No.
Normal human waste is not something HRD dogs should be hitting on. Unless it contains human remains.
(Oriah now gets sued by the washingtonpost, lol.)
Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**
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No.
Normal human waste is not something HRD dogs should be hitting on. Unless it contains human remains.
(Oriah now gets sued by the washingtonpost, lol.)
andalso
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Yes, makes a lot of sense. Thank you! So, if something like your last scenario happened, and she grabbed the baby from the tub pretty close to immediately after it happened, and then laid the body on the ground in her room next to her bed, then it could have hit only in that one location. Correct?
Mostly correct.
If that scenario were the case, then it would depend on how long the baby was on the ground in that location- and also in what manner it died. Both are variables when it comes to HRD scent.
nursebeeme
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questions and answers/no discussion only peeps 
thank you
thank you
nursebeeme
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bringing over another poster question: how soon after death can the dogs detect death?
Adding this post over here, so as to try and keep the threads clean.
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Decomp scent begins the moment a person dies. But there is a 'window' of confusion (in scent discrimination) when a scent trail turns to decomp. So for example- I go missing. A trailing dog is given my pillowcase as a scent article. That dog is trained to scent on ME (using scent particles). Then it turns out that I'm probably deceased. My other pillowcase is given as a scent article. THAT dog (a different dog) is now scenting off of the same particles, but it has been trained as an HRD dog.
At what time an HRD dog is able to accurately alert on a specific decomp scent depends almost entirely on what kind of training they have had.
One dog may be trained to detect decomp from chemical changes inside the body. One dog may be trained to detect gasses produced during decomp, and released from the body. And just to complicate further lol- one dog may be trained to detect cell(s) that have decomposed to a specific age and are unique to an individual. HTH.
(sarx is gonna slap me.)
<
>
Decomp scent begins the moment a person dies. But there is a 'window' of confusion (in scent discrimination) when a scent trail turns to decomp. So for example- I go missing. A trailing dog is given my pillowcase as a scent article. That dog is trained to scent on ME (using scent particles). Then it turns out that I'm probably deceased. My other pillowcase is given as a scent article. THAT dog (a different dog) is now scenting off of the same particles, but it has been trained as an HRD dog.
At what time an HRD dog is able to accurately alert on a specific decomp scent depends almost entirely on what kind of training they have had.
One dog may be trained to detect decomp from chemical changes inside the body. One dog may be trained to detect gasses produced during decomp, and released from the body. And just to complicate further lol- one dog may be trained to detect cell(s) that have decomposed to a specific age and are unique to an individual. HTH.
(sarx is gonna slap me.)
Wise Old Owl
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Ok question.
Not quite sure how to ask it so I'll put my thoughts.
I'm not understanding just the ONE hit in the bedroom. I find it strange that Lisa would die in that spot, be wrapped in that very same spot and then carried out. Its a big house - I would think someone in a panic (or drunken stupor) would have moved her at least once - no?
So, does LE have to list ALL the hits the dog gets or would just this one be enough to get that warrant. I think there were other hits but LE only needed that one - and in the master bedroom where DB and JI were not giving consent to search - to get the warrant. If they do have other hits - do they have to report those? Or can those be kept under wraps and they only used what they needed to get the warrant?
Oh my, I think I'm rambling now..................
Not quite sure how to ask it so I'll put my thoughts.
I'm not understanding just the ONE hit in the bedroom. I find it strange that Lisa would die in that spot, be wrapped in that very same spot and then carried out. Its a big house - I would think someone in a panic (or drunken stupor) would have moved her at least once - no?
So, does LE have to list ALL the hits the dog gets or would just this one be enough to get that warrant. I think there were other hits but LE only needed that one - and in the master bedroom where DB and JI were not giving consent to search - to get the warrant. If they do have other hits - do they have to report those? Or can those be kept under wraps and they only used what they needed to get the warrant?
Oh my, I think I'm rambling now..................
BBM:
Ok- lemme try and explain, lol.
LE should have a log of all alerts, for any and all types of dogs used. (As should SAR.)
So for example-and this is completely hypothetical- just want to help explain- an HRD dog may have alerted in one location in a residence, and a narc dog alerted in another in the same residence. Then a dog trained in accelerants may have alerted in a different place in a residence entirely... or it may have confirmed an accelerant alert at the same location as an HRD hit, or a narc hit.
Make sense? It's kind of one huge equation.
So as for what would be needed to obtain a SW based on dog alerts- well it could be any and/or all of the above. It would also depend upon the history of the dogs, and the judges interpretation and understanding of the dogs used.
Does that help? Or have I totally confused, lol?
ETA: LE would not have to disclose their entire log to get a SW. But it would typically be in the best interest of case preservation to do so.
Wise Old Owl
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Thankx Oriah - it was your ETA that kinda cleared up what I was asking. So, if there were other hits - in your own opinion, LE would have discolsed those in the SW? Or would they have just "orally" told the judge in chambers when requesting this warrant that there were "other hits" without having to actually disclose them in the warrant?
In my opinion, they would have orally communicated any alerts to a judge when seeking a SW for something specific- except for whatever singular alert(s) were most founded; then they would have produced evidence (logs) to those specific alerts. And then they would have told the judge that they may have many more that may end up correlating. Ongoing investigation, and analysis pending.
