I love reading your posts. I've been following this case for way too long and I continue to learn new things from you and the other great posters here. I think I saw in one of your other posts that you believe the feces was tested..I also believe that. I can't decide if Kolar mentioning that they were believed to be Burkes pajama bottoms should sway my opinion one way or another. Could he be pointing towards that? Sure. Was he? Who knows.
Feces :/
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I love reading your posts. I've been following this case for way too long and I continue to learn new things from you and the other great posters here. I think I saw in one of your other posts that you believe the feces was tested..I also believe that. I can't decide if Kolar mentioning that they were believed to be Burkes pajama bottoms should sway my opinion one way or another. Could he be pointing towards that? Sure. Was he? Who knows.
borndem
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Hmmmm, gramcracker -- I have not read all the transcripts yet -- huff-puff, pant-pant, it's a lot of reading! -- and I didn't know about no hangers for the tp, etc. Kids are usually in a hurry to get back to whatever they were doing, so they don't care for bathroom time -- and it sounds like the only one who seemed to care about soiled underwear & walls was the housekeeper -- so if BR or JB didn't see or couldn't reach the tp, then to heck with it. Just pulled up their underpants and back to what they were doing... Good point you make there... Interesting, isn't it?! <smh>
gramcracker
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does anyone remember the chocolate box/pajama bottom feces not being tested for DNA? I searched the kindle edition of Kolar's book every way I can think of: no results. did he say that (using the word "unfortunately") during an interview with Tricia/Websleuths radio? because it sure rings a bell that my reaction was are you kidding me?
t wasn't in his book, at least not that I recall. I don't think it was tested. I also read that police took samples of the contents of an unflushed toilet in the basement, but never read whether they tested it or the results.
One thing about that chocolate box...even a 3-year old knows what "poop" smells like. There is no way a chid of 6 would unknowingly eat candy smeared with feces. I have not seen it mentioned where the pajama bottoms and candy box were in proximity to each other. If the feces was in the pajama bottoms and they were thrown on top of the candy box, then the contamination of the candy was actually accidental. And if the pajama bottoms belonged to BR it wouldn't stop JB from putting them on if she had wet her own, and then soiling HIS. If she slept in his room Christmas Eve and woke up wet, she may have pulled on a pair of his rather than go down the hall at night to her own room.
I have to add that this was a large house- kids do NOT like to get up to go to the bathroom at night, especially if the house is dark and they have a distance to go. I'd think a lot of JB's wetting issues at night were because she was scared to get out of bed to go- I don't care how close the bathroom was. Their parents slept on another floor entirely- something I would never have done with kids that young. I don't blame her for seeking refuge in her brother's room sometimes.
txsvicki
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I wonder if Patsy was questioned at length about the candy box and the sweat pants. If we only know a small amount of the total evidence then maybe we've only seen partial transcripts of questioning?
Arnie M
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I read somewhere that on christmas eve (24th) JBR was allowed to sleep in BR's room so they could wake each other up early to open presents together
..... what if JBR also was in BR's room on the evening of the 25th and accidently pooped and pee'd in his bed ..... that would sure send most young boys into a rage
Maybe that is where the head bash originated and the rest was a staged coverup by the parents
Parents who did not want the world to know about the imperfections of their little pageant queen and her brother.
ie: .... NEWSPAPER HEADLINES ..... beauty queen soils brother's bed and he murders her
This is certainly macabre speculation , and I do not enjoy posting it .... but lets face it .... something quite unusual must have happened in that home to cause the whole situation .
Even if that is not exactly what happened , the whole Ramsey case has the aroma of being both accidental and embarrassing ..... thus the coverup .... it would make sense to me anyway.
..... what if JBR also was in BR's room on the evening of the 25th and accidently pooped and pee'd in his bed ..... that would sure send most young boys into a rage
Maybe that is where the head bash originated and the rest was a staged coverup by the parents
Parents who did not want the world to know about the imperfections of their little pageant queen and her brother.
ie: .... NEWSPAPER HEADLINES ..... beauty queen soils brother's bed and he murders her
This is certainly macabre speculation , and I do not enjoy posting it .... but lets face it .... something quite unusual must have happened in that home to cause the whole situation .
