Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

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Floh said:
There was clearly something different about the last link Suzy sent me and it did work. :)

the vaguries of the internet, eh? :rolleyes:

WOW about all those chairs in a semi circle around the big ol' armchair. it's clear they will be women sitting round the 'patriarch' in that room. :sick:
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Floh..............I'm so glad you were able to see at least part of the video. I think that particular video is highlights of the tour mixed in with other material from the FLDS article. It's not the complete tour.

Now that you've seen the video, you have a good idea of what was shown. The complete video shows Marilyn in the kitchen, which has all the appearance of an institutional/workplace lunch room. Another women is shown taking freshly baked bread out of the oven - she struggles to get it out of the loaf pan. OF note: there's about a dozen photos of men on the wall behind the long kitchen table. Throughout the tour, one can see a picture of Warren Jeffs in the hallway and each of the bedrooms.

The video moves on with Marilyn showing three different bedrooms where members of the household sleep. Then, there's the living room, which looks more like a lecture hall with the one large easy chair, with other chairs arranged in a semi circle.

Throughout the video, Marilyn constantly states that the children are gone, taken away from them. The whole tour was very scripted. I have the feeling that there were rehearsals prior to bringing the CNN cameras in.
 
Glow said:
I think the best indicator of the future is the past. When situations come up today many times they have a counterpart lurking somewhere in history. As far as the American Indians. They were a fringe society that practiced polygamy. Married daughters off at puberty. Traded their females with other tribes through raids. They practiced a "strange" religion. They were very harsh and strict with their children while simultaneously not giving them an "education". They dressed in a strange way. They were resistant to coming up to speed in the obviously "superior" white mans world. And they didn't bathe enough.

And they smelled funny.


I have a question cheko~ If two gay men want to have a spiritual marriage and adopt a child is that wrong?
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The Straw Man fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
 
Leila said:
Floh..............I'm so glad you were able to see at least part of the video. I think that particular video is highlights of the tour mixed in with other material from the FLDS article. It's not the complete tour.

Now that you've seen the video, you have a good idea of what was shown. The complete video shows Marilyn in the kitchen, which has all the appearance of an institutional/workplace lunch room. Another women is shown taking freshly baked bread out of the oven - she struggles to get it out of the loaf pan. OF note: there's about a dozen photos of men on the wall behind the long kitchen table. Throughout the tour, one can see a picture of Warren Jeffs in the hallway and each of the bedrooms.

The video moves on with Marilyn showing three different bedrooms where members of the household sleep. Then, there's the living room, which looks more like a lecture hall with the one large easy chair, with other chairs arranged in a semi circle.

Throughout the video, Marilyn constantly states that the children are gone, taken away from them. The whole tour was very scripted. I have the feeling that there were rehearsals prior to bringing the CNN cameras in.
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Yes those are the highlights i saw. didn't look like a welcoming relaxing home to me. didn't look like much of anything other than an institution.

as far as her unibrow is concerned, makes no never matter. it was her way of speaking i found repellent and sinister.

village of the damned: and if that sounds like emotive nonsense, so be it. it just was abnormal, as far as i am concerned and an unhealthy environment, IMO.
 
mostlylurking said:
OK, Glow. If we're going by the literal definition of the words:

Pedophilia or paedophilia (Commonwealth usage) is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction of adults to prepubescent children.
Rape is a form of assault where one individual forces another to have sexual intercourse against that person’s will.
The lack of valid consent does not necessarily mean that the victim explicitly refused to give consent. Generally, consent is considered invalid if it is obtained from someone who is:
Statutory rape refers to a sexual act that is considered rape by the law regardless of whether it was coercive or consensual. Such laws are common and exist in order to prevent adults from having sex with minors who are deemed legally unable to give effective informed consent.

I'll give you pedophile. You give me rape.

The comparison to the Catholic Church and the horrific indiscrestions of some of it's priests is not a fair comparison to the teachings of this FLDS sect.
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ok!:crazy: I'll do it! Only we need to go ahead and call it rape when any 18 year old teenaged boy has sex with his 15 year old girlfriend too. AND we need to go to BOTH their parents homes and take away any other children that might be living there too while we're at it!

I would be interested in hearing why thousands of priests raping unknown numbers of little boys isnt just as worthy of looking at?

