Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[FrostedGlass]

Oh sure, I am not naive to that. But let's not pretend MW lawyered up before they could get to the bottom of it, or at least he didn't before he handed over a carefully crafted statement that incriminated himself in narrow terms and exonerated AB. No lawyer would have advised him to do that!

You said this and I thought I was offering you an answer. Sorry for the confusion.

"I wonder why DH never clears up if MW was in that meeting room with the knowledge and permission of Baldwin? Seems important.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't see MW getting a dismissal. He is knee deep in the leaking of those photos and information. He snookered his best friend AB without approval after sneaking in his office and taking them without AB's permission supposedly.

Now that Judge Gull has allowed the string of texts into evidence, it's plain to see his real participation along with AB's.

JMO

The irony is he may have admitted a crime he didn't strictly commit.

 

[mrjitty]

As we push for transparency in the legal system, the sealing of documents, the gag order and no cameras allowed in the courtroom are seen as a slap in our faces.

I am not sure where I land on this issue.

In the Morphew case, the case had to be moved out of the county because the prosecution had a lot of inadmissible evidence in the PCA which then wasn't redacted. So some sealing is actually important if we don't want to contaminate the jury.

And I don't think i'd be at all ok with the prosecutor doing live streams about the case. I really prefer the state to say not much outside of the courtroom.

So there have to be some limits, otherwise the defence in big cases could just be feeding all the evidence out pre-trial?

 

[TL4S]

The irony is he may have admitted a crime he didn't strictly commit.

With respect...I find the idea that AB planned to leak CS photos via MW into the public domain, while also directing RF to blow up youtube with the Odin stuff, etc., to be just as wildly conspiratorial as what others think about LE deleting interviews. That's just my own view. I don't believe either thing happened as it's being presented here. Jmo.

 

[mrjitty]

With respect...I find the idea that AB planned to leak CS photos via MW into the public domain, while also directing RF to blow up youtube with the Odin stuff, etc., to be just as wildly conspiratorial as what others think about LE deleting interviews. That's just my own view. I don't believe either thing happened as it's being presented here. Jmo.

The criminal charge depends only on MWs intent - nothing to do with AB.

Consider a hypothetical where AB has shown MW the Franks and the crime scene photos already, in order to get his advice on how it might play. On one occasion when AB is not present, MW takes photos to study later at home, believing AB won't mind (AB already sent him a copy of the franks). At some still later date, MW decides to leak the photos without AB knowing.

I'd argue, in that scenario, MW never had the subjective criminal intent.

Not saying that happened, but I do wonder if MW was rather foolish to give the statement he gave.

 

[mrjitty]

I agree, the D has gone to extremes at times, and I don't think it serves RA well. The motion to dismiss, though, imo, was more about the record than ever getting the case dismissed. I don't think any judge would have dismissed on those grounds alone.

Agreed. It's a bad thing to have happened, but a heavy lift. IMO the Judge gave considerable latitude. But they just didn't have the evidence.

They don't know what they don't know in regards to the 2017 lost interviews. NMcL wants it just taken at his word that none of it was important or exculpatory, so what are the D supposed to do but get it on the record?

right but AB went much further than that when he suddenly accused the prosecution of hiding other evidence, while examining a witness who did not have that testimony. That isn't putting anything on the record. If he wanted to - it would have been in his pleading. It was hard to escape the conclusion that he wanted to make a wild accusation, not supported by the witness and not in his pleading, for the benefit of the gallery.

I don't, personally, think there is a larger conspiracy. But the way things have been handled by all involved sort of breeds those conspiracies in the public. I'm waiting for evidence at trial, which hopefully clears up my questions. The D is only one party in this, and not even the one with the greatest burden. That's why I'm so concerned about these other issues. They can play a factor in the outcome, as well. Jmo.

Yeah i also don't believe there is any conspiracy. It's just small town america, a punitive justice system, a cranky judge etc

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't see MW getting a dismissal. He is knee deep in the leaking of those photos and information. He snookered his best friend AB without approval after sneaking in his office and taking them without AB's permission supposedly.

Now that Judge Gull has allowed the string of texts into evidence, it's plain to see his real participation along with AB's.

JMO

We'll see in a few days unless there's a continuance.

MW has admitted he took the pictures.
What's up for grabs seems to be if it's an actual crime.
What he did was morally wrong but may not be legally wrong.

 

[mrjitty]

Surely a string of motions and trial management stuff has to drop in the next couple of days if there is to be any hope of getting to trial on schedule?

What say the trial lawyers here?

 

[susane7]

I am not sure where I land on this issue.

