Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[Ravenmoon]

I don't think that the Defense is going to put the theory of Ritual Sacrifice on the stand. That would be opening the door for the Prosecution to cross examine the people involved who were ruled out early on.

JMO the Frank's Memorandum was leaked the way that it was in order for the case to be tried in the public arena. Well done, it has caused confusion, division and suspicion.

IMO, the defense doesn't believe their own story, but Satanic panic is always a good way to play with people and gets a reaction.

 

[sunshineray]

Show me where I said LE's reaction to their murder scene was due to Delphi being a small town.

Sounded to me like it was heavily implied. If I was wrong in that assessment, my apologies.

 

[Salah11]

It’s absolutely ridiculous to say they didn’t look into other suspects more when RA wasn’t even on the radar until 2022 ( I believe).

So no doubt there was a loads of suspects between 2017 and 2022 who were persons of interests who got eliminated along the way.

Mooooooo

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Perhaps because they were not the lead investigators? There was a hierachy? JMT

Yes, BM made an error, which he corrected, but that doesn’t change what I’m talking about. It was about a phone that was reported to TC by JM’s ex TH which had information on it of JM kidnapping someone (a male) because he got ripped off for $4,000. Paid for meth, but didn’t get it, so he kidnapped a friend of the guy until he got the meth. TC reported this to JH who was supposed to pick up the phone for analysis. He never went to pick it up. Go figure. So, TC retrieved it from JM’s ex.

There’s a probable cause affidavit in support of a search warrant on Cara Wieneke’s twitter if you want to look. It’s dated 2019 and signed by TC.

I’ve read the PCA. I can see why a crime that was a drug deal gone bad would deemed unrelated by investigators.

One was drug motivated, involving an adult male, no murder, no sexual component in a large city with an unloaded gun.

The other involved no drugs, likely sexually motivated, two young girls, in an isolated area,
murdered by a sharp instrument.

There is a reason the RSO’s in the Delphi area were looked into immediately, not petty drug dealers.
I have no doubt that if what was found in JM’s phone incriminated him in the slightest he would have been put through the wringer by LE. So far it looks like the ex-girlfriend’s spyware was viewed by Click and the eyewitness account corroborated.

Luckily the investigation is still open so LE can bring him in and reinterview him if necessary. Just like all the other POI’s named by defense.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they do, since defense decided to show their hand during a pre-trial hearing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770069484881031580

 

[DeDee]

Sounded to me like it was heavily implied. If I was wrong in that assessment, my apologies.

Thank you because no matter which city or town, big or small, these crimes occurred, LE's response would be the same of shock and awe is my opinion. This is an unusually terrifying crime. Theirs are atypical murders: 2 young victims in bright daylight are trapped, then taken from a bridge by threat of a gunshot, then killed with a sharp weapon and left in the woods. And, they're not found until the next day. These two precious young girls were deeply, truly and repeatedly traumatized after 2:13pm until their brutal end. The killer(s) need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
MOO

 

[susiQ]

I’ve read the PCA. I can see why a crime that was a drug deal gone bad would deemed unrelated by investigators.

RSBM
I believe this PCA for SW is only one piece of the puzzle. What we haven’t seen is TC’s letter to NM or the totality of his, Ferency’s and Murphy’s work which may shed even more light on JM, EF and RAbr. Perhaps that will tell us more of the tale. I’m inclined to think the D didn’t spill ALL in the FM.
JMO

 

[DeDee]

Perhaps because they were not the lead investigators? There was a hierachy? JMT

Yes, BM made an error, which he corrected, but that doesn’t change what I’m talking about. It was about a phone that was reported to TC by JM’s ex TH which had information on it of JM kidnapping someone (a male) because he got ripped off for $4,000. Paid for meth, but didn’t get it, so he kidnapped a friend of the guy until he got the meth. TC reported this to JH who was supposed to pick up the phone for analysis. He never went to pick it up. Go figure. So, TC retrieved it from JM’s ex.

