17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

Ninety5rpm · Apr 25, 2012

LynnM said:
I don't think it's either. I think Zimmerman has self esteem issues and anger issues. He wants to be involved in law enforcement. He took a police academy course for civilians, he takes criminal justice courses, he volunteered for neighborhood watch and he armed himself. I think he wanted to be a hero and show the police that he'd be a good candidate for the police force. I think he wanted to make his family and friends proud of him. (after all he held a graduation party for his family in December when he still had coursework to do), He was absolutely sure that Trayvon was a criminal; it never even crossed his mind that it could be otherwise, hence the frustrated "These expletive-deleteds always get away." And because of that he never told Trayvon that he was a Neighborhood Watch volunteer and asked him civilly if he lived in the neighborhood.

I think he was determined to hold this (in his mind) young criminal for the police and when Trayvon wouldn't cooperate a struggle ensued. I think he got angry when he couldn't easily get the better of Trayvon and he shot him. I don't think he was in fear of his life, I think he was just plain furious.

I don't think Zimmerman is a monster, I don't think he's diabolical. But I do think he's deeply flawed and troubled and there was a perfect storm of all his issues that night.

I'll admit that's a possible scenario, but it is riddled with so much speculation (in bold) that it makes it highly unlikely to be accurate.

LolaMoon08 · Apr 25, 2012

cityslick said:
Didn't I read a story that GZ did have two incidents where he was robbed or attacked? Maybe that had something to do with it too?

I've never heard that so I couldn't tell you? It would be interesting if true though?

MOO

badme102 · Apr 25, 2012

Phoenixfla said:
The part I find interesting in that call is that he indicated he would meet the officer at his truck, further evidence he did not go too far from his truck.

Emeralgem said:
Excuse me, but that is NOT the call in it's entirety.. GZ changed his mind before he hung up with dispatch,.. He told the dispatcher to tell the police to call him when they got there and he would tell them where he was at... JJMHO

Thank you.

To me, this is irrefutable proof that GZ was going on the "HUNT" for Trayvon, and when LE called him for his location, he could present them his "catch".

No doubt in my mind, whatsoever. Not one iota. It's common sense and logic.

cityslick · Apr 25, 2012

HiHater said:
Okay, based on any second hand account---the one from his father, the one from his brother, the portion of the bond hearing---did you hear anybody ever say or insinuate that Trayvon took the gun out first? Would this even be a 2nd degree murder charge if Trayvon took the gun out first?

Didn't GZ also say that he can't remember how the gun came out? For the record, I don't think he's going to get convicted on 2nd degree, manslaughter perhaps (probably).

HiHater · Apr 25, 2012

cityslick said:
Didn't GZ also say that he can't remember how the gun came out? For the record, I don't think he's going to get convicted on 2nd degree, manslaughter perhaps (probably).

I'm not sure. I do know that I have never read or heard that Trayvon pulled the gun out first...

I don't personally care what he's convicted of, or whether or not he serves any additional time in jail. I just hope that he ends up with a felony record that stops him from possessing a firearm or serving on any police force. That's my honest take on it...

badme102 · Apr 25, 2012

Ninety5rpm said:
I'll admit that's a possible scenario, but it is riddled with so much speculation (in bold) that it makes it highly unlikely to be accurate.

So I guess that means all of your posts would fall under the same, since they are nothing but speculation as well? Not being snarky, just trying to understand your statement.

Zak · Apr 25, 2012

Sensei said:
that would be to presume a logical thought process when it is not likely that there was a logical thought process going on to begin with from someone who thought a kid walking down the street was suspicious...and if he was thinking that logically then WHY did he even shoot, since he said his head was off the concrete and he knew PD was on their way and in fact arrived within a minute of the gunshot.

Possibly because it was at this point that Trayvon was trying to get his gun. Look, I don't know all the answers about what happened that night. I'm just not willing to convict GZ until all of the evidence is out. IMO GZ is innocent until proven guilty. No matter how this plays out, Trayvon is dead. I feel so very sorry for Trayvon and his family, it is absolutely heartbreaking.

Ninety5rpm · Apr 25, 2012

badme102 said:
Thank you.

To me, this is irrefutable proof that GZ was going on the "HUNT" for Trayvon, and when LE called him for his location, he could present them his "catch".

No doubt in my mind, whatsoever. Not one iota. It's common sense and logic.

It's normal and natural for a neighborhood watch person in a gated community to follow an unrecognized-and-therefore-suspicious person. It's reasonable for him to tell the police to call him since he had no idea where he would be since he was following someone else.

<modsnip>

lauriej · Apr 25, 2012

cityslick said:
Didn't I read a story that GZ did have two incidents where he was robbed or attacked? Maybe that had something to do with it too?

--this article was posted last night.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

WFTV also learned that Zimmerman has been the victim of violence at least twice in the past.

He was working security for a party at an Altamonte Springs home in 2005 and residents said someone broke his jaw when he tried to break up a fight.

That same year, he was robbed at gunpoint at a 7-Eleven after eating dinner at a nearby Chili's restaurant.

HiHater · Apr 25, 2012

Ninety5rpm said:
It's normal and natural for a neighborhood watch person in a gated community to follow an unrecognized-and-therefore-suspicious person. It's reasonable for him to tell the police to call him since he had no idea where he would be since he was following someone else.

To refer to following someone as going on the "HUNT" is just emotional bating.

I would argue that's it's neither normal nor natural. Watch person. Watch is the operative word. IMO

Donjeta · Apr 25, 2012

cityslick said:
Didn't I read a story that GZ did have two incidents where he was robbed or attacked? Maybe that had something to do with it too?

