Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[mrjitty]

I think he was definately in the location of the murders more than once, but weather that was on Feb 13 or before that I don't know. I think he parked where he did so he could leave the crime scene without going back across the bridge and on the trail. Since I don't think this was a heat of the moment crime, I think he knew where he would take them and he had locations in mind. They make tripods that are very small.. hand size when folded up. I think he could have been carrying something like that on him or he could have went and set something up for sure.

It's quite possible that the girls were indeed abducted to the location because the killer knew it well and felt safe at it. I don't believe the victims were dumped at the location - it is too close to where the abduction took place and much to risky to access.

 

[mrjitty]

not finding an email under pressure on a video conference happens to me every time lol. it’s clear the defence had the material.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

you are correct there was mention of photos as well! So let me rephrase. The D is concerned about leaks that happened before the Dec 2022 Gag Order. So I believe that is why they (State) objected to relevancy so many times.

The State is trying to show the D in contempt starting with the Gag order and spilling down to podcasters/youtubers.

Unfortunately they can’t be controlled. Civilians can be asked and perhaps a judge can order but I don’t think a gag order from 2022 can be used to blame the prosecution for things they predated their involvement and was done by civilians.
D was in contempt IMO no bones about it.
AMO

 

[mrjitty]

interesting according to the transcript it will take up to two years to brute force MWs phone.

this also answers my remaining question. where does the evidence come from that MW was a consultant etc? there seems to be some statements to that effect in Baldwins police interview.

it didn’t seem that baldwin clarified anything to do with the circumstances of the theft though. simply says that MW fessed to taking the photos of the photos.

be interesting if the judge believes any of this.

 

[WildHuncher]

Unfortunately they can’t be controlled. Civilians can be asked and perhaps a judge can order but I don’t think a gag order from 2022 can be used to blame the prosecution for things they predated their involvement and was done by civilians.
D was in contempt IMO no bones about it.
AMO

Apparently not the big deal I was at first imagining. Photos of clothing in or being recovered from water. Don’t see how this helps the D much at any rate.

 

[vinayd]

interesting according to the transcript it will take up to two years to brute force MWs phone.

this also answers my remaining question. where does the evidence come from that MW was a consultant etc? there seems to be some statements to that effect in Baldwins police interview.

it didn’t seem that baldwin clarified anything to do with the circumstances of the theft though. simply says that MW fessed to taking the photos of the photos.

be interesting if the judge believes any of this.

BBM

Hennessey mentions it in his POST HEARING MEMORANDUM filed 3/25/2024:

State’s Exhibit 10 consists of 20 pages of back-and-forth messages between Mr. Baldwin
and an unidentified person. The State alleged that person was Mr. Westerman. That exhibit was
admitted over objection because it contained Mr. Baldwin’s mental impressions and work
product and failed to identify the other participant. Mr. McLeland read that exchange with
advanced knowledge that it was communications regarding consultation on the case. He never
should have read it.

Then you can read the STATE’S MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF CONTEMPTUOUS CONDUCT filed on 4/1:

The screenshots from the iCloud account of Mitch Westerman. The screenshots are of
text messages between Mitch Westerman and “Andy”. Again, the messages are voluminous but
if the Court will read through them, the Court will clearly see that “Andy” is Andrew Baldwin.
In the text, “Andy” talks about writing the Franks’ memo and how it is a huge endeavor on his
part. In other messages, “Andy” encourages Mitch Westerman to reach out to the media and
push their narrative. “Andy” further states that he has already been in touch with Dateline and
spoke to them. All of this is a violation of the “Gag” order by Andrew Baldwin and the Defense.
When the State was notified of the leaked crime scene photos in early October 2023, the

Defense was on a phone conference with the Court and gave the Court the explanation that Mitch
Westerman broke in and stole the photos. When interviewed by the Indiana State Police,
Andrew Baldwin stated that he gave the Franks’ memo to Mitch Westerman to review. Then, at
the hearing on March 18th, 2024, the Defense implied that Mitch Westerman is now a consultant
of the Defense and any communication between Mitch Westerman and Andrew Baldwin should
be considered work product. The Defense has consistently altered Mitch Westerman’s
involvement in this case. Why didn’t the Defense make the Court and the State aware on the
October 10th, 2023 phone call that Mitch Westerman was a consultant and that he had access to
discovery? It is the State’s belief that the Defense was trying to conceal or diminish Mitch
Westerman’s role in the leak.
A reasonable person can deduce that the Defense was trying to hide the fact that the
Defense was intentionally leaking information. Once the State was notified of the leak, an
investigation began where the State began to gather evidence. As the State got closer to the
source of the leak, the Defense changed their story from Mitch Westerman being a criminal who
broke into their office and stole discovery to Mitch Westerman being a consultant assisting on
the Delphi case whose communication with Defense is protected work product. The Defense
intentionally violated the Court’s orders and leaked discovery information in an effort to push
their narrative out to the public to gauge public response. This was a strategic move by the
Defense in violation of the Court’s orders.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The interesting tidbits to be found when re-reading some of these documents.