In the Morphew case, the case had to be moved out of the county because the prosecution had a lot of inadmissible evidence in the PCA which then wasn't redacted. So some sealing is actually important if we don't want to contaminate the jury.

And I don't think i'd be at all ok with the prosecutor doing live streams about the case. I really prefer the state to say not much outside of the courtroom.

So there have to be some limits, otherwise the defence in big cases could just be feeding all the evidence out pre-trial?

Changing subject, I remember you asked if we shouldn't see many pre-trials motions and hearings now (I didn't know because here we have few pre-trials motions) but a person who claim to be an attorney (I believe he is) said the defense should be telling the judge one moth before the trial this:

"— whether they have affirmative defenses;

— whether they will be asserting any specific alternative suspects (rather than just waving at a group of shifting people that seems to cover 5 towns);

— whether they will be advancing any alibi defense and identifying alibi witnesses

— listing the fact witnesses they will be calling at trial and indicating what portion of the trial they will be testifying

— disclosing experts and explaining their qualifications and opinions in writing

— challenging and asking the judge to refuse to hear prosecution’s expert witnesses

— filing motions in limine to exclude evidence they think the judge should not allow the prosecution to present

— filing a list of stipulated facts after conferring with prosecution

— preparing their witnesses

— finding and interviewing witnesses who may not be aligned with prosecution and can provide helpful testimony"

The fact there is no indication they've done any of it and filing the same rejected arguments makes him to feel they are not serious about going to trial and are preparing for a guilty plea. I don't sure if I agree with him about the guilty plea but I think the D will ask for a continuance. I am still skeptical about the trial on May. Or this month will be a very busy month for D, P and the judge lol.

 

[girlhasnoname]

We'll see in a few days unless there's a continuance.

MW has admitted he took the pictures.
What's up for grabs seems to be if it's an actual crime.
What he did was morally wrong but may not be legally wrong.

True, I have stated before how would any of those people who exposed and leaked the photos of murdered teen girls feel if it had been their daughters? No excuse and definitely legally wrong IMO, unless the D gave them the photos with consent to get spread around on the internet. AB has admitted he was working with MW, not the original 'snookered' story they told Judge Gull by DH's statement in chambers.

We can't dictate morality, but again, I would also ask R&B how would they feel if those pictures were of their daughters or loved ones? Nothing was gained by disseminating those pictures for public consumption, nothing. It exploited Abby & Libby and their families in the most horrific way. I believe Karma has a way of working things like this out.

All MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Surely a string of motions and trial management stuff has to drop in the next couple of days if there is to be any hope of getting to trial on schedule?

What say the trial lawyers here?

I'm concerned about this, too.
Maybe scheduling those things depends on the county or the judge?

I know it's been said often here that she doesn't have to have frequent hearings but as much of a mess that this case is, I'm puzzled why she wouldn't want to.

IMO and I am NAL...we should have been seeing at least a couple of pre-trial conferences and going into final pre-trial conferences phase now.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Changing subject, I remember you asked if we shouldn't see many pre-trials motions and hearings now (I didn't know because here we have few pre-trials motions) but a person who claim to be an attorney (I believe he is) said the defense should be telling the judge one moth before the trial this:

"— whether they have affirmative defenses;

— whether they will be asserting any specific alternative suspects (rather than just waving at a group of shifting people that seems to cover 5 towns);

— whether they will be advancing any alibi defense and identifying alibi witnesses

— listing the fact witnesses they will be calling at trial and indicating what portion of the trial they will be testifying

— disclosing experts and explaining their qualifications and opinions in writing

— challenging and asking the judge to refuse to hear prosecution’s expert witnesses

— filing motions in limine to exclude evidence they think the judge should not allow the prosecution to present

— filing a list of stipulated facts after conferring with prosecution

— preparing their witnesses

— finding and interviewing witnesses who may not be aligned with prosecution and can provide helpful testimony"

The fact there is no indication they've done any of it and filing the same rejected arguments makes him to feel they are not serious about going to trial and are preparing for a guilty plea. I don't sure if I agree with him about the guilty plea but I think the D will ask for a continuance. I am still skeptical about the trial on May. Or this month will be a very busy month for D, P and the judge lol.

Agree, even though the D and their appellate lawyers have stated many times since October that they were ready for the original Jan trial date. They were ready...NOT, but let's push the button on the Motion for Speedy Trial anyway.

I don't believe they had even read and reviewed all the discovery the State had given to them at that time. That was 'footnoted' in their Memo for Franks in September.

JMO

 

[layer]

The judge, fully justifiably IMO, grew exasperated with him and pointed out he had not pleaded any of this in his motion.

