4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

Lots of reports said a survey was used. And I'm not sure how if one was used, it wouldn't have been a survey of the public? I think the survey may have been done for both Lori and Chad at the same time.

Change of venue hearing in Daybell case: ‘The amount of attention has been overwhelming’

"So far in the trial, Daybell’s lawyer, John Prior, submitted a survey showing people’s leanings on the Daybell case."

"Prosecutor Rob Wood objected, stating the poll reviewed more counties than just Fremont and that it wasn’t conducted impartially. The judge overruled the objection and allowed the survey into evidence."

"The survey showed 82.4 percent believed Daybell and his wife were guilty, while only one person said they were innocent, and 3.4 percent said they were innocent until proven guilty. The witness, David Bryant, said there was about a 5.8 percent margin of error."

Anyway, I don't think commissioning a survey is rare when asking for a change of venue. It appears one was used here and in the other well-known case links I posted.
MOO
Just a quick add to previous discussion Re Daybells and survey. Admit I found it odd that I had misremembered what I had read so badly, so just rechecked my linked source. So, in his decision the Judge did not rely on any survey results and makes no mention of a survey in his reasons. This is why I assumed a survey wasn't used!

Your msm link shows that a survey was commissioned by the D in Chad Daybell's case but Judge struck it from evidence:

"Only 10.2 percent of respondents were actually from Fremont county, a total of 18 people.

After the witness testified that a poll of 18 people was insufficient to show public opinion, the judge ruled to strike the evidence from the hearing."

 
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So in your opinion, the defense expert is going to testify that BK never turned his phone off that night? And this expert will testify that he left his apartment before midnight?

This might be a hard sell for the defense, though, as you say, we don't know what meta data they have. According to the PCA, his phone was using cellular resources that provide coverage to his apartment at 2:42am. And at 2:47am the phone was using resources that provide coverage southeast of the apartment consistent with traveling south through Pullman, WA. This is also consistent with the movement of the white Elantra they believe is his on video. And at 2:47am the phone stopped reporting to the network (could it have traveled to somewhere too remote for signal so soon and it was not actually turned off at that point?).
JMO
My thoughts about predicting the defense case are that it's really a case about the limitations of cellular infrastructure.

Most cell towers can only handle about 60 voice calls at the same time for 4G, which was predominant in 2022.

When cell towers are at capacity, they shed cellular traffic (additional cellphones that come into range.) They do this by sending the new cellular traffic to the next closest cell tower. So, the user will still have connectivity, but usually fewer bars because they are further away from the cell tower they are actually using. When that happens information about which cell tower the phone was actually closest to can be misleading. If cellular traffic was high and the cell towers were at capacity BK's phone might have been being handed off by the tower he was closest to, meaning BK was not at home and then traveling South through Pullman at all. IMO, with all of the out-of-towners in Pullman and Moscow the defense might be describing this type of situation.

This map shows the 4 cell towers in Pullman:

IMO, IF BK was South and West of Pullman at Wawawai Park, it is likely his phone would access the tower in the upper left corner. BUT if that tower was at capacity, then which of the 3 other cell towers would a phone be handed off to? With all the extra people and cell phones in Pullman for Family Weekend, what if more than one cell tower was at capacity (too many users are trying to access it)? Then, it is possible that a phone could be handed from a cell tower that is at capacity to another tower that was almost at capacity and then be handed off by the second tower to another tower 5 minutes later due to the second tower reaching capacity. I'm not sure if I'm right or if something else impacted the cellular discovery, but it is an idea about what may have happened.

Let's look at what the defense has to say, which, IMO, appears to include the very timeframe you described between 2:42 and 2:47:

"Mr. Kohberger was out driving in the early morning hours of November 13, 2022; as he often did to hike and run and/or see the moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho including Wawawai Park."

"PARTIAL CORROBORATION
Mr. Kohberger intends to offer testimony of Sy Ray, CSLI expert, (cell tower, cell phone and other radio frequency, curricula vitae is attached) to show that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho on November 13, 2022; that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow-Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th, and thus could not be the vehicle captured on video along the Moscow-Pullman highway near Floyd’s Cannabis shop."

IMO, the above is a very powerful statement. It clearly indicates BK had already left Pullman and the vehicle seen on camera in Pullman was NOT BK's. Yet we have him supposedly pinging 2 towers at 2:42am and 2:47am. IMO, this expert must have used a combination of BK's cellular data AND meta data to determine he was not in Pullman.

The defense continues:

"Additional information as to Mr. Kohberger’s whereabouts as the early morning hours progressed, including additional analysis by Mr. Ray will be provided once the State provides discovery requested and now subject to an upcoming Motion to Compel . If not disclosed, Mr. Ray’s testimony will also reveal that critical exculpatory evidence, further corroborating Mr. Kohberger’s alibi, was either not preserved or has been withheld.""


