Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 10

Thank You Colomom!:blowkiss:

Maybe something tomorrow. Here is a little snip from another thread in the missing forum. Thought I would post it here, because I learned something from it:

"Police executed a search warrant on Kynande's home and her family's vehicles, and took blood and saliva samples from both parents. They later stated that the Bennett residence had been "sanitized" with bleach, but they found transfer stains, which come from fluid spatters being wiped. The stains were linked to Kynande by DNA."

Bolding is mine. Apparently, the type of evidence they are looking at for Maddie has "come through" in other cases. Let's hope it comes through again.......

Salem

colomom said:

Despite that, however, ‘never has there been collected so much evidence from a crime scene by trained teams such as in this situation’.

Click to expand...

THis is a particularly interesting quote.

Hmmm. It sounds as if the face-to-face meeting yielded some clues for the PJ. Since it sounds like they have pretty much eliminated Robert Murat, I wonder if this means they suspect one of the other three present- Fiona Payne, Rachael Oldfield or Russell O'Brien.

Ang50 said:

THis is a particularly interesting quote.

Click to expand...

I think it is very interesting, if they have so much evidence, what are they doing with it in relation to the investigation, so far we have heard of no actual evidence but yet they are saying they have it. When are we going to find out what is going on. What evidence do they have. Hoping to hear soon.

We're in Paris for a day or two. Madeline was not on the news either last night or today.

My husband has an interesting perspective. He said there was no way a perp would enter an apartment, kill a child in that apartment, then remove her body. He said a perp would just take the child.

If the police are saying Madeline's blood was there and the thought was she was killed there, hmmmm.

It isn't a LOT of blood - very very small amount. Maybe she bit the perp? OR It could be she struggled and was injured and bled or was slapped and her lip or nose bled or she was struck on the head to shut her up and it bled. It does not mean she was killed in the room. She may have died from being HIT on the head or suffocated by a hand over her mouth to quiet her but I do not believe it was the intent to kill her there - just immobilize her and silence her quickly.

I think the perp would have LEFT her there if she had been OBVIOUSLY killed in the room - he wouldn't bother to take a dead child out with him. Talk about getting caught "red handed" - lotta risk moving a dead child around where there are people everywhere - and no reason to do it. She wasn't going to be what he wanted dead, for sure. More likely he was in a panic to get her under control and get outta there and used a little too much force...which may or MAY NOT have resulted in her death within a short time or within days. The amount of blood does not point to a murder on the spot to me - too many other ways it could have gotten there.

My Opinion

http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.asp?id=254050&idselect=181&idCanal=181&p=0

(BabelFish Translation ...best I could find at the moment)

Tomorrow it promises to be one day decisive to uncurl it of the inquiry to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. The results of the analyses to the blood found in the apartment of the Ocean Club of where Madeleine disappeared are waited this thursday for the Judiciary Policy.

This day will be able to show determinative for the couple, Kate and Gerry, and to the friends who had been of vacation in Lakes, therefore will be able to again come to be interrogated by the investigators of the PJ.

After the English dogs - two to springer spaniel -, specialists in detecting blood, having joined a spot suspicion in the apartment, the Judiciary Policy sent the vestiges for a laboratory in Birmingham, in England. The Forensics Science Service, organism that carries through the scientific analyses for the English policies, is specialized in determining the ADN in samples very spoiled. The vestiges had been sent during last week for England and the results are give to arrive.

The English couple, Kate and Gerry McCann, have, however, passed the days more collected, looking for to anticipate the habitual meeting with the policy, of form to see clarified some questions on uncurling of the inquiry. One of the subjects that they intend to see explained is the reason of Olegário Sousa, spokesman of the Judiciary Policy, to have given an interview to televisions BBC and ITN, in which assumed, for the first time, the hypothesis of Madeleine McCann, of four years, to be deceased. Friends next to the couple, had given account of the enormous insatisfação of the parents, for not having been informed before the Social Communication, also accusing the Portuguese policy with insensibilidade and delicacy lack.

