Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 10

sherri79 said:

i understand what you are saying. i was the mom giving birth to 1 of those babies you spoke of. i remember how the doctors and nurses behaved. some seemed nice and some seemed cold but the all did their job. they spoke in soft tones and told me they were sorry for my loss and still did their jobs. how many of you could watch a mother cry over her dead child and not shed a tear? most people cry at that when it is in a movie and they know it is not real. the doctors and nurses did not even look as they might tear up. somehow they turned off their emotions and just did their job. thank god they did. i needed doctors who would make sure i could still have kids later despite the fact i said i did not care. i needed nurses that made sure i stayed health during labor and got pictures of my child. i understand that doctors must cut themselves off to do their jobs. how do you cut yourself off from you own child? doctors are not robots. why is a doctor not supposed to operate on their own child? maybe i would buy that a rare doctor out there can cut themselves off in a case like this.... but 2 doctors who are married and can cut themselves off from a missing and possibly dead child?in the case of a job ok. in the case of their own child? i just dont see it.

Click to expand...

sherri, I am so sorry for your experience. Let me tell you, those doctors and nurses cared about what was going on with you more than you will ever know. If we all showed the true emotion of what we felt in those situations it would be so much more difficult for others involved. I for one wouold have needed heavy medication if I internalized each and every experience over the years. I will tell you though that I can remember the name and faces of the first mom and baby I ever delivered, I can remember the first young girl who put her baby up for adoption, I can remember the first stillborn and the first family I had that delivered a baby with severe deformities. All of these circumstances and situations have changed and molded me into who I am today.

As far as the McCanns go, I do believe that there is a possibility that they are somehow involved. In that case it may be very easy for them to disconnect. If they are not involved then it is possible that they have unconciously begun to use a learned defense mechanism. With that said their grief in private may be very different from what we see in the news.

Jeana (DP) said:

I absolutely agree with you. However, I believe most of those doctors and nurses' training goes out the window when its one of THEIR OWN children. I very seriously doubt if they would be able to stiffle the feelings of having one of their own in those situations.

Click to expand...

Jeana, I have never had a situtation where one of my own children have been seriously hurt or injured much less missing. I can't imagine though if I was in the McCanns situation that I would respond as they have but, anything is possible.

Brefie said:

Where can I find the source? TIA

Click to expand...

The Sol Newspaper in Portugal.

CarpeDiem said:

The Sol Newspaper in Portugal.

Click to expand...

Thanks, CD. I thought it had been back in one of the earlier threads because I felt I'd read about it when we first heard about Mrs. Fenn. Although I think she was called by a different name at the time- Senn or something like that.

Juliana said:

I think someone posted this info before but I can't find it now: Does anyone know if Rusell O'Brien is a doctor and if so, what is his specialty?

Btw, you all are great sleuthers and obviously care about Madeleine so much. I read often but rarely post. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hi....yes, he is...but I can't remember his specialty...but had some experience or had taken courses in sedation, I think....

englishleigh said:

Hi....yes, he is...but I can't remember his specialty...but had some experience or had taken courses in sedation, I think....

Click to expand...

Thanks. That's what I was wondering, re: sedation. ditto

I wondered how Russell O'Brien could feel so confident leaving a vomiting child, that the child wouldn't aspirate, unless he gave the child a dose of something like Phenergan. It knocks out nausea but also makes someone very, very sleepy.

This is the timetable at the Tapas Bar as best as I can reconstruct it. The movements of some of the McCann friends don't make sense.

Tapas Timetable:

5:30 to 6:00 pm McCanns pick up their children from the crèche.

6:30 McCanns take Madeleine out for a snack.

7:30 (approx) Madeleine and the twins go to bed.

8:30 McCanns arrive at the Tapas Bar.

At Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate McCann ---------------------------------- Everyone else
Gerry McCann

8:45 Russell O’Brien, Matthew and Rachael Oldfield arrive at Tapas Bar.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Jane Tanner
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Fiona Payne
Russell O’Brien --------------------------------- David Payne
Rachael Oldfield -------------------------------- Dianne Webster
Mathew Oldfield? (May have arrived later)

8:55 David and Fiona Payne arrive at Tapas Bar. David says all members, including Mathew, Russell and Jane, were there. Rachael Oldfield claims Mathew arrived a few minutes after the Paynes. No specific mention is made of Fiona’s mother, Dianne Webster, or Jane Tanner’s arrival.

Kate
Gerry
Russell
Rachael
Mathew
Fiona Payne
David Payne
Dianne Webster? (Assume she arrived with her daughter/son-in-law.
Jane Tanner? (No arrival time given)

9:00 Mathew Oldfield checks on the children- he went back to apartments to do first check 5-15 minutes after his arrival time, depending on witness statements.

At Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate ------------------------------------------- Mathew
Gerry
Russell
Rachael
Fiona
David
Jane?
Dianne

9:05 Gerry leaves to check on children- this is corroborated by acquaintance Jeremy Wilkins who encounters Gerry while out walking his own child- they talk for a few minutes. Neither of the men see Jane Tanner (nor her, them) when she leaves for her child-check five minutes later, even though they are using the same narrow street to and from the Tapas Bar. Nothing is said about whether Gerry or Jane cross paths with Mathew Oldfield. Gerry will later report seeing light in the bedroom and the door open but assumed all was okay.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew (not back yet)
Russell ---------------------------------------- Gerry
Rachael
Fiona
David
Dianne
Jane?

