IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

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VeryVeritas said:
As we have discussed before the motive may not have been what actually killed her but rather their (POI's) perception of what may have killed her and certainly how it may have looked / played out with authorities. More likely a decision in a panicked situation than a rational discourse.

1) We know she was drinking (seems unlikely to me that she drank enough to have fatal alcohol poisoning) but was that enough?
2) The "black eyes" that JR attests to seeing (he didn't know there was witnesses and camera evidence of falls)
3) It's not plausible to me that money would be a factor. She could have paid a drug debt... so that's out for me.
4) Sex - possible... date rape and even accidental death would not look good esp with black eyes.
5) Drugs - very likely involved, a lot harder to avoid culpability.
6) Jealously? No evidence of that... depending on whom you have in mind there doesn't seem to be an opportunity for that which fits within the known facts and MB/JR stories (and even ferreting out the lies and conflicts in their stories, still doesn't fit).

A friend that has been to your house partying DIES pretty much at your doorstep and has black eyes. Motive? Likely Primary motive is CYA!
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this, but I'd add that if CR/JR/MB had any involvement in more nefarious things (dealing, serious drug problems, etc) they might have wanted to avoid LE digging into their lives as much as possible. While they've ended up being POIs, I wonder if in some way thats preferable to them than having LE show up at their apartment and search it/question them that specific night. If they were dealing, not calling 911/hiding Lauren would possibly have given them enough time to dispose of anything they did not want to have found and to get the word out that they might be dealing with LE soon and for everyone (suppliers, clients, etc) to act accordingly.
I know thats a big leap and not a huge possibility, but I could potentially see it happening, imo
 
Bingo Holly18

Not far fetched whatsoever. Their well reported long time drug use, and/or the drug dealing, the implications, the LE/drug force investigations and most importantly their affiliated cartel took precedence over every possible reason they might have thought of for reporting Laurens condition or death. They, their families and their lawyers for sure had and have only there own well beings in mind. It all borders narcissistic and sociopathic behavior.
Also, I like Holly18's comment about using the time frame to get rid of incriminating goods in their apartments. Did they call DR to warn him? Interesting that Hadar knew about the late night call and claimed it was Lauren making the call looking for her phone. VERY interesting statement by Hadar.
 
carlarae341 said:
Bingo Holly18

Not far fetched whatsoever. Their well reported long time drug use, and/or the drug dealing, the implications, the LE/drug force investigations and most importantly their affiliated cartel took precedence over every possible reason they might have thought of for reporting Laurens condition or death. They, their families and their lawyers for sure had and have only there own well beings in mind. It all borders narcissistic and sociopathic behavior.
Also, I like Holly18's comment about using the time frame to get rid of incriminating goods in their apartments. Did they call DR to warn him? Interesting that Hadar knew about the late night call and claimed it was Lauren making the call looking for her phone. VERY interesting statement by Hadar.
Click to expand...

gee-- looking for her phone? do you have a link because that is indeed very interesting. So, if true, Lauren thought David Rohn had her phone. Maybe he held it for her on the way to Jay's, and then remember, he left and went right back to SW because they have him on camera. Maybe he gave it to someone (ZC or roommates) who said they were heading up that way but they didn't,
or even maybe they went to Kilroys and called Lauren and said they had her phone there, that's why they went back to Kilroy's and by the time Lauren got there, the person who had the phone had left. So Lauren and CR returned to SW,
knocked on the door to the apt down the hall where the girls had been earlier (David Rohn's apt?), asked about phone, CR got punched, but the girls with her phone had already left and went back to 10th and C, hence CR and LS's stop there, by that time, they could have been playing keep-it-away from Lauren to get her in trouble with JW, never thinking of the consequences. Or maybe they gave it to Jesse, he was taking it up to JR's to confront Lauren and saw her leaving. Or, he was meant to catch up with her as she stumbled home, found her, argued with her and ended up slamming her head (accidentally?) against the wall or pushes her and she falls and hits her head. Then, he could place her by the dumpster, run up to JR's and say he found her dead, blame them for an od, but plan the story with him, excluding both him and CR (but insert head smack on concrete at an earlier time on the way to the alley with CR, no worries, amnesia takes care of that) and everyone alibis everyone else. In this scenario, JR thinks he killed Lauren by letting her leave, thus allowing JW out of the scenario. If I were innocent, and I thought someone killed my loved one, I would never stop badgering them. He made a little noise about the 5N POIs and then faded away and it was all about how he was suffering and parents blaming Lauren. If she was looking for her phone she was retracing her steps to everywhere she had been that night, maybe on the first trip to Jay's her and David Rohn stopped by 10th and C (snorted klonopin?). Orrrrrrr....Hadar is lying about the phone, or knowing about Lauren being missing that early morning. All he had to do was walk down the hall to Hadar's and Lauren's apartment--maybe it was his apt. all along thus Lauren was calling the place everyone was at earlier when this all started, and tell Hadar Lauren had called from JR's phoneand was in trouble. Not answering your phone does not mean
not checking the number that called, or if it was a text, not answering the text doesn't mean you didn't get it. With this scenario, any number of these people could have jumped back into the scenario.
 
