17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #15

[Talina]

Zimmerman was perfectly within his rights to carry a gun. He was within his rights to report someone suspicious. He was within his rights to deduce, from experience, what suspicious behavior looks like and he was within his rights to follow, from a distance until told to do otherwise. Trayvon was within his rights to be there visiting his father's fiance, he was within his rights to walk down the middle of the courtyard - even to look around at houses. He was absolutely within his rights to stare at GZ, come toward him and take off running. Trayvon Martin was not within his rights to come around and sucker punch George and slam his head into the cement. When he saw Zimmerman's gun, he was not within his rights to try and take it from him.

Saying George was stalking Trayvon is not a fact - no matter how many times it is said, it's not going to be. Saying George has a history of racism is not a fact - could it be? Sure, but we've seen zero evidence of it, so IMO, it shouldn't be repeated again and again as if it is.

As it stands, both George and Trayvon are considered victims here - I'll continue to respect Trayvon, not only because I empathize with his parents, but because our words are forever and I would hate to think George's parents would read here someday and be hurt by something I might have said that has absolutely no basis in truth.

JMO

BBM 1 - Has it been proven by any evidence (other than statements attributed to GZ) that TM sucker punched GZ and slammed his head into the concrete?

Assuming for a moment that it has been proven, why wouldn't the SYG law apply to TM in that instance since in his mind he might be fearful of the person following him, perhaps noticed he had something under his jacket (i.e. the holstered gun) and is fearful for his life.

BBM 2 - I definitely disagree that if someone sees a gun on someone that has been following them and has them spooked that they have no right to try to get the gun away from that person. I'm not so sure that would be a smart thing to do but depending on the circumstances, that might be their only hope of getting out of the situation alive.

IMO

 

[highflyer]

I don't look at this as if it's a game. I don't believe a guy sitting at his computer with a $30 program that came out in March, 2012, is all that reliable. Anyone can use a computer program - there's a lot more to it.

I don't see what difference it makes even if it were Trayvon, anyone would be freaking out fighting over a gun - I'd find it strange that a person would make no sound at all.

It makes a difference because Zimmerman stated that it was him yelling for help.

 

[vlpate]

BBM...GZ has no right to pick and choose who to stalk and kill. But he did.

He's been right about suspicious individuals, but he's also been wrong. DEAD wrong.

I'll say it again...there was no problem until GZ went looking for one.

We will never know whether or not GZ had a right to be suspicious of Trayvon. If he ran because he was scared of a guy in a truck, he should have run home or he should have called 911. If he was running because he was up to something and got scared, GZ would have been right. We don't know - it is not out of the realm of possibility that Trayvon could have been up to something. IMO

 

[RANCH]

To me, this is the rub, the SYG law. I do feel George should have been arrested and he should have stayed in jail until an investigation was done. If it lead to a trial, so be it. I just don't find it to be George Zimmerman's fault that this didn't happen. I think he would still have gotten off pleading self-defense (if his story is accurate), and the parents would have closure.

Nothing to do with race or GZ carrying a concealed weapon, everything to do with a flawed law. IMO

I think that the Florida statute that prohibits the arrest of someone using the SYG law unless there is probable cause that the force was unlawful ties LE hands a bit.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...032&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

 

[vlpate]

It makes a difference because Zimmerman stated that it was him yelling for help.

I heard more than one voice in one of the 911 calls. I only heard one yelling help, but that doesn't mean they weren't both yelling for help. All we heard was the tail end of the altercation. I seriously don't see what difference it makes who was yelling. Forensics on the gun and Zimmerman's injuries tell a lot. Everyone has been going on about the funeral director saying Trayvon had no injuries, all that tells me is GZ never got a punch in and was overpowered.

Of course common sense tells me any injuries would have been covered with make-up - even any that might have been on his hands.

 

[vlpate]

I think that the Florida statute that prohibits the arrest of someone using the SYG law unless there is probable cause that the force was unlawful ties LE hands a bit.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...032&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

Right, that's what I'm saying, were it not for this law, he'd have been arrested. I don't know what they found at the scene to make them believe GZ's story, or what their eyewitness said, but it was evidently enough. Thanks for the link btw.

