Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

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Universecalling said:
There’s maybe 2% chance that I’m correct in this, but I’ll still try…
Could the protection order mentioned above be referring to VB asking for LE to be present at pick ups and drop offs?
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You can find where I posted a quote from the court files on this subject in Thread 4, post 182 (I couldn't figure out how to link my post!) HTH!
 
I have a few questions: 1. Has LE given the location of the car when it was diverted? 2. Where does TA live in relation to the Twombly’s and Beasley property? I’m trying to get a satellite map image of the area for a better visual understanding of the timeline.
 
Bree1950 said:
I have a few questions: 1. Has LE given the location of the car when it was diverted? 2. Where does TA live in relation to the Twombly’s and Beasley property? I’m trying to get a satellite map image of the area for a better visual understanding of the timeline.
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I found the timeline. I remember someone here posting a road map a few days ago. I looked at the satellite images. I don’t feel that Veronica and Jillian’s car being at Hwy 95 and Road L necessarily means that was the point of diversion. It’s a farming community, but on satellite 95 is a main road through the area and it is flat land. The intersection would be visible for a distance away. I feel they may have been diverted further up the road with possibly someone else driving the car. I can’t find the exact location where the car was found? It’s not in the timeline. They may have driven their car to a different location to ambush since the road diversion, to me, location looks too easy for someone to drive past the scene?
 
Cedars said:
Yes, I'm sure - by criminologists. So not likely to be in the news or SM, but in textbooks and research papers. Psychology of the criminal mind, but also research on deterence.

There may well have been criminal profilers involved in this case, trying to learn what they could about the 4 accused, in order to assist police in, for eg, how to carry out the arrests, and how to do the interviews.

Based on what they could learn about TA, they'd have chosen a particular type of person to interview her: either someone she would respect, or someone who wouldn't threaten her, or someone she could even bond with. Whatever they believed would be most effective, based on her profile. And that person would be very highly trained in how to interview, and well briefed on her personality, likely motives, relationships...

And, it worked, since they got some kind of admission of guilt out of her.

JMO

ETA I just remembered, there's a long interview on youtube with Chris Watts in prison by criminal profilers. I can't recall much, plus he tended to continued to lie about the actual sequence of the murders, even when he doesn't have to. He doesn't want to look like a terrible person, even though, yes, he did kill his wife and children...
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Yes, I recall that Chris Watts interview. Don't remember if any of them posed that question, though.
 
Bree1950 said:
I found the timeline. I remember someone here posting a road map a few days ago. I looked at the satellite images. I don’t feel that Veronica and Jillian’s car being at Hwy 95 and Road L necessarily means that was the point of diversion. It’s a farming community, but on satellite 95 is a main road through the area and it is flat land. The intersection would be visible for a distance away. I feel they may have been diverted further up the road with possibly someone else driving the car. I can’t find the exact location where the car was found? It’s not in the timeline. They may have driven their car to a different location to ambush since the road diversion, to me, location looks too easy for someone to drive past the scene?
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@otto posted one map and someone else posted one slightly different. My general impression was the victims were blocked from proceeding south on 95 and forced to turn west on Road L. Did you see that big animal hauling trailer that the cops confiscated? It belongs to Tad. I had a feeling it could have been that that they used to block the road because it's really long. I don't believe authorities have provided a map with exact locations, yet, and everyone is going from the written reports. I'm not certain, though. I, too, would like to see a map with all of the perps home locations, where the car was blocked and where it was found and where the burial site is so we can get an idea of distances. One thing that astounded me was that we know the attack, then murders and burial all took place in just a couple of hours because CW said Cora and Cole got home around noon.
 
CuriousCricket said:
These 4 sat and waited to be arrested for two weeks/14 days knowing they were being "looked at". Cullum was prepared to run.

So, with three of them appearing to have the funds for a sudden, large vacation, why did they all sit and wait?
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This was something I wondered about too. Perhaps due to VB’s and JK’s loved ones contacting LE so quickly LE was able to ask the 4 suspects to stay in the area in case they were needed for more questioning as the investigation continued? Maybe this if true and the worry that they were under close surveillance prevented them from running?

I wonder if it is possible too that at least in TA’s case the reason she didn’t run is because she couldn’t bring her grandchildren with her? For example, perhaps LE was already suspicious of her and she was aware that if she tried to leave with the kids there was a risk of LE would immediately remove the kids from her home, perhaps charge her with attempted kidnapping and inhibit her ability to speak with them or see them afterwards?
 
Cedars said:
I agree, a sense of proportion frequently gets lost in the aftermath of these kinds of arrests.

IMO, the world is not made up of people (us) who are completely pure, angelic beings who have no narcissistic tendencies, have never acted even remotely hypocritocally, etc, and then those others (them) who are evil incarnate through and through in every aspect of their nature.