There was a lot of discussion as to why the PCA was so skimpy. Some thought there was a lot more evidence and that the PCA was just doing the minimum.

Other folks thought there was bare bones because that's all the P had.

This settles the question for me; Nick's own words:

STATE'S 2nd OBJECTION TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO SUPPRESS

25. That the probable cause affidavit covers all the information that law enforcement had gathered in the investigation in regards to Richard Allen up until Oct. 13th, 2022.
https://www.scribd.com/document/673804346/Objection-Filed

 

[susiQ]

Quote o' the day.
Honestly, I have tried to ignore all the contempt nonsense aside from trying to glean new info. But this case is a recurring freaking nightmare. Can't get a date straight. Can't hold on to video. Can't follow up on the biggest tip of the case, or even locate it for half a decade. Look at this sketch. Look at that sketch. Disregard that sketch. Look at both sketches. Disregard both sketches. Beard. No beard. Younger. Older. Disregard all identifiers. Odin. CSAM Ring. Purple car. Smart car. RL. DN. KK. TK. EF. BH. JM. Ritual. Not necessarily ritual. No sign of SA. SA motivated. DNA. No DNA...
Does my head ever get to stop spinning?

Thank you! I think you managed to fit everything in that’s wrong with this case. Great job @layer!

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Yemelyan posted this bit from the link below over three years ago. About the blue jacket... EF had a blue jacket he wanted to give his sister. Too bad she didn't take it and turn it in to LE. It could have been THE blue jacket. Opportunities lost because...
(snip)
What type of evidence could police be hiding? They have to have holdbacks. They want to make sure that when they get the perpetrator, that person will be saying unique things that have not been out in the public. They say the video is not as long as people think it is. The sheriff says its not anywhere near 8 minutes long. The suspect says no other words on it. They are still doing testing on the cell phone and video. They are exploring items within the video. A lot of blue jackets have been turned in and LE has said they don’t have THE blue jacket yet. Usually cause of death is not a holdback. Why is it held back in this case? Possibly the COD has a connection to the signature. Maybe they weren’t both killed the same way. The behavioralist says if LE wanted to let one piece of information out, it should be COD.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

Kelsie has talked several times about the moment the girls were found. She talks about the shoe, the deer, the phone being used to zoom, but has it ever been said, specifically, that the searcher was looking toward the north side of the creek? I've tended to assume it was the north side if it's...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Melted]

Let me be more specific. RA’s car was captured by the Hoosier Harvestore traveling west before the crimes.
Many have wondered why he was driving from the East ( the long way ) from his home which is located west and south of the crime scene.
An explanation would be that he stopped at the cemetery on the way to parking at CPS and dropped off equipment.
AMO

Do you know what time his car was captured heading west? I don’t have the PCA in front of me.

It seems to me, if his story was true and he was on the trails from 12-1:30 that his car would be captured heading west around 1:30-1:35 as that would be his most direct route home from the cps building.

Was his car captured again heading back east?

Thank you

 

[Boxer]

This is a different set of girls, not the ones that passed BG as they were leaving? Not wanting to confuse any one else, I'm the confused one.

Best to start over.

RA parked at the old CPS bdlg and walked to the Freedom Bridge entrance to the Monon Trail and started walking east toward the Monon High Bridge. He passed 3 (possibly 4) girls within a few minutes of getting on the trail.
These girls were walking west in the trail toward the Freedom High Bridge, their hike was ending.
They continued walking after passing him and continued walking west across the Freedom Bridge which is a pedeatrian oberpass over Interstate Hwy 25.

Just as an additional note, the witness arroved to the area at this time and was driving north on I25 on her way take her MHB FB walking loop.
She saw these same girls that had just passed RA on the trail walking on Freedom Bridge above as her car passed under the bridge.
The witness then continued northbound on i25 a for short distance then turned right (east) onto CR 300 on her way to the Mears entrance to the trail.

 

[FrostedGlass]

3 free articles per person then available through paywall

Cameras in courtrooms: Will the judge in the Delphi double-murder trial allow them? - The Indiana Lawyer

Broadcasters and court officials generally report positive experiences under the state's new camera rules, but the true test likely will come in May when Richard Allen goes on trial for the slayings of two teenage girls near Delphi.

www.theindianalawyer.com

Thanks for the link; Indiana Lawyer articles are really good, IMO.
I really had high hopes for this judge.
(quotes from your article)
"When outlining rules denying camera access and detailing other courtroom decorum for the public and the press at recent court hearings, the court’s docket said they were crafted to “ensure the integrity of the proceedings, to protect the Defendant’s constitutional rights for due process, to ensure the safety of the parties and the public, and to permit public access to criminal proceedings.”

