2009.06.22 Nancy Grace

[impatientredhead]

Duct tape on the face of a child is agg child abuse...and if the abuse leads to death it's felony murder. There are other factors that combine w/ death to equal murder as in robbery, etc...All murders are abuse, but if you shoot an adult it's murder, 1st degree, 2nd degree or manslaughter...there is no abuse plus death = murder in adults, like there is in the case of a child. Maybe I read your statement wrong, but I thought this was what you were referring to.

Abuse of an elderly person or an adult that you are responsible for the care of (covers the disabled) can also be put in the same statute for felony murder.

 

[jai-yen]

Mark Williams: state wants to go to the jail to photograph Casey's tattoo. Prosecutors say it will be relevant to the case. She got the tattoo early July 2008.

Danny Knight, owner of tattoo parlor: Casey was a regular customer coming in with a small group of friends. She has two tattoos. He spoke with Casey a few days after the tattoo when she came back in to make another appointment. On her way to airport to pick up friends coming in from Puerto Rico. Casey wanted another tattoo. Nothing unusual about her demeanor when she got the BV tattoo (from another employee) or that he himself noticed. Told him Caylee was with the nanny.

I'd be curious to see the other tattoos also. Maybe they are noted on the booking sheet??




~Jai Yen

 

[Searchfortruth]

Abuse of an elderly person or an adult that you are responsible for the care of (covers the disabled) can also be put in the same statute for felony murder.

Oh ok. In adults when I think of felony murder I usually think of a robbery where a person is killed in the process. Didn't think about an elderly person and abuse also being a factor. I guess these laws differ from state to state, and not all states have the felony murder laws ? I know FL and TX have them, not sure about how many others.

 

[maryaok]

Duct tape on the face of a child is agg child abuse...and if the abuse leads to death it's felony murder. There are other factors that combine w/ death to equal murder as in robbery, etc...All murders are abuse, but if you shoot an adult it's murder, 1st degree, 2nd degree or manslaughter...there is no abuse plus death = murder in adults, like there is in the case of a child. Maybe I read your statement wrong, but I thought this was what you were referring to.

Yeah, you're right, it probably won't work, but if she did, if this is what had happened, surely it wouldn't be looked at the same way as purposesly trying to kill her. Not saying she's excused at all, she ought to be in jail forever. I'm just saying, I'd say it before I'd go to death row if I was her.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Yeah, you're right, it probably won't work, but if she did, if this is what had happened, surely it wouldn't be looked at the same way as purposesly trying to kill her. Not saying she's excused at all, she ought to be in jail forever. I'm just saying, I'd say it before I'd go to death row if I was her.

But if you put multiple layers of duct tape on a child there, I would think, wouldn't be another purpose but to smother the child to death. It's not like she thought she would just put it on for a minute and then take it off...seems pretty premeditated to me.

 

[Devon]

Duct tape on the face of a child is agg child abuse...and if the abuse leads to death it's felony murder. There are other factors that combine w/ death to equal murder as in robbery, etc...All murders are abuse, but if you shoot an adult it's murder, 1st degree, 2nd degree or manslaughter...there is no abuse plus death = murder in adults, like there is in the case of a child. Maybe I read your statement wrong, but I thought this was what you were referring to.

The problem is, which scenario is the state going to go with? To prove 1st degree murder they'd have to show that the tape was used to suffocate Caylee and kill her. If they want to prove felony murder they'd have to say that the tape was not applied with the intention of killing Caylee (which would be 1st degree murder) but the act of applying it to Caylee's face was aggravated child abuse and it subsequently lead to her death - so that's felony murder. One argument would contradict the other IMO.

 

[panthera]

Abuse of an elderly person or an adult that you are responsible for the care of (covers the disabled) can also be put in the same statute for felony murder.

I was also thinking that elder abuse would be included. Thanks!

 

[static]

Correct. For the tape to be associated with abuse, proof is needed that it went on while she was alive.

What about not reporting her missing for 31 days? That in itself is pure neglect, and considered child endangerment. Which I believe, would fall under the category of child abuse/neglect.

 

[impatientredhead]

Yeah, you're right, it probably won't work, but if she did, if this is what had happened, surely it wouldn't be looked at the same way as purposesly trying to kill her. Not saying she's excused at all, she ought to be in jail forever. I'm just saying, I'd say it before I'd go to death row if I was her.

