17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[highflyer]

This does make one wonder if ole George has any greater insight now into what Trayvon felt like the night he was stalked and shot down in the street, i.e. what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a rogue mentality that combines little regard for personal rights with an unwillingness to let the authorities do their jobs. The universe has a funny way of teaching people lessons they need to learn, whether they want to learn them or not, no?

Uh, this makes me queasy. As much as I want to make sure that justice has been done and am glad that the DOJ and the FBI are investigating, the idea of anyone being hunted is disturbing. If it turns out like it appears that Trayvon was not treated fairly by those handling the case earlier, then George deserves to be arrested and go to trial, but never be stalked. People can't take the law into their own hands. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[katydid23]

uvamerica posted a link yesterday that I didn't read until a little while ago about a letter that someone in the Zimmerman family allegedly sent to the sister of a black homeless man that was beaten a couplr of years ago by an SPD officer's son. I vaguely remember the situation from the news because, like Zimmerman, the officer's son wasn't arrested right away and there were protests out of the black community.

I'm almost shaking my head in amazement at this letter that was also copied to the NAACP in Sanford by whoever wrote it:



Excuse Me?

Can they possibly think that GZ taking the life of Trayvon can be excused or forgotten about even IF it's true about George grandstanding at a church and handing out a few flyers? Then to close the letter with telling an outraged group of people what they NEED to do? If George Zimmerman had been telling the truth this ticking time bomb could have been diffused long ago in a very simple straight forward fashion.

How do you know he was 'grandstanding?' Maybe he was really concerned about the injustice. He was apparently the only 'white' face at those meetings and he tried to help organize the protests. Couldn't this person have a point, that perhaps he is NOT a racist, like everybody is assuming?

I think he should have been arrested that night. But I always think people need to try and be objective, and not attribute lots of hatred and vitriol that is unnecessary, imo.

 

[Nova]

So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

I've wondered that myself. I think it's probably just a badly worded sentence and "John" told the guy on top to "stop", not the guy calling for help.

 

[Elley Mae]

I've wondered that myself. I think it's probably just a badly worded sentence and "John" told the guy on top to "stop", not the guy calling for help.

I have thought it is a person that knows english as a second language.

 

[vlpate]

Pure speculation. The only thing that would make sense is that TM saw the gun and that is why he was yelling for help as he beat GZ. TM must have seen GZ as a threat which is why he screamed for help while he struggled to keep GZ away from his gun.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Could be, and I've thought along those lines, but I have never heard of anyone screaming when a gun is pulled on them or punching the armed person in the nose. A crazy person or someone on drugs would, but I doubt Trayvon was either.

My speculation: GZ was wanting someone to help him get Trayvon off of him and when no one would help (I am not married to this part), he pulled his gun, Trayvon saw it, tried to go for it and GZ pulled the trigger.

There was not a lot of time for GZ to make a decision. The gun was the easiest way out - had he not pulled the gun, LE would have broken up the fight and GZ would have walked away, as would have Trayvon.

JMO

 

[uvamerica]

(snipped)
"If something happens to George as a result of the race furor stirred up by this mischaracterization of George there will be blood on your hands as well as the rest of the racist that have rushed to judgement."

"I will not be providing my name because all our family is in hiding and frankly scared by the threats from the black community. If you feel a need to respond I will see this in the media (IF you do the right thing) And I will be happy to provide more details showing how wrong you really are. I will not remain anonymous after the outcome of this case is determined. There are going to be lots of people that need to be held accountable for their rush to judgement."

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/04/04/DOC040412.pdf

I'm really not sure what to say a/b this letter, I think Papa summed it up pretty good. But there's something a/b the wording that bothers me, I just can't put it into words. :moo:

 

[Chris_Texas]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

After listening to the even more enhanced audio it sounds even less like punks than before. There is no way in hell that word was punks, it's absurd in my opinion.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/05/11040112-trayvon-martin-where-do-we-go-from-here?lite

Corey can decide whether to file charges in the case herself or send the case to a grand jury. She has the latitude to convene that closed-door process here in Seminole County or someplace else. And, of course, she can decide that the Sanford police decision not to arrest Zimmerman, based on his claim of self-defense, is justified.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Very interesting. I have noticed that a lot of people are using that alleged racial slur as the reason they know he is guilty of murder. I wonder if this will change anyone's opinion.