The policy, however, as selected the cm, does not intend to satisfy the pretension of the parents. To that everything indicates, the investigators intend to have in its ownership the results of the analyses to the blood found in the detected apartment and other biológios vestiges in the inspeccionadas viaturas already before speaking with the McCann. In case that if it confirms the delivery of the same ones, already tomorrow, the Judiciary Policy will be able to call Kate and Gerry to be questioned officially.

It has been remembered that in the last meeting, carried through in the installations of the PJ, the couple it was interrogated separately by the investigators. The objectivo age to confirm the existence of contradictions in the couple in that it says respect to the hour where Madeleine disappeared e, over all, to clarify who was the last person to see the child with life and the one that hours. This meeting, in contrast of that it happened until then, was not become fullfilled in the English consulate in Portimão, but before in the installations the PJ. The director of the PJ of the Algarve, Guilhermino Incarnation, supervised these meeting.

Madeleine McCann disappeared more than has one hundred days of an apartment in the Beach of the Light, close to Lakes, where it passed vacation with the parents, who in the height had supper in a restaurant the 50 meters of the lodging. With the child they were two new gémeos brothers, Sean and Amélie, that slept when the parents had given for the lack of Maddie.

PJ POINTS BATTERIES WITH RESPECT TO DEATH OF MADELEINE MCCANN

The Judiciary Policy still did not discard the other hypotheses, but the thesis of that Madeleine McCann can be deceased, gains more force to each day that passes.

The spokesman of the PJ, Olegário Sousa, affirmed yesterday, in interview to the SIC, that the "possible death of the girl is the line that has more attention of the Judiciary Policy", underlining, however, that "none of the other hypotheses if finds locked up

Questioned on the reasons now to only give importance to this line of inquiry, the chief-inspector enhanced the sensitivity of this case: "Beyond the delicacy, because we are to say of a life human being, of a child. The time plays, clearly, against the Judiciary Policy. The inquiry goes collecting elements, goes working these elements, trying to get test. The determined height this hypothesis, face to the lack of indications in the other hypotheses, started to gain more consistency ".

m relation to the possibility of the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, to be suspicious in the disappearance, the chief-inspector of the Judiciary Policy came back to move away this hypothesis. "Until the o moment", he related Olegário Sousa, the parents and friends are not suspected. For already, the only one arguido and suspecting in the case is Rober Murat, a neighboring British of the aldeamento where she was the McCann family.

Another one of the questions answered for Olegário Sousa said respect to the delay in the discovery of blood in the room of the apartment of the Ocean Club. The spokesman of the Judiciary Policy guaranteed not to have existed imperfections, clarifying some details: "nothing did not fail. It is normal in ours and other countries. Although the death was one of the hypotheses, it was the one that was more far. My colleagues of the laboratory had carried through its work and, passed this time, the death started to gain force. In England these dogs exist, identified some places and them they had made its work ".

"TO THE FIRST SIGHT AN IMPERFECTION WILL HAVE EXISTED"

Jose Manuel Anes, Former-director of the scientific Laboratory of the judiciary policy, recognizes, while observing external, that the inquiry will be able to present imperfections Post office of the Morning
- the blood vestiges alone had been found reason now?
Jose Manuel Anes - It has some hypotheses, but seen for who it is in the exterior is a strange bit the vestiges not to have before been joined. But attention, we do not dominate the details of this inquiry. It has, of fact, a queerness on the part of the people and observers, but if they cannot make negative judgments. The Judiciary Policy has given tests of its ability and after more concrete data if only can make value judgments.

- This can spot the procedures of the inquiry and the proper PJ?
- This examination is of the responsibility of the laboratory of the scientific policy. We still do not know had an imperfection. To the first sight it seems to have had.

- One knows that the joined blood already very would be penetrated in the wall. This harms the resulted quality of the sample and consequentes?
- it is not by chance that the samples had been for the laboratory of Birmingham, in England. We have excellent analysts, but it has experience, devices and protocols of analysis for samples that more are spoiled. They, in this particular one, have this ' know-how '.