Even if that is not exactly what happened , the whole Ramsey case has the aroma of being both accidental and embarrassing ..... thus the coverup .... it would make sense to me anyway.
Please educate me, as I have not had time to read everything on this case since I recently started to really pay attention to it...
Have we ever seen extensive photographs of BR's bedroom? Arnie M's post made me think of it. We know all about JB's sheets and chocolates and folded down blankets, but what about BR's room from that night/morning?
Have we ever seen extensive photographs of BR's bedroom? Arnie M's post made me think of it. We know all about JB's sheets and chocolates and folded down blankets, but what about BR's room from that night/morning?
Arnie M
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txsvicki
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I'm still stuck on the questionairre that Patsy filled out for the doctor. One question not on it, but is always on school full evaluations is whether or not the older child is frequently responsible for watching younger ones. Not much has been said, but I'm wondering if Burke had to help JonBenet wipe, clean herself, fix lunch, watch her outside, get her to go to bed, get her blanket from the dryer, etc. In some of his interviews, he was so touchy about wetting or soiling and seemed very interested in food and eating. I think they were neglected and ignored when no one was around.
prima.facie
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because he clearly had some mental issues going on. tampering is much more a symptom of mental issues than just stealing it like a normal kid might do.
otg
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Not sure if it's the same one, expat. Hard to believe, but there are 5 Geraldine Vodicka's in Colorado:
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Geraldine-Vodicka/Colorado
otg
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I don't know how many people remember, but there was a woman named Holly Smith who was the lead child abuse investigator for the County of Boulder. She was called in early to help with the investigation into JonBenet's death. She later (2002) wrote a book about her experiences in Boulder which was supposed to include a chapter on what she found in the Ramsey investigation. Here it is (on a separate line because of how Amazon links automatically create this image):
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1583913548/"]Fire of the Five Hearts: A Memoir of Treating Incest: Holly A. Smith, Dr. Charles R. Figley: 9781583913543: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cL42yDejL.@@AMEPARAM@@51cL42yDejL[/ame]
(If you at least read the Introduction available for preview, you'll understand the significance Smith sees in a girl's "panty drawer".)
But Smith was told she couldn't use any information or make any reference to JonBenet (IIRC) because it was still an open and active investigation. So the chapter on that was removed before final publication. This is all as I remember the details -- but someone may remember other details or information I might have left out.
But she did do an interview with Julie Hayden in 2006, revealing some details of what she found. It's interesting now to read it again in light of what we've found out from James Kolar. (Notice the article's placement of information about the candy just before the comment about her panty drawer.) I couldn't find the article online any longer, but I just happen to have it saved. Here it is:
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/...n=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1583913548/"]Fire of the Five Hearts: A Memoir of Treating Incest: Holly A. Smith, Dr. Charles R. Figley: 9781583913543: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cL42yDejL.@@AMEPARAM@@51cL42yDejL[/ame]
(If you at least read the Introduction available for preview, you'll understand the significance Smith sees in a girl's "panty drawer".)
But Smith was told she couldn't use any information or make any reference to JonBenet (IIRC) because it was still an open and active investigation. So the chapter on that was removed before final publication. This is all as I remember the details -- but someone may remember other details or information I might have left out.
But she did do an interview with Julie Hayden in 2006, revealing some details of what she found. It's interesting now to read it again in light of what we've found out from James Kolar. (Notice the article's placement of information about the candy just before the comment about her panty drawer.) I couldn't find the article online any longer, but I just happen to have it saved. Here it is:
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/...n=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
JonBenet Investigator Talks Exclusively to Fox 31 News
Created: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:29 PM MST
JonBenet Ramsey
DENVER --
The tenth anniversary of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey is rapidly approaching. The whirlwind surrounding the arrest and release of John Mark Karr shows it's a mystery that continues to capture the nations attention.