I mean I know it won't be...."looked at" that is. The Catholic Church is too mainstream and too powerful. The goverment wouldn't dare try to shut them down because of an anonymous phone call alledging child abuse.
 
I think the issue should be pedophelia, period.

The unibrow look and lack of modern conveniences is common where I live. Most of my neighbors are Amish or Mennonite. My neighbor ladies don't tweeze, shave their legs, wear makeup or jewelry, cut their hair (ever) or have their hair unveiled.

My husband and I also do business with Sikh Indians (India not native American). Women (and men) of that culture don't choose their mates. Sikh marriages (even to those born in the U.S.) are arranged. Should something happen to your husband a sikh widow with children can't marry...ever. She has to live with her in-laws and care for them.

Technically, as the men are only legally married to one woman, they are men with mistresses--only the wife knows) People don't get thrown in jail for adultery these days. I'm not saying we shouldn't throw all cheaters in jail.

Pedophelia, is wrong and should never, ever be tolerated. But, I agree with Glow it is the pedophelia that is and should be the issue.

IMO
 
Glow said:
ok!:crazy: I'll do it! Only we need to go ahead and call it rape when any 18 year old teenaged boy has sex with his 15 year old girlfriend too. AND we need to go to BOTH their parents homes and take away any other children that might be living there too while we're at it!

I would be interested in hearing why thousands of priests raping unknown numbers of little boys isnt just as worthy of looking at?

I mean I know it won't be...."looked at" that is. The Catholic Church is too mainstream and too powerful. The goverment wouldn't dare try to shut them down because of an anonymous phone call alledging child abuse.
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The Straw Man fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
 
Leila said:
A question for all.........

We've speculated on how the men and women at the YFZ ranch would react to giving DNA samples. I believe that any man who knows he's the father of a child born to an underage girl, is going to refuse to give DNA. I expect many, if not most, of the men to refuse.

But, I've wondered about something else too. As the investigation goes forward, and if it looks like some of the men will be charged with crimes, will the men leave the ranch and go into hiding to avoid arrest? Or will the men insist that they all, men and women, abandon the YFZ ranch and scatter to other FLDS communities?

It's the latter possibility I wonder the most about. We know that the women are taught total obedience to "the prophet" and their husbands, but if they were told that they were to abandon their children forever to the government of Texas and flee to another FLDS community, would all the women comply?

I go back and forth on this. On one hand, seeing how uncooperative the women were with CPS, how they used the media - yet refused to answer questions, and how obviously brainwashed they appear, I think they would comply and abandon their children. On the other hand, the children are the only thing these women have, and I can't see them just walking away.
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There might be those who would not, but the majority I think would. After all, they believe that his word is law and there have been a few women who were told to leave the sect without any reason by Jeffs, they left, leaving husbands and children behind.
 
Glow said:
Here is my stand.

1) I wont use inflammatory inaccurate terms to whip up another's feelings. The facts can support themselves without that. (see rant below)

2) I do not suscribe to the belief that it is ok to hurt a "few" people and tread on their rights if we can accomplish a "greater" good for the many as determined by the state.

3) I think the power of the government should be carefully watched when it comes to their "reach" into the family home.

4) I do not believe it is the course of wisdom take over anothers life when we cannot offer them anything better than what they currently have.

5) I do believe that pedophiles should not only be removed from society but should in fact be executed if it is definite that they have offended. John Couey or Father James Porter are two that would be eligible in my mind.

6) I think this case will end up going to the Supreme Court. I don't know if it will be over the 1st amendment or the IV.

7) For what its worth, I think that most people are having a hard time separating out the underage aspect of this from the polygamy part.


aforementioned rant::crazy:
I have not and will not use inflammatory phrases like "pedophile" to describe each and every man in the compound. All of us who read and post on a crime forum know what a true pedophile is. It is a man (we will say man for the purpose of simplicity here) who has a sexual interest in children who have not developed sexually. It is a pathological twist in their mental make up. They are sexually excited by a prepubescent child . The FLDS men wait until a girl menstruates and then she is spiritually "married". This seems an awful practice to me personally living in the time period I do but it isn't true pedophilia according to the medical definition. What it is could be more accurately defined as adults engaging in illegal sexual activity with minors.