- But she continues to be possible to determine the ADN and to have unquestioned conclusions of this sample?
- She makes it difficult, but she can not harm. She continues to be possible to determine the ADN. She will be able to delay more time, because more adequate devices and protocols for spoiled samples exist. - But if she was more early... -... it would be simpler and the analyses could have here been done. But it is necessarily here that doubts are arisen. It has some queerness where the apartment has been freed of this safekeeping of conservation. I do not know if, the certain height, was abandoned the hypothesis of crime in the place.

- What it can happen if the ADN will not be of Madeleine?
- one will be of an English, will be more easy there, because they have a database of ADN. If it will not be of none of the familiar ones or friends and one will be of an English is possible that there if it arrives. - It is possible to say itself since when that blood is in the room? - I am not specialist in biology, but I think to be difficult. It is not impossible to determine the ADN, exactly with spoiled samples of blood. To say that it is has years one or two or if is contemporary, already I cannot say if it is possible.

- Already it will be known if the blood resulted of a aggression?
- Yes clearly. This is part of the ABC of the criminology. If the blood indicated haul, if it has direcção or if it is a circular spot. To this height already they know as the blood appeared there.

- the investigators must not have looked for soon for blood?
- I do not obtain to say as the inquiry of the scene of the crime was made. I do not know what it was made. Now, cause queerness that only appears now. Without knowing details we cannot make judgments, but that he is strange it is.

- How it analyzes this inquiry?
- we do not know if it had imperfections, but it has a bigger problem related with the procedures and organization. It is in the height to reflectirmos in the necessity to form Technician of the Scene of Crime and to think better about the coordination between the police forces.

- Which the importance of these technician?
- the preservation and examination of the crime scene ' Only ' make. They have great experience and they follow protocols of exhausting examination of research. That they keep the tests, that send them for the laboratories and prevent its contamination. They are basic in an inquiry.

PROFILE
Jose Manuel Anes, of 62 years, is one of the appraised criminal attorneys more of the Country. On to the masonry, Manuel Anes was supreme master of the Great Legal Store of Portugal. It entered 1978 in the pictures of the Scientific Laboratory of the Judiciary Policy, where it remained during about 20 years.

today in Diario de Noticias:

http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/08/15/sociedade/pj_acredita_chave_os_amigos_mc_cann.html

PJ believes the key lies with the McCanns’ friends

The PJ’s spokesman for the Madeleine case has made several public statements yesterday, insisting that the possible death of the child is at this point the path the police authorities are giving more strength to.

At a time when the results of the lab tests from Birmingham, England, are awaited, which tested for DNA from the blood residues that were detected in the Ocean Club apartment, in Praia da Luz, close to Lagos, from where Madeleine McCann disappeared on May 3, Policia Judiciaria (PJ) continues to act discreetly on the terrain, listening to conversations in public places and observing the locals, as DN could fin dout.

Furthermore, the investigators hold “a lot of information” and apparently know who originated Madeleine’s death. The key to the mystery lies with the parents’ friends that were dining as a group that night. And the sea is still one of the possibilities to make the body disappear.

Chief inspector Olegario de Sousa, the PJ’s spokesman for the Madeleine case, has repeated the death theory, in an interview to SIC, four days after having admitted that scenario for the first time, to tv stations BBC and ITN. But “until now”, he observed, Maddie’s parents are not suspects in her disappearance. Olegario de Sousa said it was “perfectly normal” for the police to return to the resort’s apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays, in order to collect evidence with dogs that detect cadaver traces. He also guaranteed that “nothing failed” at the beginning of the investigation, and underlined the fact that the Scientific Police then collected the most elevated number of clues that were ever obtained in a case. Yet, it was only now that PJ was informed that there were dogs in England that were specially trained to detect the odour of cadavers.

Speaking to TVI, Olegario admitted that “new arguidos” may be constituted, and that status may fall on people that are presently witnesses in this process.