 

[Chris_Texas]

I used the word "crime" due to the context of the conversation. Basically, someone was comparing this case to one in which a 19 year old black kid was approached by an officer who asked what he was doing before the kid shot the officer in the face. The poster stated that there was no outcry about that being a racial bias case. I was pointing out that in that case, the kid was the killer and was a criminal using a gun. In this case, the only crime committed by Trayvon was being black.

But as far as Trayvon being "suspicious", come on. He was acting like he was on drugs? He reached into his waistband? He was casing houses? Nonsense. Zimmerman knew exactly what to say to get the cops out there and to justify the possible use of his gun. Trayvon went to get candy and tea and then go home. He was only "suspicious" because he was a young black man walking around at night. Everything in that call to the police sounded so blatantly contrived and illogical, just like the stories that a scared young kid hid and then jumped a retreating Zimmerman, or confronted him saying, "What's up homie?" Or, wildly smashed a larger man's head into the concrete over and over again, or grappled for the gun while saying, "you're gonna' die", or dramatically grabbed his chest and stated, "You got me!" as he fell back after being shot.

Zimmerman's a good little story-teller. I think his stories sound silly and unreal but apparently they have served him well in the past and people believe him as they have gotten him out of trouble numerous times. No wonder he continues to tell stories. IMO.

Very well said! This is my impression as well. Every during the 911 call his story doesn't really make a lot of sense. The guy is throwing out sound bites he knows will get a reaction from the police, but at no point does he elaborate. He never says why the kid is suspicious, why he is messed up, what is "definately" so wrong with him, why he believes he is on drugs. And we are asked to believe that he never even considered or noticed the kid's race until questioned, but could instantly real off an elaborate description of everything else down to his white shoes.

 

[TonyGatto]

Imagine this goes to trial and no audio experts are permitted to testify -- the jury just listens the 911 call, hears the screams, and makes its own decision. I think the majority -- or at least a plurality -- would believe it is Trayvon.

 

[vlpate]

BBM 1 - Has it been proven by any evidence (other than statements attributed to GZ) that TM sucker punched GZ and slammed his head into the concrete?

I don't have the evidence, but I have to assume there was enough to let him go. I'm gong by what LE has said.

Assuming for a moment that it has been proven, why wouldn't the SYG law apply to TM in that instance since in his mind he might be fearful of the person following him, perhaps noticed he had something under his jacket (i.e. the holstered gun) and is fearful for his life.

A reasonable person would go to their house and not confront the person they perceive is following them. A reasonable person would call 911. I don't think the law applies to a person with two ways out of the situation and chooses to confront the stranger following them.

GZ did not have a gun in a holster under his jacket.

BBM 2 - I definitely disagree that if someone sees a gun on someone that has been following them and has them spooked that they have no right to try to get the gun away from that person. I'm not so sure that would be a smart thing to do but depending on the circumstances, that might be their only hope of getting out of the situation alive.

IMO

I think I would choose running like my life depended on it - the odds seem much better for getting out alive. IMO

 

[highflyer]

I heard more than one voice in one of the 911 calls. I only heard one yelling help, but that doesn't mean they weren't both yelling for help. All we heard was the tail end of the altercation. I seriously don't see what difference it makes who was yelling. Forensics on the gun and Zimmerman's injuries tell a lot. Everyone has been going on about the funeral director saying Trayvon had no injuries, all that tells me is GZ never got a punch in and was overpowered.

Of course common sense tells me any injuries would have been covered with make-up - even any that might have been on his hands.

Zimmerman said he yelled for help and no one would help him. It was a lie. The boy was terrified and screaming for his life. As a child advocate surely you must be horrified listening to that boy yelling for his life. How can that not make a difference. It shows Zimmerman to be a liar. What of the rest of his statement?

 

[OneLove]

Well since anything any of us think is completely irrelevant we might as well stop this discussion right now.

I didn't say anything we think is irrelevant, I said it is irrelevant to the OUTCOME (in court)...