On March 21, Indiana Lawyer asked Gull via email to discuss what comes into play when deciding whether or not to allow cameras in her courtroom and what kind of experiences she had when participating in a pilot camera project that led the Supreme Court to change its policy last year.

She replied the next day, writing: “I’m sorry but I have no time available for such a discussion.” On that same day, the court docket shows she denied requests from Fort Wayne’s WPTA-Channel 21 and WANE-Channel 15 to have cameras in the courtroom for Allen’s May 13 trial."

Cameras in courtrooms: Will the judge in the Delphi double-murder trial allow them? - The Indiana Lawyer

Broadcasters and court officials generally report positive experiences under the state's new camera rules, but the true test likely will come in May when Richard Allen goes on trial for the slayings of two teenage girls near Delphi.

www.theindianalawyer.com

 

[katydid23]

Maybe, the tripod is the "item", they were searching for and didn't name it? My memory is very vague atm, but a certain "item" was looked for and not only at one person's home? .... I need help, it seems.

Could they have been looking for that collapsible tripod in the river, that KAK led them to?

 

[katydid23]

The interesting tidbits to be found when re-reading some of these documents.

There was a lot of discussion as to why the PCA was so skimpy. Some thought there was a lot more evidence and that the PCA was just doing the minimum.

Other folks thought there was bare bones because that's all the P had.

This settles the question for me; Nick's own words:

STATE'S 2nd OBJECTION TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO SUPPRESS

25. That the probable cause affidavit covers all the information that law enforcement had gathered in the investigation in regards to Richard Allen up until Oct. 13th, 2022.
https://www.scribd.com/document/673804346/Objection-Filed

Well, this is April of 2024. In this past year and a half, wouldn't there be more evidence gathered through testing and witness testimony and hired experts?

 

[vinayd]

Well, this is April of 2024. In this past year and a half, wouldn't there be more evidence gathered through testing and witness testimony and hired experts?

Yes all this means to me is they had the bare minimum of probable cause to execute a search warrant.

I believe the smell of marijuana used to be enough for police to search your car. They had probable cause it was RA so maybe they followed him home and made him sit outside until the warrant was signed. Judge signed it, it was executed. It's now in evidence. I agree here in April of 2024 they now have concrete bricks of evidence to add to that wall.

I do understand the concerns of mistakes by the State. And if I can take on the spirit of Doug Carter & bring religion into this lol. I would say something like : "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye"

And that could apply to both teams but there are small matters and glaring matters IMO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Well, this is April of 2024. In this past year and a half, wouldn't there be more evidence gathered through testing and witness testimony and hired experts?

That's not the point.
That was Nick saying that everything they had was in the PCA. No bombshell evidence held back.
Not skimpy because that's all they needed to get the PCA.

MOO

 

[vinayd]

That's not the point.
That was Nick saying that everything they had was in the PCA. No bombshell evidence held back.
Not skimpy because that's all they needed to get the PCA.

MOO

ahhh I gotcha!

 

[katydid23]

That's not the point.
That was Nick saying that everything they had was in the PCA. No bombshell evidence held back.
Not skimpy because that's all they needed to get the PCA.

MOO

Yes, maybe, at THAT time...but they may well have found out other important things since then. IMO

One doesn't need bombshells if they have the basic facts which shows what happened. Add to those basic facts, like the suspect being at the scene of the crime, and having witnesses to him being there, his confessions to the crime, and maybe there does not need to be any bombshells?

 

[DeDee]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

I don't think this statement is true:

No modicums were dished out for the poor girls in the crime scene photos.

The threads erupted in outrage over the CS photos being surreptitiously released.

Modicum meaning:
a small quantity of a particular thing, especially something considered desirable or valuable:

Similar:
particle
degree
speck
fragment
scrap
crumb
grain
taste
shred
mite and so on

 

[Schatz]

Just did a skim of the contempt hearings. D is alleging that not only were searchers first to come upon the CS, but they were the first to photograph it. Hence the provenance of some photos out there is open to question. Do I have that right?

Can that be right? What kind of—OK, advertisers, I won’t say it—joins a search and takes photos like that before the cops arrive?

This is why I question what was leaked by whom. I have not read this document yet and do believe MW and RF did leak something - the F tree photo was discussed allegedly by them in messages that were screenshot. “Leaked” photos of clothes in the creek had been out for awhile before this IIRC. Who took photos and who disseminated them. I am not convinced MW or RF is to blame for the photos of the girls’ bodies that were purportedly leaked. Given that we are now discussing a tripod (and we know LE was searching for recording devices at RL’s) I wonder if the perpetrator(s) are responsible for the more serious leak which was then blamed on MW and RF. I’d really like to see what exactly MW admits to re: specific leaked photos.