There’s a probable cause affidavit in support of a search warrant on Cara Wieneke’s twitter if you want to look. It’s dated 2019 and signed by TC.

Let's see that again, shall we?

TC reported this to JH who was supposed to pick up the phone for analysis. He [JH] never went to pick it up. Go figure. So, TC retrieved it from JM’s ex.

So, the phone allegedly had a crime being committed but JH didn't visit the phone's owner. Why not? This is one reason of many reasons why their investigation is flawed, imoo.

 

[DeDee]

I don't think that the Defense is going to put the theory of Ritual Sacrifice on the stand. That would be opening the door for the Prosecution to cross examine the people involved who were ruled out early on.

JMO the Frank's Memorandum was leaked the way that it was in order for the case to be tried in the public arena. Well done, it has caused confusion, division and suspicion.

IMO, the defense doesn't believe their own story, but Satanic panic is always a good way to play with people and gets a reaction.

Do you think JG would allow their murders to be characterized as a sacrifice? I don't or, at least, I hope not.

However, a ritualistic killing is different from a standard homicide or murder because it goes beyond what's necessary to kill people. There's overkill or possibly mutilations. Also, a ritual will usually have some kind of symbolic evidence aka Runes. There may be posing of the bodies and staging of the crime scene. So, there's no doubt their murders were a ritual. I'm not sure the Judge will allow the phrase "ritual sacrifice" into testimony.

AMOOO

 

[layer]

JMO the Frank's Memorandum was leaked the way that it was in order for the case to be tried in the public arena. Well done, it has caused confusion, division and suspicion.

I was confused, divided, and suspicious long, long before the Franks Memorandum.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

RSBM
I believe this PCA for SW is only one piece of the puzzle. What we haven’t seen is TC’s letter to NM or the totality of his, Ferency’s and Murphy’s work which may shed even more light on JM, EF and RAbr. Perhaps that will tell us more of the tale. I’m inclined to think the D didn’t spill ALL in the FM.
JMO

I hear you and you might be right. I appreciate your respectful debate.
I hope for the sake of Justice that all possible POI’s have been thoroughly investigated prior to trial in May.
I want true Justice for Abby & Libby, and those that knew and loved them.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Do you think JG would allow their murders to be characterized as a sacrifice? I don't or, at least, I hope not.

However, a ritualistic killing is different from a standard homicide or murder because it goes beyond what's necessary to kill people. There's overkill or possibly mutilations. Also, a ritual will usually have some kind of symbolic evidence aka Runes. There may be posing of the bodies and staging of the crime scene. So, there's no doubt their murders were a ritual. I'm not sure the Judge will allow the phrase "ritual sacrifice" into testimony.

AMOOO

I can agree that posing the bodies could be interpreted as a type of ritual or what is typically deemed a"signature".

Ives stated that:
It was just not your normal "a person was killed here" crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it,' Ives said. Ives said that the scene was 'odd' and displayed at least three 'signatures', which are unique behaviors by the killer.


Would you want to take a guess, based on what we know now, what three signatures he was speaking of?

My guesses:

1). One girl was nude, one seems to have been redressed.

2). The killer took a girls underwear and a sock from scene.

3). The bodies were posed.


I can't dismiss the branches. There are too many accounts of sticks being used and we also have the words of various podcasters and YouTubers that saw those branches on the bodies.


I considered whether or not these may have been used as a possible message. That perhaps they could have even been Runes. Personally, I have serious doubts about that. As of today, I am of the opinion that the sticks and branches were haphazardly placed in a brief attempt to conceal the bodies. I just don't think that the intention was to replicate runes. I could be wrong. It's also possible that this may be seen as a signature. But ( and I honestly don't know) do murders that take place outside more typically involve attempts to hide the bodies?