Now see, I got a bit of a kick out of that; and ultimately an appreciation for how JG operates while watching her repeatedly try to usher Baldwin to his point.

 

[Emma Peel]

Happy Solar Eclipse Day!

Also:

Hennessy brief TV interview re Contempt

FOX59 exclusive: Attorney for Delphi defense team puzzled by court and prosecutor blow back

 

[FrostedGlass]

True, I have stated before how would any of those people who exposed and leaked the photos of murdered teen girls feel if it had been their daughters? No excuse and definitely legally wrong IMO, unless the D gave them the photos with consent to get spread around on the internet. AB has admitted he was working with MW, not the original 'snookered' story they told Judge Gull by DH's statement in chambers.

We can't dictate morality, but again, I would also ask R&B how would they feel if those pictures were of their daughters or loved ones? Nothing was gained by disseminating those pictures for public consumption, nothing. It exploited Abby & Libby and their families in the most horrific way. I believe Karma has a way of working things like this out.

All MOO

I totally agree with you that it was morally wrong but I'm not sure about the legality of it.
The charge is a criminal misdemeanor (conversion).

MW didn't put the photos on the net; he only shared them with a friend. Now that friend is gone and the people he shared them with, who also shared them with others are not being held responsible... as far as we know.

 

[nadia90]

Please please please give ra the dp

 

[layer]

Please please please give ra the dp

Maybe we should convict him first?

 

[justtrish]

Agree, even though the D and their appellate lawyers have stated many times since October that they were ready for the original Jan trial date. They were ready...NOT, but let's push the button on the Motion for Speedy Trial anyway.

I don't believe they had even read and reviewed all the discovery the State had given to them at that time. That was 'footnoted' in their Memo for Franks in September.

JMO

If they said they were ready and they were not, then is that not another lie? Or wait maybe it's strategy.. Not lies, just strategy because surely a defense attorney would not lie. Just taking many liberties with describing things that maybe could 1% be true so they include it you know with footnotes that maybe it isn't though and it's not lying at all just attempting to taint the jury pool and sway public opinion.

A previous comment mentioned commentary about this possibly being set up for a guilty plea.. surely not that either because they just crowd funded all that money for their experts. That would not be a good look to go that far as to raise funds for experts they were not going to hire.

I hope by some miracle the trial is able to go on next month because the families and the community of Delphi deserve for this to be over and done. How many people have been accused and ran through the mud over this case? How many people have been sleuthed by online people? How much more do these families have to put up with, including RA's family.

I might be thinking far to simply about this, but if he has an alibi then let's go. If the defense has some bombshell evidence about another suspect (not hypotheticals and maybe it was this or that.. but facts) then let's go, if RA walked the trail and then simply went back to his car and went home or to work, then let's go. Let the trial sort it all out and let the cards fall where they may.

 

[Salah11]

If they said they were ready and they were not, then is that not another lie? Or wait maybe it's strategy.. Not lies, just strategy because surely a defense attorney would not lie. Just taking many liberties with describing things that maybe could 1% be true so they include it you know with footnotes that maybe it isn't though and it's not lying at all just attempting to taint the jury pool and sway public opinion.

A previous comment mentioned commentary about this possibly being set up for a guilty plea.. surely not that either because they just crowd funded all that money for their experts. That would not be a good look to go that far as to raise funds for experts they were not going to hire.

I hope by some miracle the trial is able to go on next month because the families and the community of Delphi deserve for this to be over and done. How many people have been accused and ran through the mud over this case? How many people have been sleuthed by online people? How much more do these families have to put up with, including RA's family.

I might be thinking far to simply about this, but if he has an alibi then let's go. If the defense has some bombshell evidence about another suspect (not hypotheticals and maybe it was this or that.. but facts) then let's go, if RA walked the trail and then simply went back to his car and went home or to work, then let's go. Let the trial sort it all out and let the cards fall where they may.

Spot on the family have waited long enough for justice.

I can not begin to imagine how they are not shouting from the rooftops at the injustice of having your babies murdered and dealing with this dog and pony show from the D team. I’m still convinced they will delay it as well as quite clearly they are not ready to go from the game playing we are still seeing with a month to go.

Abhorrent just about covers it!!

 

[Niner]

Mitch Westerman has a hearing date for a motion to dismiss. I suspect no one is going to discuss any details, more than what they have already said, until that's taken care of.

04/11/2024

Pretrial Conference Session: 03/07/2024 1:30 PM, Rescheduled Session: 03/27/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 04/11/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Comment: Defense Motion to Dismiss

Well darn - I thought this hearing was for Allen....