Where is everyone? No posts in two days? :)
 
Ixchel13 said:
gee-- looking for her phone? do you have a link because that is indeed very interesting. So, if true, Lauren thought David Rohn had her phone. Maybe he held it for her on the way to Jay's, and then remember, he left and went right back to SW because they have him on camera. Maybe he gave it to someone (ZC or roommates) who said they were heading up that way but they didn't,
or even maybe they went to Kilroys and called Lauren and said they had her phone there, that's why they went back to Kilroy's and by the time Lauren got there, the person who had the phone had left. So Lauren and CR returned to SW,
knocked on the door to the apt down the hall where the girls had been earlier (David Rohn's apt?), asked about phone, CR got punched, but the girls with her phone had already left and went back to 10th and C, hence CR and LS's stop there, by that time, they could have been playing keep-it-away from Lauren to get her in trouble with JW, never thinking of the consequences. Or maybe they gave it to Jesse, he was taking it up to JR's to confront Lauren and saw her leaving. Or, he was meant to catch up with her as she stumbled home, found her, argued with her and ended up slamming her head (accidentally?) against the wall or pushes her and she falls and hits her head. Then, he could place her by the dumpster, run up to JR's and say he found her dead, blame them for an od, but plan the story with him, excluding both him and CR (but insert head smack on concrete at an earlier time on the way to the alley with CR, no worries, amnesia takes care of that) and everyone alibis everyone else. In this scenario, JR thinks he killed Lauren by letting her leave, thus allowing JW out of the scenario. If I were innocent, and I thought someone killed my loved one, I would never stop badgering them. He made a little noise about the 5N POIs and then faded away and it was all about how he was suffering and parents blaming Lauren. If she was looking for her phone she was retracing her steps to everywhere she had been that night, maybe on the first trip to Jay's her and David Rohn stopped by 10th and C (snorted klonopin?). Orrrrrrr....Hadar is lying about the phone, or knowing about Lauren being missing that early morning. All he had to do was walk down the hall to Hadar's and Lauren's apartment--maybe it was his apt. all along thus Lauren was calling the place everyone was at earlier when this all started, and tell Hadar Lauren had called from JR's phoneand was in trouble. Not answering your phone does not mean
not checking the number that called, or if it was a text, not answering the text doesn't mean you didn't get it. With this scenario, any number of these people could have jumped back into the scenario.
Click to expand...

Here's the link you requested:
"JUNE 3, 2011 / 4:15 A.M.
Rohn, Spierer’s earlier companion, receives a call but doesn’t answer. The Journal News of New York will later report an unconfirmed account from Spierer’s roommate Hadar Tamir, who claims Jason Rosenbaum told her that Spierer used Rosenbaum’s phone to call Rohn because Spierer couldn’t locate her own device."
http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477
 
Thank you for finding that quote!


I was curious though - did HT mean that LS was calling because she couldn't find her phone and DR might have it or know where it was, OR did HT mean that LS called for a different reason (like a ride or maybe to "party more" according to some stories) and HT was merely explaining that LS called from JR's phone only because she didn't have hers (aka, she wasn't looking for her phone, she was supposedly calling for a different reason).

However, it's also still possible that LS didn't actually make any calls because there is no way to verify she was the one making the calls (like leaving a voicemail).
 
sammi89 said:
Thank you for finding that quote!


I was curious though - did HT mean that LS was calling because she couldn't find her phone and DR might have it or know where it was, OR did HT mean that LS called for a different reason (like a ride or maybe to "party more" according to some stories) and HT was merely explaining that LS called from JR's phone only because she didn't have hers (aka, she wasn't looking for her phone, she was supposedly calling for a different reason).