IMO, those are exactly the kind of ideas that the killers used to justify committing these murders. And I can see how easy it is for people to generate these convictions.

The facts are, these are people who apparently managed not to kill people, until their 40's and 50's.

They liked children, and dogs, and other people, and got along pretty well: otherwise they'd have been locked up decades ago

I think it's much more realistic to try to understand how people can somehow get to such extremes of thinking and action, not only to get a group of people to agree to kill two mothers, but to somehow fail to consider the consequences for themselves if they got caught.

I haven't been posting, but I noticed way back, when I wrote that TA may have confessed out of remorse, people misunderstood that as feeling empathy for her victims.

That's not what I meant. Very few people feel that about someone they hate. Remorse is feeling sorry that you did something very stupid, and are now going to suffer the consequences.

JMO
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I like your post and agree with it a lot. It also made me think of the potential warning signs that may have been present over time but are so subtle that on average many of us wouldn’t notice or become concerned over until a situation escalates or events culminates to unspeakable loss, tragedy, violence or harm and trauma.

For example, the court documents seem to detail that TA withheld her grandkids from spending time with their parents despite VB’s court-ordered visitation and WR having custody of his kids. Court documents also mention WR that his mother threatened his life with a firearm if he did not submit to her demands and that she planned to kill VB and the judge in February. These patterns or behaviors exhibited by TA, and TC who was also mentioned in aiding her in a few of the documents, may indicate that she does not have respect for human life, human boundaries, the law and other people’s autonomy. IMO She seems to struggle with being told the word no and becomes reactive when her perceived authority over others is challenged, even when it is challenged by her own son or an actual judge.

Additionally, she may have argue that she and the other three suspects committed the murders to protect her grandkids from VB’s brother CW but what made her choices reflected how her grandkids would want to be protected? She murdered their mother. She murdered their mother when she had a multitude of other legal and much less harmful and irreversible alternative solutions to choose from. Did she consider that her grandkids love their mother? Most likely will miss their mother? Or become traumatized hers and JK’s disappearance and murders? Did she consider the emotional and mental harm she might cause them by keeping them apart from their parents? Did TA consider that her grandkids are their own persons with their own emotions and feelings and not extensions of herself that also feel the same hate and hostility and share the same plans she does?

And then there is CT who somehow deems herself fit enough to judge JK’s innocence despite the fact she just participated in the kidnappings and murders of two fellow human beings? As righteous as CT perceived herself it was her daughter and son, not her or her husband, who reacted ethically and did so bravely by informing LE of their parents/stepparents crimes.

CT says VB would no longer be a problem but the thing is how was VB ever CT’s problem? MOO, CT just burrowed TA’s troubles and as a reward, she can partake in the consequences as well. If VB wasn’t a problem for CT before, she is now since as of March 30th every day of her life will be dictated by VB’s and JK’s memories and holding CT accountable for the crimes she committed against them. Perhaps CT idea of innocence is off or perhaps her logic and rationale has been in general.
 
AppleTreeGreen said:
This was something I wondered about too. Perhaps due to VB’s and JK’s loved ones contacting LE so quickly LE was able to ask the 4 suspects to stay in the area in case they were needed for more questioning as the investigation continued? Maybe this if true and the worry that they were under close surveillance prevented them from running?

I wonder if it is possible too that at least in TA’s case the reason she didn’t run is because she couldn’t bring her grandchildren with her? For example, perhaps LE was already suspicious of her and she was aware that if she tried to leave with the kids there was a risk of LE would immediately remove the kids from her home, perhaps charge her with attempted kidnapping and inhibit her ability to speak with them or see them afterwards?
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Tifany also had an upcoming case with Tad over a previous dispute with his ex-wife and assets before their divorce that weren't disclosed. Just because people are land and asset rich doesn't make them cash rich, it takes time to sell and that is heavily documented so they would be flagged and traceable almost immediately to look like they are going to flee. Also, in my own experience with families and estates, sometimes one or a small group hold an almost unrealistic value of said property, especially land generational families because even though the land value has decreased substantially through the years they still hold onto a past illusion from decades or even half a century ago from stories from Memom or Papa before all the jobs left that area. I still don't think the four understood how easily a prepaid/'burner' phone could be tracked just like a regular cellular phone because with CW's testimony, and also the Walmart transaction with Tifany buying all the phones imo a warrant for the cellular triangulation/GPS records could be expedited much more quickly than usual and line it all up. Nor, did they know how quickly the local police department wisely involved the state and FBI in this investigation which added a ton of valuable experience, faster ways to expedite information, because with the threats to a judge and not only the risk to more children including the ones Tifany murdered for, it was apparent that in this grand delusion Tifany created she was ready to do or take out anyone that stood in her way. I also think Cora and Cole didn't understand the police can question a minor without notifying a parent or having a parent present especially if it could compromise an investigation. And, lastly, some people think they can murder more easily than it really is. With a group mentality murder like this, everyone reacts differently afterwards because it's not what they imagined. Not saying this is necessarily the case with all of them, but imo.
 
