Starting from scratch

believe09 said:

OK-I did some reading on lacunes. I can source everything for you guys, but small lacunes are more likely to be representative (65% chance) of plaque deposits in the brain due to vascular disease that is NOT necessarily pronounced or profound. As opposed to a previous closed head injury. They can also be representative of a stroke if they were thrown from the carotid artery in the neck. The only way to properly dx them is if there is an MRI-the MRI can determine if they are lesions or cysts.

The neurological reports I read also indicated that there are many neurologists that believe they are normal signs of an aging brain...for example, we know that certain forms of dementia are caused by plaque deposits in the brain. Whose to say that if the objects on the CT were actually lacunes they were not the start of what might someday be an age related "forgetfulness" when BK is in his 80's???

So what if they missed the fact that he had a stroke?

Click to expand...

believe09 said:

You could be right. I would like to know what kept him there the two weeks-they must have been ruling out something or there must have been a belief regarding something for them not to have kicked him to Memorial sooner. JMO.

Click to expand...

Roselvr said:

Ok, so that's a good place to start with questions.



But, and this is a big but; which you may know better then I do..
When you got the Xrays in March, it was pretty much the start of their calendar year, correct?

This happened in August; we don't know how much of those "free health care dollars" they had used at this point.

Aren't hospitals allowed to deny service for lack of not being able to pay - or should I say, were they allowed to back then?

I see it on the TV; and while I realize what we see on TV is not necessarily true; I feel it's possible that they did not give him their all due to the information they had that day.

We know Benjaman was healthy except for what landed him there. The tests run did not show he was thought to be homeless.

Click to expand...

Roselvr said:

Ok, so that's a good place to start with questions.



But, and this is a big but; which you may know better then I do..
When you got the Xrays in March, it was pretty much the start of their calendar year, correct?

This happened in August; we don't know how much of those "free health care dollars" they had used at this point.

Aren't hospitals allowed to deny service for lack of not being able to pay - or should I say, were they allowed to back then?

I see it on the TV; and while I realize what we see on TV is not necessarily true; I feel it's possible that they did not give him their all due to the information they had that day.

We know Benjaman was healthy except for what landed him there. The tests run did not show he was thought to be homeless.

Click to expand...

believe09 said:

My bold. I do not know this to be true-have you seen anything that indicates this?? :waitasec:

Click to expand...

Roselvr said:

Just what's been posted from the ER Doc notes- I'm trying to take NB's statements/opinions out.

Upon admission, the ER doctor reported him as appearing as a well-developed and well-nourished middle-aged man, although he had depressed neurological reflexes, and rapid heartbeat. His liver function was normal, alcohol and drug screen was negative, his condition on admission was considered serious per the ER doctor's report. He was sent up to the Neuro. A CT scan of the head was normal except for several small lacunes (depressions) in the right cerebellar hemisphere.

The attending doctor states in his report that Mr. Kyle's labs are "surprisingly within normal limits

We also know he was legally blind.

Click to expand...

Zaha said:

Can lacunes on right cerebellar hemisphere indicate what type of/or cause amnesia?

Click to expand...

• Richmond Hill, Ga - 8/31/04 - 2 week stay @ St. Joseph's Hospital
• Transferred to Memorial Health University Medical Center, Savannah.
• In November 2004, he was taken to the J.C. Lewis Health Center.

• Mr. Kyle's fingerprints are in AFIS.
• His prints have been digitally and manually compared to Military Records in the event that he was active in any of the services.

• Mr. Kyle's Primary DNA is in CODIS.
• I have been told by NB that his MtDNA is located in a private database that they are choosing not to disclose.
• His Paternal DNA has been processed by the Family Tree DNA database in Houston, TX.

bam said:

I think it's important because there may be new places to search for identity @ soup kitchens, homeless shelters and the like. Does anyone else have an opinion such as this? I don't think anyone thinks less of Bk if he was a vagrant or not. He is still a human being.

Click to expand...