While they try to assimilate the scenario of their eldest daughter’s death, the McCann couple try to hide from indiscrete looks, as they chose the most expensive real estate area in Praia da Luz, which is mostly inhabited by british citizens, many of which are retired. Located in Luz Parque, and with a view on the sea, the Vista Mar villa, where Madeleine’s parents and her twin siblings have been staying for over a month, “is worth 800 thousand euros”, and was built “less than ten years ago”, according to a real estate agent in the area.

seems like I had read somewhere in all this info that it looked like a attempt was made to wipe blood splatters from a wall, I don't know if the blood was visible to le or if they used luminol to investigate if blood could be found, to me, if it had been wiped away, then it would really be out of the ordinary for a kidnapper or adbuctor to take time to clean blood up, it just wouldn't make since to take that time to remove blood when kidnapping a child, but if a parent or gaurdian did something to her and got to rough, then cleaning up the blood would be more in the normal habit of someone wanting to cover up a crime.

Here's a new story about the babysitting issue:

http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/331952-100796-0-Crecen-las-sospechas-contra-los-padres-Madeleine

My translator is on strike, but apparently the hotel's Silvia somebody (I remember she was involved with the search that first night) has said that the McCann's declined the sitter service even though she told them that burglaries were common. And that they declined it that "same night", meaning May 3. Now I wonder if they actually declined it at night--post 6PM--or just on that very day. I would also wonder if it was customary for Silvia to offer the service to each family, or was this because of problems with the McCann children on previous nights? Can you imagine turning down a sitter if you have just been informed that there are burglars at work in the resort? ("Oh, no, burglars only want valuable items, so they won't harm my kids even if they do enter the apartment")

Ohhh.... what if this happened as a possible event chain:

They went out to dinner but didn't check on the kids like they claim they were doing (this even would cover if they did check). If they sedated Maddie even in the slightest, she may have been in an inbetween state (I get that with my medications) and thought she was still fully awake, capable of playing like normal. If she's not usually under sedation, she wouldn't understand the feeling probably.

Perhaps she started jumping up and down on the bed, slipped, fell, and that'd account for a little blood. It'd also account for the sniffer dogs 2 hour or more mark, if no one checked on her.. or if they did, they may have seen rumpled blankets and thought she was still there in bed rather than on the floor.

Maybe she was tossing her own toy around too, jump up and down on the bed, throwing her cat so it flies as well. Super CuddleCat gets stuck and she can't reach, maybe she tried to jump up there. Not out of a tantrum, but just fun to begin with and later to rescue her kitty.

Just an idea, not fact in any way. Just something I was thinking of today when I was standing on the bed to change a lightbulb this morning and had to resist the urge to jump up and down on the bed.

DIÁRIO DE NOTÍCIAS - 15/08/2007
Society
THE INVESTIGATION ON THE CRIME SCENE
José Manuel M. Anes
Former specialist in criminal law at the PJ Scientific Police Laboratory

Madeleine´s case has been targeted by conspiracy comments, inducing that the British Government asked ours (and our police) to exclusively follow the abduction hypothesis. Yet, don't confuse between Sky News and other media and the British police. It is actually the British police and the scent dogs, put at the Pj´s disposal and trained to trace non-fresh blood and the scent of a dead body, which led to the discovery, three months after the little girl´s disappearance, of blood traces on a wall and a curtain in the McCanns´apartment. This not only contradicts the abduction conspiracy theory but also presents a delicate task to our PJ as well as to those, like myself and a lot of others, who have always maintained our ability and hard work and have no reason to change our minds.

In any case, even more than underlining possible failures and especially considering that the analysis of the discovered traces of blood is still being done in Birmingham, Britain without knowing to whom they belong (and if they are relevant to the case), the interesting point lies on thinking about a present-day vogue (through a television series), which is the scene of the crime.