IMO, in the Defendants Supplemental Response, the defense is stating that the car caught on camera in Pullman is NOT BK's car and that he was NOT in Pullman at but instead was Southwest of Pullman that night and therefore, nowhere near Moscow.

IMO, the defense will hold that the cell tower data as interpreted by MPD with some assist from the FBI CAST unit is incorrect AND they have exacting proof of where BK was - which would be his cell phone's meta data.

IMO, the prosecutor should be very concerned about this information. If I were in the prosecutor's position, I would immediately hire an independent cellular expert to review all cellular data and meta data in the discovery and determine if the information that the prosecutor has been given about cellular data and meta data is definitely correct.

All JMO.
 
All I can say is I don't care where his mobile device is/was/might have been. If you take that out of the equation, then any pictures of an Elantra could have been his. (Or not) He can't prove he had the mobile device the entire night anyway, nor can anyone prove he had it. It might be an indicator of oddness ( going off and on) but other than an extra circumstance, it can't exonerate him. Smoke and mirrors. JMO.
 
Just a quick add to previous discussion Re Daybells and survey. Admit I found it odd that I had misremembered what I had read so badly, so just rechecked my linked source. So, in his decision the Judge did not rely on any survey results and makes no mention of a survey in his reasons. This is why I assumed a survey wasn't used!

Your msm link shows that a survey was commissioned by the D in Chad Daybell's case but Judge struck it from evidence:

"Only 10.2 percent of respondents were actually from Fremont county, a total of 18 people.

After the witness testified that a poll of 18 people was insufficient to show public opinion, the judge ruled to strike the evidence from the hearing."

Thanks for the additional info. I had not looked into the details except I knew there WAS a survey done to support the Daybell change of venue motion. And as the link I posted I indicated, initially the judge admitted the survey results. But it is hard to argue 18 people could be representative of an entire county! (And a county that's over 20% more populous than Latah Co.)

A survey was also used to argue for a change of venue in the Elizabeth Smart case. (Trial was not moved despite the survey results. And trials usually are not moved.)

Change of venue arguments heard in Smart case

While the use of surveys to support a change of venue isn't rare (and usually doesn't attract much attention unlike BK's case given the dramatic emergency halt) survey usage clearly doesn't appeal to everyone posting here. But I didn't get the feeling in BK's case that such an approach was unheard of by the judge or even by the prosecution. And while some here have argued a sample of400 is too small to be able to generalize to the entire jury pool in Latah county, it's hard to argue more people should be surveyed while simultaneously arguing that just being surveyed causes the surveyed person to be "tainted" as a prospective juror!
MOO
 
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All I can say is I don't care where his mobile device is/was/might have been. If you take that out of the equation, then any pictures of an Elantra could have been his. (Or not) He can't prove he had the mobile device the entire night anyway, nor can anyone prove he had it. It might be an indicator of oddness ( going off and on) but other than an extra circumstance, it can't exonerate him. Smoke and mirrors. JMO.
If BK's cellphone's meta data shows he was Southwest of Pullman from before midnight on Nov. 12 to at least 5am on Nov. 13 and the meta data shows it was moving to various locations Southwest of Pullman which are miles apart, how can you explain how that happened unless BK was with his phone?
 
But as a lawyer, you have to tell him that this alibi will look ridiculous and will not help him in the least for his upcoming trial.
BK has no Alibi, this is the best (weakest) one they could come up with. I'm sure AT knows how ridiculous it sounds, but she had to provide something and BK may have even had a hand in coming up with it.

Perhaps they hope to dazzle and confuse the jury with the phone expert? I don't think it will help them at all with the other evidence the State has against BK.

I wish I knew what AT truly thinks of BK, not as a client, but as a skin wearing monster.

MOO
 
What is going to be interesting is to see historical phone data. Did BK typically have a habit of turning off his phone for a couple of hours when he went on his 'late night drives'?

How often and to where were these late night drives taken according to phone records?

The real phone experts will know exactly what was typical phone usage by BK for time period before the murders. If he wasn't in the habit of turning his phone off for hours, or was out driving that late at night for that amount of time, that is going to be proven by historical phone data.

If it changes on the very night and next day of the murders, also adding in all the other evidence the State has against BK and it's over for this degenerate.

MOO
 
I know the house was an ugly eye-sore and a reminder of a brutal crime, but I wish they kept it standing until the trial ended. Having a juror walk through a physical house feels much different than looking at a drawing or watching a video.
They couldn't walk through it because floors and walls had been removed.
 