Cubby said:

I wasn't sure whether I should post this here, or in the general discussion thread. Is this now the 'new' general discussion thread?:waitasec: If so, can we have the older GD threads locked? (I want to make sure I am posting in the correct place and not having too much discussion in too many places here. )

If I may respectfully ask, and I mean no disrespect to any poster here or Mr. Kyle, are the medical discussions pertaining to trying to determine whether or not Mr. Kyle was a transient prior to being found? I'm somewhat confused as to whether or not a polite discussion/debate is occuring as to whether or not Mr. Kyle was a transient. If he was or not, he still obviously needs to be id'd. I'm trying to rack my brain on where this is going and how determining, if I am reading this correctly, whether or not he was a transient for a period of time prior to his being located would benefit the quest to identify him. Am I just brain dead today?

I really mean no disrespect, so I hope this did not offend anyone, I am just confused as to why it appears a higher priority, to determine whether or not he was a transient.

Thanks all!

Click to expand...

believe09 said:

The Center for Justice Administration at Armstrong University constructed a flyer in late August of 2009, which was distributed via LE channels beginning in September. All of my personal info was on it for contact, so forgive me if I do not post a copy of the flyer here, lol-I could not figure out how to redact it. The preference of NB was that the leads requiring further investigation be forwarded to her and her "team." You will see in this thread that it was relatively easy to vet the majority of them. I wanted you guys to get a sense of what was called in and from where....

Click to expand...

Roselvr said:

Scars
Mr. Kyle has well documented scars. We do not know what all of the scars are from however, so let's relist them here without the speculation as to what caused them unless it has been confirmed.
• Two parallel surgical scars on left elbow (from reparative surgery.) XRAYS taken 3/09 documented a 5 inch pin. I have not seen the XRAY of BK's elbow, but was read the results.
• Surgical scar on front of neck.
• Small round scar on left side of face near chin.
• the elbow surgery has been independently verified with an XRAY. IIRC, the guess of cervical surgery has not.

Hospital admission - Richmond Hill, Ga - 8/31/04 - 2 week stay @ St. Joseph's Hospital, he was then transferred to Memorial Health University Medical Center. In November 2004, he was taken to the J.C. Lewis Health Center,

Head finding-
We have a copy paste of some CT scan results done by the ER doc with NB notes included in them -
The doctor notes that there are 3 small lacunes noted in the CT result. *Noted by the ER Doc as three small white areas in BK's brain on the right side.

NB notes that lacunes are depressions in the skull-

From Believe - in fact, lacunes are defined as follows from the Encyclopedia Britannica - "arteries penetrating deep into the brain become blocked by atherosclerosis, causing areas of surrounding tissue to lose their blood supply. The tissue may then wither, creating minute holes, called lacunes. A succession of transient ischemic attacks over the years can riddle the brain, causing dementia."

* They could be a sign of an aging brain, they could be a sign of a previous stroke but they are not definitive examples of a previous skull fracture or depression.
Believe's notes - I think the key to this finding is whether or not there were bumps, depressions, contusions, cuts etc...that corresponded with this. The Doc makes no note of this in the copy paste from NB email. There is no finding I can see indicating that there was a fracture.

Height/Weight/Hair/Eyes
Mr. Kyle is 5'11", was 240 when found (documented via email with Nurse Betty) and is currently 225.

Mr. Kyle has grey hair, blue-green eyes. Mr. Kyle had corrective surgery to remove cataracts 8 months after his discovery. (time frame was related by Mr. Kyle.) His blindness, which doctors diagnosed as bad cataracts, was repaired by donated surgery.

There is anecdotal information indicating that cataract surgery may change the color of the iris, but I could not find any studies to verify this. In otherwords, I am not 100% that his eye color now is the same distinctive color it was prior to his surgery.

Dental/Fingerprints
Mr. Kyle is missing teeth:
• Three teeth missing from upper front and one tooth missing from upper right side of mouth. (I do not know which teeth specifically.)
• Dental XRAYS are in the NCIC database.
Mr. Kyle's fingerprints are in AFIS. His prints have been digitally and manually compared to Military Records in the event that he was active in any of the services.

DNA
Mr. Kyle's Primary DNA is in CODIS. I have been told by NB that his MtDNA is located in a private database that they are choosing not to disclose. His Paternal DNA has been processed by the Family Tree DNA database in Houston, TX.