As to his statements that the crime scene was " odd in nature". He went on to say that typical murders are more obvious, staging isn't present and that they tend to be based on money, relationship and/ or drugs.



Signatures at a crime scene:
What's the Difference Between a Killer's Signature and M.O.?

A signature is a ritual—something [that] is done that is not necessary to perpetrate that particular crime," he says. "The signature is the ritual that is unique to the offender, and that's what you're looking for."

Please keep in mind that not all signatures are religious in and of themselves. My understanding is that signatures are almost a "tell" regarding the mind of the killer.

I really don't know how JG would rule on the possibility of allowing the idea that this was a sacrifice. I would imagine that would be dependent on the evidence to support the theory.

I do appreciate your thoughts and questions. I am always open to weighing different types of information.








Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

 

[sunshineray]

Do you think JG would allow their murders to be characterized as a sacrifice? I don't or, at least, I hope not.

However, a ritualistic killing is different from a standard homicide or murder because it goes beyond what's necessary to kill people. There's overkill or possibly mutilations. Also, a ritual will usually have some kind of symbolic evidence aka Runes. There may be posing of the bodies and staging of the crime scene. So, there's no doubt their murders were a ritual. I'm not sure the Judge will allow the phrase "ritual sacrifice" into testimony.

AMOOO

There's more than a lot of doubt their murders were ritual. Ritual would mean much repetition of behavior if not almost always including religious overtones. I've not heard of one other instance in Indiana or surrounding states of any other Norse mythology inspired murders, have you? It's more likely someone walking the woods, around the trails and following the creek upstream, may have found branch manipulations or other Norse markings, remembered it and then decided to manipulate the scene to confuse investigations. It worked until many people were vetted and alibis confirmed. RA thought he was being clever by doing that and by admitting he was on the trails that date and time. AJMO

 

[Boxer]

If the Defense is able to get onto the court record during trial that there were Odinists who were investigated, as well as, coupled with his confession* made while the guard at Westville wearing Odin patches then getting an Odin tattoo on his face was watching over him. it may create reasonable doubt for a Juror(s). The reason it's important is because of the potential evidence of Runes arranged at the CS that point toward Odinism.

There should be no reasonable doubt RA is responsible for these crimes. Does the Odin angel jeopardize a conviction? This is my concern.

AT's defense in Idaho4 is handling a Death Penalty case and knew it from the beginning. The P is known for withholding evidence there, too. We also have a gag order in that case.

* It's my impression that RA confessed in one session on one day during one phone call. He told his mother and his wife several times, maybe 5, maybe 7 times in the same phone call.

AMOHO

The crime on the bridge makes him culpable for all that follows.

Help me out here, Boxer.
Wasn't there something odd about Murder charges specifically in Indiana that basically felony murder is implied by the statute without having to be specified? I guess I could search out the old posts.

Cant find the Indiana statute right now. I will look fuether.

felony murder rule

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[sunshineray]

Let's see that again, shall we?

TC reported this to JH who was supposed to pick up the phone for analysis. He [JH] never went to pick it up. Go figure. So, TC retrieved it from JM’s ex.

So, the phone allegedly had a crime being committed but JH didn't visit the phone's owner. Why not? This is one reason of many reasons why their investigation is flawed, imoo.

What did this supposed crime have to do with Abby and Libby being murdered?

 

[Willow Knight]

Call me slow, but why would it be wrong to expose what goes on behind closed doors, even if it is an embarrassment to them. Are employees of the IDOC immune from scrutiny with regard to their behaviour and treatment of inmates? Serious question.

It's a deposition for Abby and Libby.

Call me slow, but why would anyone seeking justice for the murder of two girls want it deflected by throwing shade at the IDOC. Should anyone desire to clean up a department then use another avenue. This deposition should be focused on the murder trial of these two girls.

Bring up all the alleged treatment of Richard Allen, fine. Limit the deposition to how it affects the murder trial of Libby and Abby. Question the GUARDS on their interaction with Richard Allen. No problem.