Fox 31 News and Investigative Reporter Julie Hayden have received new information as one of the investigators talks for the first time about her experiences with the case.
Holly Smith recently wrote a book about her 20 years with the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team. She left out the chapter about the Ramsey case, but is now revealing her part of the investigation exclusively to us.
A Memory Forever Engrained
Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated.
Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy."
It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."
She started, as always, with a visit to the childs bedroom.
"That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains.
With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenets elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a fell for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom.
She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor."
One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenets secret stash of candy.
She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenets dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.
"There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.
JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.
"It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.
Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area."
The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that.
It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all.
Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything. "There was a lot of territoriality around the case, she says.
Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it.
"No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned, she says.
She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse.
Says Smith, "Its just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think. The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time."
Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way.
She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child."
In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.
A lawyer for the Ramsey family did not return our phone calls. But the Ramseys have always denied that JonBenet suffered any kind of prior abuse and point out her pediatrician never saw anything indicating abuse, either.
Created: Monday, 13 Nov 2006, 9:29 PM MST
JonBenet Ramsey
DENVER --
The tenth anniversary of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey is rapidly approaching. The whirlwind surrounding the arrest and release of John Mark Karr shows it's a mystery that continues to capture the nations attention.
Fox 31 News and Investigative Reporter Julie Hayden have received new information as one of the investigators talks for the first time about her experiences with the case.
Holly Smith recently wrote a book about her 20 years with the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team. She left out the chapter about the Ramsey case, but is now revealing her part of the investigation exclusively to us.
A Memory Forever Engrained
Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated.
Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy."
It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."
She started, as always, with a visit to the childs bedroom.
"That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains.
With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenets elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a fell for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom.
She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor."
One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenets secret stash of candy.
She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenets dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.
"There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.
JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.
"It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.
Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area."
The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that.
It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all.
Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything. "There was a lot of territoriality around the case, she says.
Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it.
"No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned, she says.
She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse.
Says Smith, "Its just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think. The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time."
Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way.
She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child."
In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.
A lawyer for the Ramsey family did not return our phone calls. But the Ramseys have always denied that JonBenet suffered any kind of prior abuse and point out her pediatrician never saw anything indicating abuse, either.
borndem
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bbm
Arnie M -- It's the only thing thing that does make sense, IMO.
That's why BR hurting her, to me, is the most logical -- no telling what he told his parents about what caused the head bash or how it happened ("We were playing and she just fell," or "I was in my room taking practice swings with my baseball bat & she just walked in and the bat smacked her in the head," etc.), but the adult R's were prolly beyond caring by then -- it was done, and the elder R's saw that JB was not gonna survive such a blow. And I'm not sure whose hands used the ligature or just his/her hand to asphyxiate her, but it doesn't really matter, does it? I'll say again, they had to protect their only living and viable child, and they had to keep up appearances. WYSIWYG just wouldn't "do." JMHO
FreeSafety36
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I have a question. I don't mean to derail the thread or get it off-topic, but I'm going to post it here because the kids' beds have already been brought up in the thread.
Does anyone have any idea why, in the crime scene photos, Burke's bed was made?
We know Burke stayed in bed until after 7 AM. JR or PR, I can't remember which, claimed they woke BR up, told him JB was missing and he was going to FW's and helped him dress. It seemed a bit odd to me when I read that statement that a parent would need to help an almost 10-year-old boy dress, but it was even more odd that as I looked at the crime scene photo of BR's bedroom, Burke's bed was made.
A made bed- particularly on that morning- seems inconsistent with what we've heard about both Burke and Patsy, neither of whom were tidy, by the accounts we have. If it were John who went up, he doesn't strike me as someone who'd concern himself with making his son's bed.