That's what I would do, anyway.
Question related to the BBM.
In order to better clarify the talk of a possible hit on a previous death in the home.
When the HRD dog(s) were sent in to the Irwin home in this case, would they have been dogs who are trained and/or only looking for "recent" decomp scent? If so, I guess what I'm asking is along the lines of what kind of time paremeters are we talking about,. old scent versus new? If a dog is trained to only hit on 'recent' decomp, what constitutes recent? How old a scent leftover from a previous death constitutes 'old'?
Gosh I hope you know what I'm trying to ask, lol..I'm struggling to put it into words. :crazy:
I think I understand what you are asking....
I think in Lisa's case (because it was/is assumed) that she was in the residence shortly before going missing- HRD dog(s) would have been of the more 'recent HRD' trained sort. Does that help?
I think in Lisa's case (because it was/is assumed) that she was in the residence shortly before going missing- HRD dog(s) would have been of the more 'recent HRD' trained sort. Does that help?
It does help, in part, thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions. The other part of my question is what time frame would be considered "recent"? If you train an HRD dog to hit on recent decomp scent...does that mean within 1 week, 1 month, 1 year?
tia..and again, appreciation to all of you who help us laypersons to better understand this complicated issue.
That kind of depends on what dogs were called in and for what purpose, believe it or not. If the FBI called in specific dogs, then they were likely working off of a specific case law basis; in anticipation or concern of a specific probable outcome. So they likely would have known the specific training of the dogs used. I wouldn't want to speak for the trainers/handlers however- because I'm not sure what that might have been, lol. Sorry- that sounds hugely confusing! Does that help at all?
It does help, again in part
I think what I hear you saying is that what constitutes "recent", in terms of dog training, is a variable?
I will continue to do some research as I have time to try to understand this complex aspect of HRD dogs...to try to get a better handle on the difference between dogs who just hit on decomp..and dogs who might be trained to hit on decomp of a specific age.
thank you again!
It does help, again in part
I think what I hear you saying is that what constitutes "recent", in terms of dog training, is a variable?
I will continue to do some research as I have time to try to understand this complex aspect of HRD dogs...to try to get a better handle on the difference between dogs who just hit on decomp..and dogs who might be trained to hit on decomp of a specific age.
thank you again!
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Geralyn. I'm tryin', I swear!
You are correct about the difference between dogs who are trained to alert on aged remains vs non-aged remains. It is a very complex topic- one with a whole lot of value, imvho- but also one with a lot of contention among SAR dog trainers and handlers. Which equals- contention in court.
Personally, I am also a proponent of DNA scent training- and all of it is so controversial.... but anyway- by trying to explain that if the FBI called in specific dogs, then they likely knew what the dog(s) specialized in. That gives us a good idea of what they were looking for. It doesn't mean the dog(s) are infallible- no one is- but it does give us an idea as to what type of dog had the highest probability of success in alerting. Does that make sense?
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Can I ask a question about tracking dogs here? If you don't know, that's ok.
If you are giving a (non-HRD) dog a scent to track from their own home- do they automatically pick up on the most recent track? Assuming the individual came and went many times, would a live scent tracking dog be reliable from the person's own home?
If you are giving a (non-HRD) dog a scent to track from their own home- do they automatically pick up on the most recent track? Assuming the individual came and went many times, would a live scent tracking dog be reliable from the person's own home?
tiredblondy
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:seeya:
I wanted to include this link and these excerpts. Wonderful information and answers some questions our experts have answered too.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out of a line-up of six new carpet squares the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.
Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
-another excerpt-
In one study involving four dogs and their handlers, Jacobi says the dogs were able to detect remains at all stages of decomposition. Performance varied between dogs, but some could locate skeletonised remains buried in an area of 300ft by 150ft. "The few single human vertebrae I used in the study were well over 25 years old, and dry bone," Jacobi says. "This made the discovery of one of these vertebrae, which we buried in dense woods 2ft deep, by a cadaver dog pretty remarkable."
Much other fascinating information covered in the article even some of the stuff Dr. Vass talked about.
I wanted to include this link and these excerpts. Wonderful information and answers some questions our experts have answered too.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html
One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out of a line-up of six new carpet squares the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.
Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
-another excerpt-
In one study involving four dogs and their handlers, Jacobi says the dogs were able to detect remains at all stages of decomposition. Performance varied between dogs, but some could locate skeletonised remains buried in an area of 300ft by 150ft. "The few single human vertebrae I used in the study were well over 25 years old, and dry bone," Jacobi says. "This made the discovery of one of these vertebrae, which we buried in dense woods 2ft deep, by a cadaver dog pretty remarkable."
Much other fascinating information covered in the article even some of the stuff Dr. Vass talked about.
Well it was intended as an HRD dog thread- but they are often combined- so I'll do my best.
Yes. If you are giving a properly trained tracking or trailing dog a scent article of an individual; and the scent has been deposited along a path, say- back and forth from a vehicle to a residence- you should see them back tracking like crazy. They are going from newest (freshest) to oldest scent. They should be following the 'newest' scent. This is scent deposit, though. Deposited ON something. Not air scent (which are particles in the air.)
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When bringing in another dog for verification do they just bring in a new dog/handler or is it through the same company/outfitter (not sure of terminology here) or depends on what is available? As in how unassociated are the dogs?
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