However, it's also still possible that LS didn't actually make any calls because there is no way to verify she was the one making the calls (like leaving a voicemail).
Click to expand...

well sammi anything's possible. It's the looking for the phone that IMO was
why Lauren was retracing her steps. Where it was, and whether someone put it at Kilroy's or whether she left it there, only matters if that where and someone had anything to do with her death. An example would be, what if someone had her phone and was reading JW's texts? And also read any texts that CR might have sent her earlier. It would be an ah-hah moment, not meant to hurt Lauren physically, but a chance to play a mean trick; or even maybe someone had it and wanted her to have it back but they were
not connecting. It would make sense that DR was holding her phone when they went to Kilroy's, she didn't have pockets.
Not to open another huge can of worms, but remember when they found the purse of another woman who had been murdered also right on Lauren's route? and at first they thought it was Lauren's but it was later revealed to be another woman who had just been murdered that week?
Also, in the IDS yesterday, sexual battery and rape near an "unspecified bar"
downtown, and he raped her in a secluded area nearby. That is the 3rd rape in the last 6 mos committed in a secluded area near an unidentified bar. One story recounted it as an area with bushes and landscaping. That was in the summer. Then in the fall, it described a small area with trees and bushes. This
current rape doesn't mention rufies, but the former two did. There is a bar, The Upland Brewery, right down the street from JR's, you can see it from JR's, and it is surrounded by creepy secluded areas.
Also, my all time favorite suspect bar, House Bar, also right around the corner from Jay's and has a secluded alleyway leading to it, and secluded areas with trees, bushes, and landscaping. Both of those bars a stone's throw away from 5N, and a gaggle of SO's living right around there. With the 5N guys taking all of the blame, someone could be rufie-ing away at these "undisclosed downtown bars". Again, FULL DISCLOSURE OF PLACES THAT WOMEN (AND MEN) ARE GETTING RUFIED AT! What in the world are these police and journalists waiting for?
 
Could you please link to those cases that you're talking about Ix?

I remember reading about a few assault cases too, but I thought that the one in the fall for ex, was about a woman who went home with a coworker and later suspected being drugged...? And I don't see mention of a bar in the recent sexual assault case? Maybe I'm missing it... I can't find the articles you are talking about, but if you are correct, I'd like to know more. Thanks.
 
My recollection about the stories of the call(s) from JR's phone is that:

First "Ray" heard from the POI that Jay had phoned DR looking for a ride for Lauren

Then HT told a different story that JR told her (which sounded scripted, IMO), which included this information about the phone call and other specific points, like the claim that he told her there was no alcohol left when Lauren got to his place.

Then both of those things were put into question by later reports. For ex., the private investigators reported statements from MB and JR and the lawsuit docs indicate that JR and MB made the calls looking for a ride or someone to help Lauren. And statements from a witness suggest Lauren was doing shots at JR's.
 
AbbeyR said:
Could you please link to those cases that you're talking about Ix?

I remember reading about a few assault cases too, but I thought that the one in the fall for ex, was about a woman who went home with a coworker and later suspected being drugged...? And I don't see mention of a bar in the recent sexual assault case? Maybe I'm missing it... I can't find the articles you are talking about, but if you are correct, I'd like to know more. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Abbey, the co-worker one wasn't one I mentioned. The one in yesterday's IDS says "unspecified downtown bar." There was one last summer where a woman was assaulted "in the shrubbery" near an unidentified downtown bar. Then in early fall, a woman remembers being outside near some bushes by again, an unidentified downtown bar, then woke up with a man on top of her raping her but doesn't remember how she got home.
I've posted on this thread somewhere about the co-worker one, because it's my theory that a bar employee at this unidentified downtown bar is a go-to person for rufies and this could be him.
But really, the two bars that stand out the most by having really secluded
areas near them are Upland and House Bar; although Kilroys has a dark alley
and a big old house right across on 9th St. that has a bunch of trees, bushes and landscaping that could shield a rapist. Neither Upland or House Bar is right downtown though, but I could see them being misnamed as such. It's probably Kilroys. Bears Place also has a weird spot behind it where a small canal runs through and it could definitely be a place to get rufied. This Saturday I'm going to take a little spin around and take notes and try to find this #$@@%^&% unidentified downtown bar.
We need to demand that these bars be named. It's not even accusing someone there, but it could be like, "the victim was drinking cocktails at
such and such a bar and woke up with a man on top of her 3 hours later not remembering how she got there.
 