ETA: I guess not...

And yet I have not heard anyone here say that at all.

I personally have gone further than most -- I believe it is highly possible, based on my inexpert and subjective consideration of the original 911 call plus what happened after, that this was premeditated murder. I believe, my opinion, that Zimmerman intended to gun down TM right there on the main street while on the phone with dispatch, and that the only reason he did not was that Trayvon ran.

That's what I believe. My opinion. And so you know, whatever word GZ might or might not have muttered under his breath has zero bearing on this opinion.

 

[Nova]

Right, I was being facetious on the light. Just trying to figure out how it could be so dark the guy could not tell one person was black and the other person was white, he mistook the coat Zimmerman was wearing for a sweater but was able to see Zimmerman's mouth moving to know he was yelling.

If we saw two figures grappling in the dark and heard one yelling for help, I think most of us would assume the figure on the bottom was the one crying for assistance.

But the fact is they might be struggling over a gun or the figure on the bottom might be holding on to the figure above him to prevent an escape.

I think we also know from those "witness studies" they show on TV that eye witnesses are perfectly capable of transposing the clothes of one figure onto the other as the witness recalls the incident.

So I believe there are any number of possibilities as to what "John" actually saw.

 

[highflyer]

(snipped)
"If something happens to George as a result of the race furor stirred up by this mischaracterization of George there will be blood on your hands as well as the rest of the racist that have rushed to judgement."

"I will not be providing my name because all our family is in hiding and frankly scared by the threats from the black community. If you feel a need to respond I will see this in the media (IF you do the right thing) And I will be happy to provide more details showing how wrong you really are. I will not remain anonymous after the outcome of this case is determined. There are going to be lots of people that need to be held accountable for their rush to judgement."

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/04/04/DOC040412.pdf

I'm really not sure what to say a/b this letter, I think Papa summed it up pretty good. But there's something a/b the wording that bothers me, I just can't put it into words. :moo:

That is a disturbing letter. Threatening.

 

[Adrienne37]

No way did Zimmerman utter the word punks. I've listened to their "enhanced" version and I have listened to the "unenhanced" version and in fact, to me, it sounds more like the c word to me on the enhanced version. Considering the job that I do each and every day, I feel very confident stating that Zimmerman uttered the C**N word and not the word PUNKS. Zimmerman had no right doing what he did and I feel confident that somewhere between now and next week, he is going to be locked up. When his case gets to trial, he can then have all of his "family" and "acquaintances" there on his behalf. Otherwise, I personally myself have heard all the lies and mistruths that I want to hear from anyone associated with Zimmerman.



~jmo~

 

[katydid23]

And yet I have not heard anyone here say that at all.

I personally have gone further than most -- I believe it is highly possible, based on my inexpert and subjective consideration of the original 911 call plus what happened after, that this was premeditated murder. I believe, my opinion, that Zimmerman intended to gun down TM right there on the main street while on the phone with dispatch, and that the only reason he did not was that Trayvon ran.

That's what I believe. My opinion. And so you know, whatever word GZ might or might not have muttered under his breath has zero bearing on this opinion.

Then why did he bother to ask " what are you doing here?" If his goal was to kill this kid all along, why bother talking to him at all? And why were they wrestling around on the ground? Why would GZ knock TM onto the ground if he was planning to shoot and kill him?

 

[Beyond Belief]

I wonder if what is said in that letter is true? Surely no one would make a claim like that unless it was.

 

[Nova]

They aren't hearsay if GZ told his father and Mr. Oliver directly. Hearsay would apply to Mr. Taaffe because he has not talked with GZ. jmo

I don't believe that's exactly right as worded, LambChop. Some things GZ told his father and Oliver are hearsay, but there are many exceptions. If he confessed a crime to them, it might be admitted. If the prosecution wants to show that GZ had told several conflicting stories, he might get GZ's statements to others admitted not to show the statements are true, but just to show the inconsistencies.

