or a cat in a cat carrier?

CM's jacket was puffy. If she was wearing that - and lets say for arguments sake Victoria wasn't under it inside the tow truck - I think it could be quite difficult for a recovery driver to be able to know if that was weight or a pregnancy bump. IMO
Was it night time?

Edited for a typo

 

[Smccat]

Just found this:

Timeline of events in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon case

Mark Gordon and Constance Marten have gone on trial at the Old Bailey where they deny manslaughter by gross negligence of their baby daughter.

www.theargus.co.uk

The defendants’ Suzuki car broke down on the M18 motorway between junctions 5 and 6, and a recovery driver took them to a Sainsbury’s supermarket nearby. Gordon initially asked to be taken to Thorne in South Yorkshire. No baby is seen or heard by the recovery driver.

So the driver towed them to Sainsburys. They just ran out of petrol then?

 

[Sherlockhames]

I think there could be reasons, and that the driver 'didn't see' doesn't seem sufficiently robust for me to think that there was no baby.
Since it seems to be a bit of a sketchy event, I would like the recovery driver to have said whether or not he saw a cat in a cat carrier?
And whether CM appeared to be pregnant, because she would have been within 7 days of giving birth at the time of the tow, surely this would have been mentioned by CM/MG or mentionable by the tow driver? It just seems to me to be too hazy to discount for sure, that the baby had already been born.
I also wonder who sold them the next car which soon caught fire, and did that person see or not see a baby, a heavily pregnant CM and/or a cat in a cat carrier?

It would have been easy to miss a cat in a carrier as I assume it just would have been part of the general luggage in the car (which the driver did seem to indicate he thought was being lived in and the windows were obscured).

But if he didn’t see a baby, then either CM was very successfully concealing her and got lucky she didn’t make a sound such that the driver didn’t notice, or she was still pregnant (possibly concealed under a bulky coat), or, I think the possible worse most troubling explanation - that they did have a baby but were concealing her in the car and just left her there while they were towed, not in a car seat or anything? I think it is therefore reasonable for the prosecution to infer the baby had either not been born or was left concealed in the car. So either they are lying or they were treating her like luggage and hiding her in the car (or, the driver was clueless and CM has Victoria concealed beneath her coat somehow but she would have been carrying/cradling her as there is no mention of a baby carrier anywhere I’ve seen, so it would have been hard for her to move about easily with arms hindered without). But if this is the case I’m not sure that’s great that she was so covered and concealed as to not be noticed. And why would CM be so careful to conceal a baby at this stage - there were not alerts or suggestions they were being pursued at this stage. Which just then points to v bizarre behaviour.

 

[Nikynoo]

I think there could be reasons, and that the driver 'didn't see' doesn't seem sufficiently robust for me to think that there was no baby.
Since it seems to be a bit of a sketchy event, I would like the recovery driver to have said whether or not he saw a cat in a cat carrier?
And whether CM appeared to be pregnant, because she would have been within 7 days of giving birth at the time of the tow, surely this would have been mentioned by CM/MG or mentionable by the tow driver? It just seems to me to be too hazy to discount for sure, that the baby had already been born.
I also wonder who sold them the next car which soon caught fire, and did that person see or not see a baby, a heavily pregnant CM and/or a cat in a cat carrier?

Possibly left the cat in the car in its carrier?