Jupiter812 said:
Yeah, the sexual assaults and rapes around here really do fly under the radar. I don't know if the local Bloomington paper publishes them but the IDS does and does so consistently. Here is link to IDS article about the most recent one: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=95903.
Click to expand...

yes, thank Zeus (or Jupiter!) that the IDS does that because the Herald Times is grossly negligent about that.
 
AbbeyR said:
My recollection about the stories of the call(s) from JR's phone is that:

First "Ray" heard from the POI that Jay had phoned DR looking for a ride for Lauren

Then HT told a different story that JR told her (which sounded scripted, IMO), which included this information about the phone call and other specific points, like the claim that he told her there was no alcohol left when Lauren got to his place.

Then both of those things were put into question by later reports. For ex., the private investigators reported statements from MB and JR and the lawsuit docs indicate that JR and MB made the calls looking for a ride or someone to help Lauren. And statements from a witness suggest Lauren was doing shots at JR's.
Click to expand...

one misleading thing about the alleged phone calls from LE perspective is, they say 2 calls were made. Not, ONLY two calls were made. Had to be more phone calls, IMO. And that's just how LE avoids/protects/misleads the general public, to keep evidence safe.
 
Jupiter812 said:
Yeah, the sexual assaults and rapes around here really do fly under the radar. I don't know if the local Bloomington paper publishes them but the IDS does and does so consistently. Here is link to IDS article about the most recent one: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=95903.
Click to expand...

Yes, what is that about "unnamed bar"???!! BS, name the bar! LE shouldn't be protecting a bar's business, they need to be protecting the public!! Sounds like LE has their hand in the cookie jar!! "Protection payoffs" are not that uncommon, unfortunately, but when women are getting raped and disappearing the crap needs to stop! Sounds like an investigative story for IDS!
 
Ixchel13 said:
well sammi anything's possible. It's the looking for the phone that IMO was
why Lauren was retracing her steps. Where it was, and whether someone put it at Kilroy's or whether she left it there, only matters if that where and someone had anything to do with her death. An example would be, what if someone had her phone and was reading JW's texts? And also read any texts that CR might have sent her earlier. It would be an ah-hah moment, not meant to hurt Lauren physically, but a chance to play a mean trick; or even maybe someone had it and wanted her to have it back but they were
not connecting. It would make sense that DR was holding her phone when they went to Kilroy's, she didn't have pockets.
Not to open another huge can of worms, but remember when they found the purse of another woman who had been murdered also right on Lauren's route? and at first they thought it was Lauren's but it was later revealed to be another woman who had just been murdered that week?
Also, in the IDS yesterday, sexual battery and rape near an "unspecified bar"
downtown, and he raped her in a secluded area nearby. That is the 3rd rape in the last 6 mos committed in a secluded area near an unidentified bar. One story recounted it as an area with bushes and landscaping. That was in the summer. Then in the fall, it described a small area with trees and bushes. This
current rape doesn't mention rufies, but the former two did. There is a bar, The Upland Brewery, right down the street from JR's, you can see it from JR's, and it is surrounded by creepy secluded areas.
Also, my all time favorite suspect bar, House Bar, also right around the corner from Jay's and has a secluded alleyway leading to it, and secluded areas with trees, bushes, and landscaping. Both of those bars a stone's throw away from 5N, and a gaggle of SO's living right around there. With the 5N guys taking all of the blame, someone could be rufie-ing away at these "undisclosed downtown bars". Again, FULL DISCLOSURE OF PLACES THAT WOMEN (AND MEN) ARE GETTING RUFIED AT! What in the world are these police and journalists waiting for?
Click to expand...

One question about your phone theory, and apologies if you've already answered this, but how would whoever had her phone be able to gain access to it? Lauren had an Iphone (I believe?), everyone I know has a password on their phone. There are a few people who know my password, but not more than three, I wouldn't guess that people Lauren wasn't close to would know her password. Depending on her security settings, the most someone without the password would be able to do would be dial 911 and possibly view incoming texts. They wouldn't be able to read older texts, or send texts from her phone.
 
holly18 said:
One question about your phone theory, and apologies if you've already answered this, but how would whoever had her phone be able to gain access to it? Lauren had an Iphone (I believe?), everyone I know has a password on their phone. There are a few people who know my password, but not more than three, I wouldn't guess that people Lauren wasn't close to would know her password. Depending on her security settings, the most someone without the password would be able to do would be dial 911 and possibly view incoming texts. They wouldn't be able to read older texts, or send texts from her phone.
Click to expand...