Found by a Burger King dumpster 6am to 6:30am, Richmond Hills, GA.
on 8/31/2004. LE does not believe he was assaulted.

Medical Records Question Answered by Memorial Hospital
I contacted Memorial's CEO today to find out if the fee as reported was still accurate. This is a copy/paste from his response:

"Mr. Kyle and his then identified care giver/guardian were given, in August 2008, 116 pages of pertinent medical records. The material was provided AT NO CHARGE. I do not appreciate the negative characterization of being uncooperative."

I want you guys to know that I did not imply Memorial was being uncooperative-I simply asked if the fee was accurate. So FWIW, Memorial feels STRONGLY that they have given Benjaman all of the relevant data in regards to his stay at Memorial.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A statement from the EMT interviewed for the Dr Phil Show
Snip-"An ambulance was called to the scene. "He was totally naked. He was unresponsive. When I looked at him, he had a lot of sores on him," recalls paramedic Sue Usry."-snip

OK, so here is a partial statement from a first responder regarding the fact that he had sores, no clothing and was unresponsive. She does not say fire ant bites, sunburned, or indicates he had any injuries...so lets see what we can find that documents his injuries.

Transient -
I have the police file because of FOIA. RHPD believes that they found a transient next to the dumpster. That is the position they took in 2004 and that they are taking today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ER Docs notes by christine2448 -
Here is the info on when he was first discovered:
Upon admission, the ER doctor reported him as appearing as a well-developed and well-nourished middle-aged man (not a bum), although he had depressed neurological reflexes (which is not a positive finding) and rapid heartbeat. His liver function was normal, alcohol and drug screen was negative, his condition on admission was considered serious per the ER doctor's report. He was sent up to the Neuro. A CT scan of the head was normal except for several small lacunes (depressions) in the right cerebellar hemisphere. Perhaps a closed-head injury? The attending doctor states in his report that Mr. Kyle's labs are "surprisingly within normal limits" - probably because this is not the case for homeless people by the time they reach middle age - they would usually have bad liver damage by then and very poor nutrition. Mr. Kyle's lab tests alone are indicative of one who had practiced a healthy lifestyle right up to the time of his attack. He presently has very good to excellent health and needs no prescription or over-the-counter drugs to maintain this favorable state of health.


OK gang-we are getting closer...the ER Doc Notes as posted by Christine and quoted by Rose are from an email that NB sent to a member of LE in 2007. I have the original email in my files and here is a copy paste regarding that particular report:



snip

6. What were the circumstances of his mugging and beating ? What police dept took a report ? Who is the investigating officer and how can I get a copy of the report? What are his injuries besides the amnesia?

Answer - He was found naked and unresponsive and covered with fire ant bites beside a dumpster. The dumpster is behind a Burger King on Highway 17, right across from Interstate 95 (exit 87), in Richmond Hill, GA. The Richmond Hill Police Department (phone #912-756-5645) responded to the call and the "miscellaneous incident" report case #04080687 dated 8/31/04 shows Corporal Potts was on the scene (I have already made a copy of this report as well as the EMS report for you - just tell me where to mail it). This is where the vagabond label was first applied to him and has made it virtually impossible for me to get any assistance for this man without the aid of a U.S. Congressman. Lt. Mike Albritton recalls the incident. He said his friend's wife worked the ER at St. Joseph's Hospital then in Savannah where they took Mr. Kyle and he was dubbed "Burger King Doe" because of where they found him. I asked if I could talk to someone who was actually on the scene and he said none of them are working on RHPD now.
He said he is sure that Mr. Kyle is a vagabond. I asked how could he be sure if he wasn't there. He said his friend told him and that his friend also found clothes in the dumpster. I asked if I could speak to him and he said he no longer works for RHPD. I don't think anyone thought to use the clothing as evidence and it is too late now.