What we postulate in here is much opinion, much bias, much "slant" as we see the media do, but it will have no bearing on the OUTCOME.

 

[OneLove]

So do you feel that Florida's concealed carry laws are the main contributing factor here or the "stand your ground" law? Or both?

I think the main contributing factor was the misjudgment of one individual and his chosen actions.

Blaming the law or blaming the gun is simply deflection from accountability for one individual's actions in one particular situation.

 

[TonyGatto]

Originally Posted by vlpate
He was watching a suspicious male that he didn't recognize in a gated community. Trayvon was obviously acting suspicious or Zimmerman would have gone on to Target. He reported him - just like he'd reported 6 BM's before. Judging from George's history in dealing with suspicious individuals in the gated community, I don't buy that GZ purposely stalked, chased, or followed Trayvon in an effort to kill him. He'd never done anything like this before...he only called and waited. I think he was watching him, trying not to lose "sight" of him in an effort to let police know where Trayvon went....which should have been home.

Zimmerman has a busted nose and a gash on his head - why go through that when you're out just trying to pop a cap off in a black kid? The victim, IMO, is George Zimmerman. I believe TM hid and then followed GZ, who was on his way back to his truck and confronted him.

JMO

Where would TM be hiding? Where would GZ be walking? What direction? Can you give me a scenario of how this happened?

 

[HiHater]

RIP Tray!!!

 

[Talina]

I don't have the evidence, but I have to assume there was enough to let him go. I'm gong by what LE has said.


A reasonable person would go to their house and not confront the person they perceive is following them. A reasonable person would call 911. I don't think the law applies to a person with two ways out of the situation and chooses to confront the stranger following them.

GZ did not have a gun in a holster under his jacket.


I think I would choose running like my life depended on it - the odds seem much better for getting out alive. IMO

BBM

He didn't? Where was it then?

 

[HiHater]

 

[TonyGatto]

 

[justthinkin]

Imagine this goes to trial and no audio experts are permitted to testify -- the jury just listens the 911 call, hears the screams, and makes its own decision. I think the majority -- or at least a plurality -- would believe it is Trayvon.

Until the state's attorney gets Tracy Martin on the stand and asks if he remembers making the statement, That's not my son screaming. That's not Trayvon's voice (or words to that effect.)

Who is the jury going to believe then? They'll believe the parent.

 

[RANCH]

I think the main contributing factor was the misjudgment of one individual and his chosen actions.

Blaming the law or blaming the gun is simply deflection from accountability for one individual's actions in one particular situation.

Thank you for answering my questions with objectivity and not emotions.

I think that each persons actions in this case will be looked at and scrutinized, as it should be. Hopefully we will all get the answers that we seek. JMO.

 

[OneLove]

We will never know whether or not GZ had a right to be suspicious of Trayvon. If he ran because he was scared of a guy in a truck, he should have run home or he should have called 911. If he was running because he was up to something and got scared, GZ would have been right. We don't know - it is not out of the realm of possibility that Trayvon could have been up to something. IMO

Anyone who has seen the picture of the walkway to Trayvon's home can see that the sidewalk is in the middle, completely out in the open with absolutely no cover to shield a person running for his life. To run down the length of that walkway is to choose to be a sitting duck. I believe, even at the age of seventeen, that Trayvon had more sense than that.

If it were me, and some strange fella was following me (my first impression cause I just couldn't fathom someone coming out of the blue and shooting me down for no reason), I would first run out of sight to behind the condos. I would then find the first safe cover that would shield me from sight and wait while holding my breath to be sure I lost this unknown strange fella. If I then turned and saw that he had come upon me from behind or the other side, I would probably freak and start screaming "HELP HELP".

I think there's a good chance that a thorough investigation will show this is what happened to Trayvon, God bless him for all eternity.

And I just don't see how any other factors but the events of that night can be dragged into the equation without there being ENORMOUS bias inherent in that.

That's my opinion.

But it too will be irrelevant to the outcome of an investigation and trial. The facts will stand alone and we just don't know what many of those are yet.