sunspun said:
View attachment 498533
ETA And it came from here: OSCN Case Details
ETA again, I also posted a copy of another place in the documents where this was again mentioned, and that was in Thread 4, post 182! HTH!
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I'm incredulous that the Sheriff's statement "never saw anything in the visitation exchanges that caused him concern" was considered as a reason to cease supervised exchange of custody. OF COURSE HE DIDN'T. What on earth was Wrangler going to do in his presence that would cause concern? This is the very reason exchanges are made in this manner in situations that are contentious or have potential for volatility.
 
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Artis said:
Does anyone know if there's ever been an interview, with a killer, where the killer was straight out asked, "What the hell were you thinking and how did you ever think you could get away with this?"?
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Not sure about that one…… but I recall an episode of The First 48, when detective Michael Zenoni asked the girlfriend of a double murder suspect, wasn’t the next question you asked your boyfriend who had sent you to retrieve phones from the two slain victims - ‘I mean c-mon C…… what the f—k’? It elicited a convincing response from her, and the look on her face revealed all IMO.

Maybe a close third or so. MOO
 
Do we know anything about Veronica and Jillian's phones yet ? Have they been found ? Maybe they're not saying anything about them yet as they may be a big part of this 5000 piece puzzle ? They don't have to tell us everything .
 
legomonster said:
Tifany also had an upcoming case with Tad over a previous dispute with his ex-wife and assets before their divorce that weren't disclosed. Just because people are land and asset rich doesn't make them cash rich, it takes time to sell and that is heavily documented so they would be flagged and traceable almost immediately to look like they are going to flee. Also, in my own experience with families and estates, sometimes one or a small group hold an almost unrealistic value of said property, especially land generational families because even though the land value has decreased substantially through the years they still hold onto a past illusion from decades or even half a century ago from stories from Memom or Papa before all the jobs left that area. I still don't think the four understood how easily a prepaid/'burner' phone could be tracked just like a regular cellular phone because with CW's testimony, and also the Walmart transaction with Tifany buying all the phones imo a warrant for the cellular triangulation/GPS records could be expedited much more quickly than usual and line it all up. Nor, did they know how quickly the local police department wisely involved the state and FBI in this investigation which added a ton of valuable experience, faster ways to expedite information, because with the threats to a judge and not only the risk to more children including the ones Tifany murdered for, it was apparent that in this grand delusion Tifany created she was ready to do or take out anyone that stood in her way. I also think Cora and Cole didn't understand the police can question a minor without notifying a parent or having a parent present especially if it could compromise an investigation. And, lastly, some people think they can murder more easily than it really is. With a group mentality murder like this, everyone reacts differently afterwards because it's not what they imagined. Not saying this is necessarily the case with all of them, but imo.
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It is saddening to think of what Cora's children may have endured during their mother's courtship and marriage to Cole. Double homicide appears to have been the breaking point.

Since we often see controlling people isolate their partners from friends and family, I'm wondering if Cora's daughter had become her only confidante.
 
Trino said:
Waiting for a trial - if there will be one. Most cases today are plea bargained. If this happens, we will never know exactly how this happened and the whys.
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I may be wrong, but I see these four as being defiant enough that they will not accept a plea bargains. I think they will demand trials, and then, when convicted, decry the corrupt criminal justice system, much as they decry the corrupt government in general, apparently. JMO
 
simlyme said:
Do we know anything about Veronica and Jillian's phones yet ? Have they been found ? Maybe they're not saying anything about them yet as they may be a big part of this 5000 piece puzzle ? They don't have to tell us everything .
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Butler's and Kelley's phones were actively sending signals to their carriers until about 9:42 a.m. and then stopped transmitting, the probable cause documents state. The phones have not been recovered, according to the documents
abc7chicago.com

Bodies of 2 murdered Kansas moms were buried on land leased by suspect, court documents say

All four suspects are accused of plotting the victims' deaths amid a bitter custody battle, according to court documents.
abc7chicago.com abc7chicago.com
 
Bree1950 said:
I have a few questions: 1. Has LE given the location of the car when it was diverted? 2. Where does TA live in relation to the Twombly’s and Beasley property? I’m trying to get a satellite map image of the area for a better visual understanding of the timeline.
Click to expand...
I am not Sherlock H. said:
Posting this (since I do not believe there is a media thread for VB JK case yet).

From CNN online this morning, an article by Rachel Clarke entitled “Accused of double murder: The grandmother, her boyfriend and the couple who hosted anti-government religious meetings”:

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@Bree1950, this map from Sherlock's post above might be helpful to you.
map vb jk.png
 
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