I considered a friend, trying to be helpful, or even trying to just do something to feel useful, could have made the bed; but if that were the case, it seems they would also have made JB's bed, which wasn't made in the crime scene photo. I also considered maybe a friend who did this realized JB's bed could contain evidence...but a friend with such clear thinking would also consider that Burke's bed could also contain evidence.
Anyway...just a piece of evidence that piqued my curiosity. Anyone have any idea why?
Does anyone have any idea why, in the crime scene photos, Burke's bed was made?
We know Burke stayed in bed until after 7 AM. JR or PR, I can't remember which, claimed they woke BR up, told him JB was missing and he was going to FW's and helped him dress. It seemed a bit odd to me when I read that statement that a parent would need to help an almost 10-year-old boy dress, but it was even more odd that as I looked at the crime scene photo of BR's bedroom, Burke's bed was made.
A made bed- particularly on that morning- seems inconsistent with what we've heard about both Burke and Patsy, neither of whom were tidy, by the accounts we have. If it were John who went up, he doesn't strike me as someone who'd concern himself with making his son's bed.
I considered a friend, trying to be helpful, or even trying to just do something to feel useful, could have made the bed; but if that were the case, it seems they would also have made JB's bed, which wasn't made in the crime scene photo. I also considered maybe a friend who did this realized JB's bed could contain evidence...but a friend with such clear thinking would also consider that Burke's bed could also contain evidence.
Anyway...just a piece of evidence that piqued my curiosity. Anyone have any idea why?
pageantmom
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Fleet made Burke's bed while they were trying to keep occupied waiting.
borndem
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b
I remember the neatly-made bed, too, FreeSafety... Could it have been either JR or PR wanting to make BR look like a neat and obedient child? If so, IMO, it would point even more to BR being involved in this thing.
Or it could simply be that one of the elder R's had nervous energy and it was a constructive thing to do. Or perhaps to make it look like they were not in a big rush to get BR out of the house.
Or 25 more reasons....
But it is odd and I did wonder about it -- it seemed quite incongruous with everything else going on...
I remember the neatly-made bed, too, FreeSafety... Could it have been either JR or PR wanting to make BR look like a neat and obedient child? If so, IMO, it would point even more to BR being involved in this thing.
Or it could simply be that one of the elder R's had nervous energy and it was a constructive thing to do. Or perhaps to make it look like they were not in a big rush to get BR out of the house.
Or 25 more reasons....
But it is odd and I did wonder about it -- it seemed quite incongruous with everything else going on...
Meara
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FWIW, I've read on the boards that Fleet White was a person who tidied things and was known to make the childrens' beds and, so, may have made Burke's bed that morning out of habit, or perhaps for need of something to do. If at that time he had no reason to believe anything but that JBR had been kidnaped, he probably would not have considered Burke's bed a source of evidence. Whether this view is accepted opinion or is actually documented somewhere I can't say.
ETA: Hi pageantmom ~ I didn't see your post : )
ETA: Hi pageantmom ~ I didn't see your post : )
icedtea4me
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Just because Kolar said the box of candy in JonBenet's room was smeared with feces does not necessarily mean it was from the amount of a 24 cubic cm stool. The amount could have just as well have been a minute 1 cubic mm. I wonder why he wasn't more specific.
FreeSafety36
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stained underwear, but especially since we're talking about children, isn't it very possible that the kids simply didn't wipe themselves well?
I know that JB was known to call for adults to wipe her...at 6 years old, could that be because Patsy had told her she needed help (due to all her soiled panties)?
I'm not trying to make excuses, and poor wiping explains neither the fecal smearing BR was known to do, nor the soiled box of chocolates...just trying to make sure I understand what we're talking about here with the underwear.
I know that JB was known to call for adults to wipe her...at 6 years old, could that be because Patsy had told her she needed help (due to all her soiled panties)?
I'm not trying to make excuses, and poor wiping explains neither the fecal smearing BR was known to do, nor the soiled box of chocolates...just trying to make sure I understand what we're talking about here with the underwear.