But that doesn't care the same punch to say that. Its more accurate, but not as titillating. And by the way, yes, I do think there are sexual predators among the FLDS. I think Warren Jeff's is one. He is exactly where he needs to be. Hope they find a way to keep him a long time. That aside, I cant condemn every man in this sect on the basis of that. Not anymore than I can condemn the entire Catholic church on the basis of the rampant pedophilia(meeting the ACCURATE definition) that has and still does occur in their ranks.
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I strongly disagree with your #2 above. There will always be times when the rights of one person interfere with the rights of another. As I've previously said, if this happens and one party is an adult and the other is a child, then the child holds the trump card. If protecting the children means stepping on the rights of some adults, well then so be it. I will ALWAYS be an advocate for the child.

You make a very valid point about the definition of a pedophile. On that point I agree with you. For the most part these men are probably not pedophiles, though I would imagine some are, just like in the general populace.

I believe that these men take great pleasure in deflowering a virgin, and the younger, the better. I believe one of the reasons this religion was invented was to satisfy that sexual preoccupation and fantasies of the male members.

I don't agree about people having a hard time separating the child abuse aspect (underage "marriages) from the polygamy part. Both are repulsive to my way of thinking, but despite any laws against plural marriage, I think it will be hard to prosecute under those laws, and would be very ill-advised due to civil rights issues and possible reversal of those laws by both the state and federal supreme courts.

It very well may mean that none of these children will be entrusted to their parents again due to the child abuse issues. If the waterboarding torture, extreme spanking, locking in closets, depriving of food and water issues can be proven that it is a part of their belief system, then no child is safe with these people, and all children should be removed permanently.

Your statement, "Not anymore than I can condemn the entire Catholic church on the basis of the rampant pedophilia(meeting the ACCURATE definition) that has and still does occur in their ranks." is pure speculation on your part and I find it irresponsible and offensive. How do you know that there is still rampant pedophilia within the Catholic Church? I don't believe that for a nanosecond.
 
In 1856, the key plank of the Republican Party was to "prohibit in the territories those twin relics of barbarism, polygamy and slavery."

In 1862, during their first term with full control of both Congress and the White House, the Republicans passed the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act; the act stated that the practice of polygamy was illegal in all U.S. territories.

Moreover, in 1879 a Supreme Court decision declared that polygamy was not protected by the Constitution (Reynolds v. United States). The decision was based on the long-standing principle that "laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere belief and opinions, they may with practices."

Polygamy is a practice and it is against the law; no religion or sect should be above the law. Texas certainly has the authority to demand that the occupants of the YFZ Ranch be held accountable for the practice of polygamy, which often leads to the exploitation of both women and children, and child abuse. All states have the authority to demand that these practices end.
 
Leila said:
*snip*

The video moves on with Marilyn showing three different bedrooms where members of the household sleep. Then, there's the living room, which looks more like a lecture hall with the one large easy chair, with other chairs arranged in a semi circle.

Throughout the video, Marilyn constantly states that the children are gone, taken away from them. The whole tour was very scripted. I have the feeling that there were rehearsals prior to bringing the CNN cameras in.
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Scripted indeed. What I noticed most was the absence of anything 'homey' - no toys, mementos or nick-knacks. It showed several people sharing a bedroom and nothing personal there, either. Even the kitchen resembled an institution, and the dining hall didn't appear to have highchairs for the babies. Marilyn made it a point to show that the house had grass for the children to play, but it didn't show anything for them to play with or on. Children deserve more.
 
Ca-Sun said:
Scripted indeed. What I noticed most was the absence of anything 'homey' - no toys, mementos or nick-knacks. It showed several people sharing a bedroom and nothing personal there, either. Even the kitchen resembled an institution, and the dining hall didn't appear to have highchairs for the babies. Marilyn made it a point to show that the house had grass for the children to play, but it didn't show anything for them to play with or on. Children deserve more.
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Not even a simply tire swing:eek: NOthing whatsoever to stimluate a young child's mind. I wonder what the toddlers did all day?
 
Glow said:
....I would be interested in hearing why thousands of priests raping unknown numbers of little boys isnt just as worthy of looking at?
Click to expand...

Because raping children is not taught as a tenent of the Catholic Religion, whereas, forcing underage children into "marriage" is taught as a tenent of this FLDS sect.