Etc. and so forth. I don't know all the exceptions to the hearsay rule, and I don't know which statements you mean. And, as always, IANAL.

 

[vlpate]

From a timeline and measurements I put together the other day in a different discussion at a different place:

From the clubhouse porch where it is thought Trayvon stopped to raise his hood to the corner of the sidewalk where he turned to go home is 412 feet. At a walk it would take a little over a minute and a half to travel. If he started just before 19:12, that would get him to the corner of the sidewalk at 19:13:30. Running of course would be faster and put him there sooner.

GZ's call ended at 19:13:45. From where his truck was parked to the next street past where Trayvon would have turned is 344 feet, then 93 feet back to the corner of the sidewalk. It would have taken GZ over a minute and a half to walk that distance. If GZ left after the end of his call to SPD that would bring him back to the corner at 19:15:10.

The girlfriend's call ended at 19:16. She described hearing Trayvon ask "Why are you following me?" and a man ask "What are you doing here?" So Trayvon had a couple of unaccounted minutes and GZ had not quite a minute unaccounted.

Trayvon's body was found roughly 40 feet up the path - it would take about ten seconds to travel that distance. But let's deal with the couple of minutes that Trayvon "lingered". He thought he had lost his follower, he's talking to his girlfriend. When he gets back to where he's staying, his 13 year old soon to be step brother will be there. I don't know about you, but when I was dating, I didn't want my little sister listening to my calls to boyfriends. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TRAYVON WAS DOING - he was not doing anything illegal. He was talking to his girl - the first and last love of his life, apparently.

We'll never know what GZ was doing with that extra 50 seconds - stalking Trayvon?

I think Trayvon had turned the corner and was spending time before he went back to the townhouse. Then this strange man who'd been following shows up. Exactly what happened in those last forty four seconds of Trayvon's life is known only to George Zimmerman, but from the tone of those screams, Trayvon was being terrorized by this vigilante who then shot him.

IMO, JMO, etc.

BEM: But by the same token, what was Trayvon doing for the three minutes GZ had lost sight of him - stalking George? This is not just one of my sticking points, this is one of the reasons, according to Lee, credibility was lent to GZ's story. If Trayvon was scared, he'd have gone home. Where was he during that time??

eta: looking for a link if anyone is not familiar with Lee's comments.

""If Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesn't Trayvon keep walking?" Lee said. "He's 70 yards from his house. I think based on the timing of the call and Zimmerman losing sight of him that he had made it to that 'T' (at the end of the path) and was starting to walk toward his house.

"My wish is that he would have kept walking."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...appened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083

 

[Desdemona]

I still can't get past GZ's story about TM jumping him from behind. For the life of me, I can't figure out how someone that jumps you from behind manages to punch you in the face breaking your nose. :waitasec:
JMHO

Respectfully, where is this idea coming from, that GZ claims to have been "jumped from behind" by TM? (BBM)

As I recall, GZ's explanation was that TM reappeared from behind GZ moments after TM had earlier run away and disappeared toward the back entrance; that TM then verbally confronted GZ for following him, leading to tense and belligerent words being spoken, and finally a punch was thrown.

This is from the Orlando Sentinel:

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Apologies if this has already been posted or replied to, and I've missed it.
<modsnip>

 

[highflyer]

<modsnip>

Is there any way to know it is connected to the Zimmerman family?

 

[gxm]

After listening to the even more enhanced audio it sounds even less like punks than before. There is no way in hell that word was punks, it's absurd in my opinion.

I agree. It sounds like "cold" to me. And I'm guessing GZ doesn't even remember muttering "f'ing cold" under his breath. It's the sort of thing you say to yourself without even thinking.

Further, IMO, the tape should never have been "enhanced" to look for the elusive racial element so many were seeking. IMO, a person committing a hate crime does not mutter inaudible slurs. They shout them. Even further, a person who is committing a hate crime doesn't call LE so that he can be recorded using those slurs moments before shooting a teenager dead.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[Horace Finklestein]

That is a disturbing letter. Threatening.

Not a fraction as threatening as what GZ has been put through imo.