It would have been looked at differently if she had said this on day two of the investigation. Before millions and millions of dollars in manhours were invested in trying to uncover her lies. It would have made a huge difference, but that ship has sailed.

She could say it now and the state would probably agree to a life sentence to save the state additional millions in trial and appeal costs. But she is not going to do that. The attention would go away then.

She figures she will either get acquitted (I can hear you giggling), or spend years in prison anyway. Spend life in prison as just another prisoner or spend the next decades as one of the few women on death row, with access to her attorney's for her appeals, and press coverage everytime something relevant to the case happens. Which one sounds like Casey to you?

 

[panthera]

I'd be curious to see the other tattoos also. Maybe they are noted on the booking sheet??

~Jai Yen

Probably are but I haven't looked at it.

 

[Searchfortruth]

The problem is, which scenario is the state going to go with? To prove 1st degree murder they'd have to show that the tape was used to suffocate Caylee and kill her. If they want to prove felony murder they'd have to say that the tape was not applied with the intention of killing Caylee (which would be 1st degree murder) but the act of applying it to Caylee's face was aggravated child abuse and it subsequently lead to her death - so that's felony murder. One argument would contradict the other IMO.

I'd guess that's something the state plans on revealing at trial. I am sure the SA has run up against this scenario before, pre meditated or felony murder...in FL is the punishment between the two that differant ?

 

[Devon]

What about not reporting her missing for 31 days? That in itself is pure neglect, and considered child endangerment. Which I believe, would fall under the category of child abuse/neglect.

But you can't be found guilty of neglecting or endangering a child when they are already dead.

 

[impatientredhead]

The problem is, which scenario is the state going to go with? To prove 1st degree murder they'd have to show that the tape was used to suffocate Caylee and kill her. If they want to prove felony murder they'd have to say that the tape was not applied with the intention of killing Caylee (which would be 1st degree murder) but the act of applying it to Caylee's face was aggravated child abuse and it subsequently lead to her death - so that's felony murder. One argument would contradict the other IMO.

Some states allow the juror to consider several statutes. IE instead of you have to come back with premeditated or an acquittal they can come back with premeditated, felony murder, manslaughter or acquittal.

The state is not going to claim they know what happened in the fine details. They will admit that only one person knows those details and she hasn't spoken on the topic since July 2008. The state has to prove that Caylee is dead and Casey is responsible for that death.

 

[impatientredhead]

I'd guess that's something the state plans on revealing at trial. I am sure the SA has run up against this scenario before, pre meditated or felony murder...in FL is the punishment between the two that differant ?

The punishment is identical life in prison without the possibility of parole or death penalty. That is why I am saying it doesn't matter which way they get there, it is the same outcome, capital offense.

 

[Wudge]

This scenario falls under the felony murder scenario, death during the commission of another felony; duct taping your child to shut them up is a felony.

If she was willing to say this is what happened she would stay off death row most likely, but the time to say this was a loooonnng time ago to make any real difference in her charges.

There is no proof she was duct taped while alive. Moreover and just for clarification, not all abuse is a felony.

 

[Wudge]

But you can't be found guilty of neglecting or endangering a child when they are already dead.

titcr

 

[Searchfortruth]

Thanks Impatient...I am going to defer to you from now on...I was getting in over my head there !

 

[impatientredhead]

There is no proof she was duct taped while alive. Moreover and just for clarification, not all abuse is a felony.

I have been quite specific in stating aggravated child abuse.
And there is no proof it was placed when she was dead.
If the duct tape was the only piece of evidence in this case I would agree with you.
But as you are well aware it is the totality of the evidence that will matter.

 

[static]

But you can't be found guilty of neglecting or endangering a child when they are already dead.

Right, but according to Casey she was very much alive at that time, supposedly doing this or that, telling her friends she was with the nanny, blah blah blah. This child has been kidnapped according to Casey and she doesn't report it>>???

 

[Devon]

I'd guess that's something the state plans on revealing at trial. I am sure the SA has run up against this scenario before, pre meditated or felony murder...in FL is the punishment between the two that differant ?

No, they're both capital crimes, but my point is that the duct tape seems to be the only evidence (so far revealed) that could possibly be used to show how Caylee may have died, but the way in which they'd have to use this evidence to prove felony murder would contradict any argument that it proves pre-meditated murder - which is what she is charged with.