 

[Willow Knight]

No surprise here! I guess her last appearance on camera while disqualifying the D (which backfired) has made her a bit camera shy? JMHO

No surprise here either! I guess the judge would want to limit what is live streamed. We have already seen some actions of those called as a witness to testify. My opinion is the judge wants to have respect in her court for the murder victims and their families.

 

[susiQ]

I hear you and you might be right. I appreciate your respectful debate.
I hope for the sake of Justice that all possible POI’s have been thoroughly investigated prior to trial in May.
I want true Justice for Abby & Libby, and those that knew and loved them.

Thank you for this! And I agree, the goal is for justice to be served, the right justice. On this we can all agree .

I appreciate it’s difficult for others to understand my take on things. On reflection, I can see how each of our views in relation to this vicious crime is coloured by our own experiences and knowledge, or lack thereof. Many of you have much more experience in following cases than I.

I have more than one theory, but none of them include RA at the moment. Is it possible he has some deep, dark secret he kept to himself that opened him to blackmail and playing a small part in all this? Maybe, but I don’t think so. What really needed to be investigated were JM, RAbr and of course, EF. What was their connection to Delphi individually or collectively. Who were the people they communicated with there? How often, what days? I cannot for the life of me understand how this was not thoroughly examined ESPECIALLY following EF’s admission to his sisters which contained guilty knowledge of the CS that had not been disclosed. Gobsmacked by that one! PW spoke of his dislike of JM in a podcast so we know there was a connection to Delphi. EF was proud he now had a “brother.” Sounds like an initiation of sorts took place. We know there was once a friendship between PW and BH, however the reason given for their falling out is entirely different. Someone is lying. But, those initial interviews by LE are gone! They were both interviewed because they were “tipped in” by others. So, the D were left with mere notes. Not the same.

Maybe this was a targeted killing wrapped in a cloak of mysterious occult practices. I feel it may be possible that certain outside “individuals” were used to perform an “initiation ritual” that may have been anything but. Occult (hidden) religions generally employ initiation ceremonies, some more hideous than others. Some employ “play acting” a death. Say for example, Skull and Bones Society, an ultra posh fraternity at Yale (read Anthony Sutton). I freely admit, my opinions and speculations are based on my own research over many years. I learned something here too, that there are practicing Odinist/Vinlanders in that area, not something I had been exposed to before.

Sorry for the long post. This case reminds me of the quote from Oliver Stone’s JFK, “It’s a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma.” I hope the upcoming trial unwraps it for us. JMHO

 

[susiQ]

No surprise here either! I guess the judge would want to limit what is live streamed. We have already seen some actions of those called as a witness to testify. My opinion is the judge wants to have respect in her court for the murder victims and their families.

I agree that there needs to be an order defining decorum in her court. Keeping MSM cameras out has nothing to do with keeping order in her court. It’s a matter of transparency. As we all know, note taking days on end is not easy nor a reliable form of documentation unless you’re gifted at shorthand. JMO

 

[susiQ]

It's a deposition for Abby and Libby.

RSBM
Sorry, I must disagree. This is a deposition of two Odinist guards and it concerns RA’s right to humane treatment in his place of incarceration. That’s all. MOO

 

[layer]

The crime on the bridge makes him culpable for all that follows.

Cant find the Indiana statute right now. I will look fuether.

felony murder rule

www.law.cornell.edu

Thanks!
What I was trying to recall was a discussion around the specifics of #2 in the original murder charge. I wasn't able to find the discussion on here but I did find an article that related the concerns at the time. The charges have changed several times since then, I believe, so who knows what they currently are.

Regardless of which underlying offense is at play, the murder charges — as they are currently listed under Ind. Code § 35-42-1-1(2) — will require prosecutors to prove as follows: (1) that the named defendant (2) killed (3) each specific victim (4) while “committing or attempting to commit” the underlying offense.

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