9:10 Jane Tanner is now checking on children- the 3rd person in ten minutes. If each parent was responsible for own child-check, this makes sense. But, when you take into account that Mathew Oldfield claims to have checked on the McCann children later on, it doesn’t. Also, has Jane already joined them at the Tapas Bar and left the group to check, or was her first appearance at the Bar after she checked the children? According to reports, one of her daughters was vomiting.
Jane, Gerry and Mathew have never said whether they ran into each other coming and going between the Tapas Bar and the apartments that night. But if this account is true, they must have seen each other.
Jane Tanner will also claim she saw a man in the dim light outside the apartment building holding something wrapped in a blanket and hurrying away. After Robert Murat is named an arguido, she will positively state it was him, and she will give a detailed description of him, claiming he was carrying a child who looked like Madeleine and dressed like her. However, she doesn’t mention this to anyone at the Tapas Bar at the time.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Russell ---------------------------------------- Gerry
Rachael --------------------------------------- Jane
Fiona
David
Dianne

9:25 Gerry returns to the Tapas Bar, and Russell O’Brien will later tell the PJ that he and Mathew plan to visit the children. How can Mathew check on the kids when, if the reports are accurate, he hadn’t returned from his first visit? Neither is there any testimony of Jane’s return, so why is Russell checking their children if she is still with them?

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Gerry (after 20 min. absence) ------------------ Russell
Rachael --------------------------------------- Jane
Fiona
David
Dianne

9:30 Mathew and Russell leave the Tapas Bar. Mathew will also state that he saw light in the McCann apartment, and Russell will say his daughter was vomiting and he had to change her sheets. But housekeeping has no record of him asking for clean linens.
Najova Chekaya, aerobics instructor and quiz director, joins the party at Gerry’s invitation. She will later state that one chair was empty and nobody got up from the table except Kate (around 10:00).

At Tapas Bar ---------------------------------- Not There

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Russell
Rachael
Fiona
David
Jane -------------------- or ------------------ Jane?
Dianne

9:35 Mathew Oldfield returns to Tapas Bar.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew?
Gerry
Rachael
Mathew
Fiona
David
Jane? (When did she rejoin group?)
Dianne
Najova

9:45 Jane Tanner confirms that at this time, and not at 9:30, Russell and Mathew left to check on children. However, this is unlikely as Najova Chekaya makes no note of this and says Mathew was there.

Kate ------------------------------------------ Mathew?
Gerry ----------------------------------------- Russell?
Rachael
Fiona
David
Dianne
Najova
Jane? (When did she rejoin group?)

9:55 Russell O’Brien returns to Tapas Bar.

Kate
Gerry
Russell (gone either 10 or 25 minutes)
Rachael
Mathew?
Fiona
David
Dianne
Jane
Najova

10:00 Kate McCann goes to the apartment and discovers Madeleine missing. She goes back to the Tapas Bar to sound the alarm. They all leave the table except Dianne Webster. No mention is given about her departure except to say she returned to the bar at 10:05 for her purse and camera. Since, according to Jane’s testimony, Mathew hadn’t returned to the restaurant before Kate left, when did he get back?


If any of the McCann friends are suspected of harming Madeleine, I doubt it's Rachael Oldfield, the Paynes or Fiona's mother, Dianne. They didn't leave the table the entire time.

wow Cali this is great! Thanks for all your hard work. I am dizzy now with all the coming and going at that table! I know for certain that when my husband and I go out to eat we do take note of those around us and who comes and goes. Also have you ever noticed when you enter a restaurant that most everyone looks up at you when you enter and are shown your table?
Yes the staff that night may have been busy that night and could have been wrong about not seeing anyone leave that table.. but I doubt those around the table also eating would have missed all the coming and goings. I still state that I do not think those children were checked on as they have all stated. It is the only explanation for me of a stranger abduction.

I agree about the inconsistency between the claims of the group and the claims of the tapas staff - if the group was as diligent as stated in checking on the kids, it would have been noticed. Certainly, the MCCann party had reason to lie about how often they checked on the children - they don't WANT to be perceived as neglectful. I can't imagine why the tapas staff would have reason to lie.

There is also reason to believe that in prior evenings when the McCann grouped dined outside of the resort that the children weren't checked on at all. The crying for over an hour, as reported by Mrs Fenn seems to suggest that this is true.


Additionally, if this claimed timeline is true and the McCann group was diligent about checking the children every half hour, then why two nights before would Madeleine be crying for an hour and a half, according to Mrs Fenn?

I'm considering this scenario though: What if the child was killed when someone stopped into the apartment during a stranger abduction - the stranger was in the apartment and in a desperate attempt to keep the child quiet managed to kill her? I have no idea why they would take the body in this case, though.

I'm also very considering that Madeleine left the apartment on her own accord and was THEN abducted by a pedophiile of opportunity. Her hiding in the bushes shows an indepdence that could lead to her venturing outside on her own in search of her parents.

And then...who would have known that the parents had left the children unattended? Other guests? Maybe. The McCann group? Certainly. Is there a pedophile among them?

Great timeline as to the timeline at the Tapas Bar Calikid, as usual great sleuthing. But something is fishy about it, even if the bar staff where busy they would surely notice the goings and comings of the guests at the McCann table, that is why I tend to believe the statements of the tapas bar employees.

Please continue on Thread No. 11. Thanks.