The fundamental point of a criminal investigation is based on the protection and examination of the crime scene and the consequent gathering of material evidence. If we have excellent Criminal Investigators (as we do have), excellent analysts at the Scientific Police Laboratory (as we do have), but without specialists exclusively trained for the Scene of the Crime, it will be difficult to achieve a good job. The CSI TV series has implied some confusion in the public minds, since criminalists ("forensics") there not only perform the examination of the crime scene but also the criminal investigation and the contacts with the forensic laboratory for analysis. This is not valid nowadays, at least in the countries with a modern police team. Thus it is necessary to have specialised tecnicians in protecting, in registering (drawing, picture, video, etc.) and in examining the scene of the crime (research of various items and traces), who should be neither laboratory analysts nor Criminal Investigators; obviously there are already fingerprints specialists, photographs, artists and laboratory criminalists, but we are talking about another kind of professional. They are called, in the English-speaking countries, as "crime-scene officers", police officers whose skill is in the investigation of a crime and are notified with the shortest delay to immediately come to the scene, the "first responders" who arrive early and are first informed of the facts (in Portugal, normally the GNR and PSP) and who expert isolate the scene of the crime.

This is a situation that requests the greatest coordination between the police and the security forces in Portugal, and deserves the highest integrity of all, starting from the governmental authorities supervising those bodies. But it is also a concern of the justice, since if the scene of the crime has not been duly protected, everything that has been collected can be questioned (putting forward possible contamination, for example), and in the same way, if a material evidence has escaped from the examiners, the investigation of the crime can dramatically be jeopardized. All these precautionary measures (and other ones) are fundamental to ensure the necessary preservation of the material evidence which a good justice is based on. It is therefore necessary for us to provide good technicians for the scene of the crime exclusively dedicated to that task to be performed with professionalism and according to the worldwide stated examination procedures of the crime scene (either on closed spaces or in the open air).

Jdee said:

Good point and Madeleine dieing in the apartment alone by some accident and her parents discovering her deceased had not occured to me.

Click to expand...

But in that case, how should the parents have had the opportunity to remove the body from the apartment? And didn't they take turns with their friends at the tapas bar to check on all their kids?

Time line questions:
- When was Madeleine last seen alive in public?
- When did the McCann's go to the tapas bar?

http://mccannphotoblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/ocean-club-complex.html

Here's a link to some pictures that I hadn't seen before. There are several aerial views of the Ocean Club- the one with big red labels makes it very clear how far away the apartment was, and also how the apartment was located on a rather busy road.

http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/331952-100796-0-Crecen-las-sospechas-contra-los-padres-Madeleine

"The search for a new personality in the desperate search of the small British four-year-old is complicating even more the McCanns' situation.

The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the same night on which Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but they rejected that". Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but even knowing this, Maddie's parents did not accept it. Batista confirmed in an interview with the website Globo.com that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again. Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.

"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "the parents of the girl that night were very unconcerned", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder.

Why did the parents leave the children alone? It is not normal, safe or acceptable to leave 2 and 3 year old children alone. What explanation did the parents give. The explanation I heard is that they did not trust strangers However, this explanation is nullinvoid by the fact they left the chidren in the care of strangers in the daycare during the days. So the quesiton I would like an answer to is why did they leave them alone? okay I have another question , question number 2 why did they think this was okay to do?

mjak

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/16/nmaddy116.xml

Madeleine sniffer dogs detect scent of body

A British sniffer dog detected the scent of a body inside the apartment of Madeleine McCann, according to Portuguese police......

Mixed News:

'Blood not Madeleine's'

August 16, 2007 08:05am


MISSING UK girl Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, police said today as tests revealed blood found where she was sleeping was not hers.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence, including traces of blood found in the Praia da Luz apartment where the McCann family had been staying, and the detection of the scent of human remains there by British sniffer dogs.

Mr Sousa also revealed that new official suspects, known as arguidos, may soon be named.

His revelation comes on the same day as a report that the blood found in the bedroom where the four-year-old had been sleeping was not hers.

The Times reported that forensic results showed the blood came from a man.


(more)

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22254160-5008620,00.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=475623&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Madeleine 'died the night she vanished' says police chief

Madeleine McCann died on the night she vanished, a Portuguese police chief has said.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa said his men had gathered a "record" amount of evidence.....