If it is proven that children are "groomed" from birth, I will rescind my offer of "giving you the pedophile term". I only offer that for now, as it has not been proven. Honestly, I believe it will be, but does not appear to be on the table yet. If it proven that these children have been beaten and then waterboarded, as former members have indicated, then abuse is abuse & CPS has every right to remove all children who may be in harms way from that also.

As far as the 18 year old with a 15 year old scenario goes, that would more likely be statutory rape as you described it & not sexual abuse in the same sense as this more massive indoctrination as demanded by Jeffs.
 
Sex at the age of 7

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gr...cts-sex-slavery/2008/04/11/1207856831642.html

Grim tales surface of sect's sex slavery

"The Mackert sisters grew up alongside Jeffs in Colorado City, near Arizona's border with Mormon-dominated Utah."


"My father had four wives yet he couldn't keep his hands off his daughters," said Rena Mackert, one of 31 siblings. "One of my sisters had five sons, all sodomised by their father."Referring to her own experience, Rena's sister, Kathleen Mackert, said: "I was required to perform oral sex on my father when I was seven, and it escalated from there. "The abuse was rampant - physical, sexual, emotional. We experienced all three. Some of it at the hands of the men, some of it at the hands of the wives."

"You are taught that you can all but kill a child for deliberate disobedience. The men have their power taken away by [Warren] Jeffs. The only thing they have control over is their wives and children. It's power, it's control, and it's
sex. "This is about underage children being bartered as sex slaves, taken across state lines to marry into other compounds. It's just that they tried to cover it up under the label of freedom of religion."
 
mollymalone said:
In 1856, the key plank of the Republican Party was to "prohibit in the territories those twin relics of barbarism, polygamy and slavery."

In 1862, during their first term with full control of both Congress and the White House, the Republicans passed the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act; the act stated that the practice of polygamy was illegal in all U.S. territories.

Moreover, in 1879 a Supreme Court decision declared that polygamy was not protected by the Constitution (Reynolds v. United States). The decision was based on the long-standing principle that "laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere belief and opinions, they may with practices."

Polygamy is a practice and it is against the law; no religion or sect should be above the law. Texas certainly has the authority to demand that the occupants of the YFZ Ranch be held accountable for the practice of polygamy, which often leads to the exploitation of both women and children, and child abuse. All states have the authority to demand that these practices end.
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I thought each man is married to his first wife and that the other marriages are not legal. Technically aren't the men adulterers?

JMO
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/20/sunday/main4029277.shtml

"The majority of marriages that we're aware of happen between 14 and 16, said Flora Jessup. "However, we do know of marriages that have occurred to as young as 8- or 9-year-old children." "All the girls' names are added into this book called the 'Joy Book,' and the prophet goes through and gets revelation from God," explained Jessup.

Marci Hamilton, a church and state scholar at Cardozo Law School in New York, is an expert on childhood sex abuse. She has one word for it: pedophilia. "
 
Jolynna said:
I thought each man is married to his first wife and that the other marriages are not legal. Technically aren't the men adulterers?

JMO
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The other marriages aren't legal, but if a state recognizes common law marriages they might be viewed as committing bigamy.
 
mollymalone said:
Sex at the age of 7

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gr...cts-sex-slavery/2008/04/11/1207856831642.html

Grim tales surface of sect's sex slavery

"The Mackert sisters grew up alongside Jeffs in Colorado City, near Arizona's border with Mormon-dominated Utah."


"My father had four wives yet he couldn't keep his hands off his daughters," said Rena Mackert, one of 31 siblings. "One of my sisters had five sons, all sodomised by their father."Referring to her own experience, Rena's sister, Kathleen Mackert, said: "I was required to perform oral sex on my father when I was seven, and it escalated from there. "The abuse was rampant - physical, sexual, emotional. We experienced all three. Some of it at the hands of the men, some of it at the hands of the wives."

"You are taught that you can all but kill a child for deliberate disobedience. The men have their power taken away by [Warren] Jeffs. The only thing they have control over is their wives and children. It's power, it's control, and it's
sex. "This is about underage children being bartered as sex slaves, taken across state lines to marry into other compounds. It's just that they tried to cover it up under the label of freedom of religion."
Click to expand...

ALL pedophiles need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

But, that needs to remain the issue.

MOO
 
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