BBM Looking for her phone doesn't have to be how she disappeared, or
even who disappeared her, just explains why she was out there
going to different places as opposed to just CR wanting to hook up with her
and dragging her around to date rape her. And for someone to actually have had her phone and put it back, someone would have had to either been involved in her disappearance either from accidental head smack at the time of trying to retrieve phone or OD at JRs waiting to see if they could find it by calling around, or to have found out about it that night and not the next day. that's all. If that were true, than that person would want to put the phone back so it looks like they were never involved, and she simply left it there.
Having a reason to be out there sounds more convincing to me than just Lauren partying with a bunch of guys, and just wanting to get more high and drunk than everyone else, or wanting to hook up with a guy knowing full well her boyfriend would immediately find out.
How do we know if during the altercation at SW, maybe someone said JW was on his way over, or had been called? and that's why she wanted to leave with CR.
The phone thing could very well be totally off kilter, but IMO, she felt compelled to leave when she was safe for some reason and it wasn't to hook up with CR.
 
I was just reading another case on this site and thought I'd bring this post from Nursebeeme over here:

nursebeeme said:
Things to do in Cases When There's No News:


- Go back through threads and collect what you think are the top ten most important links in the case, make a list of them, and post them. These lists would be great for both those familiar with the case, as well as people new to the case.

- If there's no timeline for the case, create one and post it, or begin one that others could add to. Find the most recent timeline, update it, and post it. If an existing timeline doesn't need updating, check to see if it's been posted within the last three pages of the most recent thread, and if not, go ahead and post it again for people new to the case to read.

- Write up your own recap of the story of the case and post it. Great for people who are new to the case, plus you get to give a voice to the victim.

- Go back and collect the known facts of the case, along with their source links, and post them. If you don't have time to collect all of them, just do whatever you have time for, and ask for others to add to it.

- Write up your own theory of what happened in the case and post it. Great to get others thinking about and posting on the case, and bring attention to it.

- Find a picture of the victim that hasn't been posted for a while, and post it so there's always a face to put with the victim's name, reminding people that the victim is a real person.

- Research to see if there's an updated missing poster and post it or link to it so it can be printed and distributed.

- Find the most recent map(s) of significant locations, update them if necessary, or just post the list of links if it hasn't been posted in the last few pages. If there's already a map created with one tool, create one with another tool that might give a different perspective. Maps can be created with Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/), Bing (http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH7), and other online tools.

- Check Google News or Interceder (http://interceder.net/) for the most recent news story, and post it with a note that it's the most recent story on the case.

- See if there's a candle lighting site for the victim. If so, light a candle and post the link. If not, create a site, light a candle, and post the link so others can light candles. http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?l=ENG

- Humanize the victim - see if you can find some of the victim's favorite things, make a list, and post them. Did you find the victim's favorite song? See if you can find the lyrics, and post a link to them. Did you find the victim's favorite place to go? See if you can find a website for it, or a link to it on Google Maps or Bing.com, and link to them.

- Write up a recap of the victim's story, or a particular aspect of the case that interests or puzzles you, in your very own unique way, and post it.

- Write up a Myth Buster! Do you know of a rumor or misinformation that's made the rounds in the case and has always bugged you? Look up the source links for the real facts, and bust the myth!

- Find all the Nancy Grace transcripts for all the shows about the case, make a list of the links, and post them. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ng.html

- Start a list of direct quotes from LE, along with the date stated, and link to source. Post it and ask others to contribute to it.

- Is there a certain news video or press conference that you and others are constantly listening to to determine what was said? Transcribe it and post it for reference.

- Make a Who's Who list of the people in the case, with their full name so they can be searched for easily, and what their role or relationship is to the case. Use initials only though, when appropriate per TOS.

- Make a list of the news websites that have been covering the case regularly, collect their URLs, and post it.

- For cases where there are general discussion threads instead of a forum, check to see if important information and links have been brought forward from previous threads, such as timeline, case recap, list of news websites, photo archives, candle lighting site for the victim, etc. Post the ones that haven't been brought forward yet.
__________________
Click to expand...
 
Not long ago, I asked a police officer who worked this case in Bloomington, what did he think happened to Lauren.
He said the Spierer's are suing the right guys.
 
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