Mr. Kyle stayed in St. Joseph's Hospital for approximately two weeks.
Upon admission, the ER doctor reported him as appearing as a well-developed
and well-nourished middle-aged man [not a bum), although he had depressed
neurological reflexes (which is not a positive finding) and rapid heartbeat.
His liver function was normal, alcohol and drug screen was negative, his
condition on admission was considered serious per the ER doctor's report. He
was sent up to the Neuro (7th) floor. A CT scan of the head was normal
except for several small lacunes (depressions) in the right cerebellar
hemisphere. Perhaps a closed-head injury? The attending doctor states in his
report that Mr. Kyle's labs are "surprisingly within normal limits" -
probably because this is not the case for homeless people by the time they
reach middle age - they would usually have bad liver damage by then and very
poor nutrition. Mr. Kyle's lab tests alone are indicative of one who had
practiced a healthy lifestyle right up to the time of his attack. He
presently has very good to excellent health and needs no prescription or
over-the-counter drugs to maintain this favorable state of health.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK-I did some reading on lacunes. I can source everything for you guys, but small lacunes are more likely to be representative (65% chance) of plaque deposits in the brain due to vascular disease that is NOT necessarily pronounced or profound. As opposed to a previous closed head injury. They can also be representative of a stroke if they were thrown from the carotid artery in the neck. The only way to properly dx them is if there is an MRI-the MRI can determine if they are lesions or cysts.

The neurological reports I read also indicated that there are many neurologists that believe they are normal signs of an aging brain...for example, we know that certain forms of dementia are caused by plaque deposits in the brain. Whose to say that if the objects on the CT were actually lacunes they were not the start of what might someday be an age related "forgetfulness" when BK is in his 80's???

So what if they missed the fact that he had a stroke?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the cataracts... This is also part of the LE email I have in my files-it would be interesting to know what Mr. Kyle recalls about his vision. The italics are again mine indicating NB's opinion I believe....
snip
"It is also interesting to note that his cataracts were not diagnosed until
approximately October of 2004. When he came out of his
unconscious/unresponsive state he would have been functionally blind. It is quite possible that he was struck on the head and became unconscious with his eyes open. The sun damage could easily have caused the cataracts.
He had other symptoms brought on from exposure to the elements including tachycardia (rapid heart beat) and elevated blood pressure. He also had apositive Babinski reflex according to the EMS report (an abnormal finding except during the first six months of life) - this would lead one to suspect neurological damage. That is probably why the EMS completely immobilized him before transporting him to the ER."
snip

Click to expand...

Cubby said:

If he was or not, he still obviously needs to be id'd. I'm trying to rack my brain on where this is going and how determining, if I am reading this correctly, whether or not he was a transient for a period of time prior to his being located would benefit the quest to identify him. Am I just brain dead today?

I really mean no disrespect, so I hope this did not offend anyone, I am just confused as to why it appears a higher priority, to determine whether or not he was a transient.

Click to expand...

believe09 said:

I moved your post Rose...

Everything bolded here by me today at this moment indicates comments inserted by Nurse Betty. They are NOT the independent statements of the people who treated Benjaman after he was discovered.

Click to expand...

Roselvr said:

Cubby.. I'm glad I came back and reread your post - I agree; does it matter if he was homeless? To me it does not.

Benjaman has a good work ethic and if finding out who he is will allow him to get a job or to collect social security benefits (because of age) then what happened in the past will not affect my personal opinion of him.

I'm very fond of him; when I originally came here I was willing to do what needed to be done to help him get whatever he needed; such as Xrays, records or whatever but am now not in the position to do so.



quote]

Click to expand...

Thank you Roselvr. Imo, exactly. It makes no difference to me either, and yes, the search efforts could be taken in a different direction if it can be proven with accuracy he was homeless. BUT- with his limited memory, how would we really know?

As it appears, it is opinion only, on whether or not he was or was not a transient. I am not trying to be smart, or criticize any one's thoughts or direction for which to search, but IIRC, when he was first discovered, local PD had already contacted and tried to reach out to those who would be familiar with the homeless community in trying to identify him. Of course I could be confusing this with another case we worked on ages ago...... If this has not been done, or was never done by RHPD, I am more than happy and willing to do whatever to help contact any agencies who may be familiar with the homeless. Do we know whether RHPD or any of the people Mr. Kyle worked with prior to working with NB did this?

Click to expand...