Twice? I hadn't heard that. Very interesting.
Could the battery on LE thing and the domestic incident be a factor too? If he thought it was all the LE officer's and the girlfriend's fault for not identifying himself and for doing whatever he thought she did to deserve it, and he had got into trouble through no fault of his own.

badme102 · Apr 25, 2012

Ninety5rpm said:
It's normal and natural for a neighborhood watch person in a gated community to follow an unrecognized-and-therefore-suspicious person. It's reasonable for him to tell the police to call him since he had no idea where he would be since he was following someone else.

<modsnip>

You're wrong and anyone doing so should NEVER be in NW. Ever.
My bold and underline
Here's the National Neighborhood Watch website:

http://www.nnwi.org/

From the link:

Our Participants Handbook states, "Always remember that your responsibility is to report crime. Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest. The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police/sheriff."

Neighborhood Watch participants act as additional eyes and ears for law enforcement.
They do not take the law into their own hands.

Donjeta · Apr 25, 2012

Ninety5rpm said:
It's normal and natural for a neighborhood watch person in a gated community to follow an unrecognized-and-therefore-suspicious person. It's reasonable for him to tell the police to call him since he had no idea where he would be since he was following someone else.

<modsnip>

It's odd that it's not named Neighborhood Follow.

MaryAnn · Apr 25, 2012

lauriej said:
--this article was posted last night.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

WFTV also learned that Zimmerman has been the victim of violence at least twice in the past.

He was working security for a party at an Altamonte Springs home in 2005 and residents said someone broke his jaw when he tried to break up a fight.

That same year, he was robbed at gunpoint at a 7-Eleven after eating dinner at a nearby Chili's restaurant.

I think if you are working as security you have to figure that something will happen eventually. Especially if booz is involved.

I was held up at a Kmart one Xmas by a Man with a Knife. Fortunately a Security Guard saw him and came to my rescue. I don't feel the need to become a vigalante.

Sensei · Apr 25, 2012

Zak said:
Possibly because it was at this point that Trayvon was trying to get his gun. Look, I don't know all the answers about what happened that night. I'm just not willing to convict GZ until all of the evidence is out. IMO GZ is innocent until proven guilty. No matter how this plays out, Trayvon is dead. I feel so very sorry for Trayvon and his family, it is absolutely heartbreaking.

On that we are agreed. I am not willing to convict anyone for anything until I have heard what actual evidence there is but there are so many red flags in this case that the one entity that I am willing to outright convict and villify at this point is Sanford PD. This case would not be so FUBAR if they had simply expended some effort to actually investigate this incident and done it by the book. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Phoenixfla · Apr 25, 2012

Sensei said:
I will just say that if you actually hit someone hard enough to break the cartiledge in their nose (which is actually harder than breaking a bone since cartiledge has more give to it) you are going to do damage to your own hand, possibly break it and probably split the skin or scape the skin on your knuckles

as far as we know and the funeral director did in fact look so that he could be sure there was nothing to be seen when he arranged the body for viewing, as far as we know Trayvon had NO injuries aside from the gunshot wound.

Then how did GZs nose get broken?

Occam's razor - other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one.

Ninety5rpm · Apr 25, 2012

badme102 said:
So I guess that means all of your posts would fall under the same, since they are nothing but speculation as well? Not being snarky, just trying to understand your statement.

Your scenario was not "nothing but speculation" (I didn't bold every statement), and neither were mine.

If I describe a scenario that hinges on a series of speculations, then, yes, of course, it too is probably pretty unlikely to be accurate. How unlikely depends on how many speculations there are, and the likelihood of each being true.

For example, if it has three speculations and each is 50% likely to be correct, then the entire scenario has a 12.5% chance (.50 *. 50 * .50) of being accurate. If each of three speculations is only 25% likely, then the whole scenario has only a 1.5% chance (.25 * .25 * .25, or .25 ^ 3) of being correct.

Your scenario hinged on a dozen speculations. Even if each has a generous 75% chance of being correct, the chance of the entire scenario being true is .75 ^ 12 = .031 or 3.1%. That's why I said it's highly unlikely.

LynnM · Apr 25, 2012

Ninety5rpm said:
Your scenario was not "nothing but speculation" (I didn't bold every statement), and neither were mine.

If I describe a scenario that hinges on a series of speculations, then, yes, of course, it too is probably pretty unlikely to be accurate. How unlikely depends on how many speculations there are, and the likelihood of each being true.

For example, if it has three speculations and each is 50% likely to be correct, then the entire scenario has a 12.5% chance (.50 *. 50 * .50) of being accurate. If each of three speculations is only 25% likely, then the whole scenario has only a 1.5% chance (.25 * .25 * .25, or .25 ^ 3) of being correct.

Your scenario hinged on a dozen speculations. Even if each has a generous 75% chance of being correct, the chance of the entire scenario being true is .75 ^ 12 = .031 or 3.1%. That's why I said it's highly unlikely.

That is only true if all of the speculations are unrelated to each other. That isn't the case here.

Ninety5rpm · Apr 25, 2012

badme102 said:
<snip>
http://www.nnwi.org/

From the link:

Our Participants Handbook states, "Always remember that your responsibility is to report crime. Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest. The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police/sheriff."

Neighborhood Watch participants act as additional eyes and ears for law enforcement.
They do not take the law into their own hands.

Huh? Following is not apprehending.

Are you saying that merely following someone is "taking a risk to prevent a crime"?

Sheesh. Why would following someone within your own community be taking a risk? Because they might get pissed off and assault you?

Zak · Apr 25, 2012

HiHater said:
I would argue that's it's neither normal nor natural. Watch person. Watch is the operative word. IMO

ITA that watch is the operative word and am still waiting for evidence that GZ was not just doing that. When dispatch told him that he didn't need to follow Trayvon it is possible that he stopped and just stood where he was finishing the call, while observing or watching to see if he could see where Trayvon went without following.

17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

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