What is going to be interesting is to see historical phone data. Did BK typically have a habit of turning off his phone for a couple of hours when he went on his 'late night drives'?

How often and to where were these late night drives taken according to phone records?

The real phone experts will know exactly what was typical phone usage by BK for time period before the murders. If he wasn't in the habit of turning his phone off for hours, or was out driving that late at night for that amount of time, that is going to be proven by historical phone data.

If it changes on the very night and next day of the murders, also adding in all the other evidence the State has against BK and it's over for this degenerate.

MOO

Exactly what I think. That there are all these excuses for why BK changed his phone setting and how normal this is but it might not be normal.

Phone records might show that this is the one and only time BK shut down his phone for a 2 hour period while he was in his car.
 
Many surveys used for jurors are actual surveys (as opposed to phone interviews, as appears to have happened in this case). Or, at least, the Defense used both open-ended interview questions and a survey.

Surveys, at least in formal research, have preset answers so that the researcher can compare answers across large numbers. That allows the researcher to determine from within the results how many outliers there may be.

When, instead, the survey includes conversation, that shades the research because not everyone had the same conversation.

When the survey actually gives information about the topic to the respondent (new information), then we may call it marketing research, but it is certainly not what I've seen done with jury surveys. Certainly a phone can be used, but typically the respondent is given a choice of set answers and then, at the end or at intervals in the survey, they can offer an opinion.

If the goal is to assess to what degree a potential juror has been influenced by media, if the survey itself has said information in it, that skews the results.

IMO.
 
Let's look at what the defense has to say, which, IMO, appears to include the very timeframe you described between 2:42 and 2:47:

"Mr. Kohberger was out driving in the early morning hours of November 13, 2022; as he often did to hike and run and/or see the moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho including Wawawai Park."

"PARTIAL CORROBORATION
Mr. Kohberger intends to offer testimony of Sy Ray, CSLI expert, (cell tower, cell phone and other radio frequency, curricula vitae is attached) to show that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho on November 13, 2022; that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow-Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th, and thus could not be the vehicle captured on video along the Moscow-Pullman highway near Floyd’s Cannabis shop."

IMO, the above is a very powerful statement. It clearly indicates BK had already left Pullman and the vehicle seen on camera in Pullman was NOT BK's. Yet we have him supposedly pinging 2 towers at 2:42am and 2:47am. IMO, this expert must have used a combination of BK's cellular data AND meta data to determine he was not in Pullman.

The defense continues:

"Additional information as to Mr. Kohberger’s whereabouts as the early morning hours progressed, including additional analysis by Mr. Ray will be provided once the State provides discovery requested and now subject to an upcoming Motion to Compel . If not disclosed, Mr. Ray’s testimony will also reveal that critical exculpatory evidence, further corroborating Mr. Kohberger’s alibi, was either not preserved or has been withheld.""


IMO, in the Defendants Supplemental Response, the defense is stating that the car caught on camera in Pullman is NOT BK's car and that he was NOT in Pullman at but instead was Southwest of Pullman that night and therefore, nowhere near Moscow.

IMO, the defense will hold that the cell tower data as interpreted by MPD with some assist from the FBI CAST unit is incorrect AND they have exacting proof of where BK was - which would be his cell phone's meta data.

IMO, the prosecutor should be very concerned about this information. If I were in the prosecutor's position, I would immediately hire an independent cellular expert to review all cellular data and meta data in the discovery and determine if the information that the prosecutor has been given about cellular data and meta data is definitely correct.

All JMO.
Snipped by me--okay, a couple of points.

I don't see anywhere in the alibi response that the defense tries to claim BK left his Pullman apartment before midnight. They say that he was out driving around in the early morning hours of November 13th--that's Sunday, after midnight.

Also, they are not even trying to claim in the alibi response that the phone pings and footage of the white Elantra at 2:42am and 2:47am at his apartment and in Pullman near his apartment aren't him.
What they DO say is that he left his apartment in the early morning hours of Sunday, November 13th, and went SOUTH of Pullman and WEST of Moscow, not EAST toward Moscow, which means that the footage captured at Floyd's Cannabis Shop could not be him and, by inference, the footage of the white Elantra without a front plate one mile from the crime scene would also not be him.

You said, "It clearly indicates BK had already left Pullman and the vehicle seen on camera in Pullman was NOT BK's. Yet we have him supposedly pinging 2 towers at 2:42am and 2:47am. IMO, this expert must have used a combination of BK's cellular data AND meta data to determine he was not in Pullman." but nowhere does the defense claim he left before midnight and the vehicle seen in Pullman was not BK. They only say he went south and west, not east, and the vehicle at Floyd's was not BK.
JMO
 
Snipped by me--okay, a couple of points.

I don't see anywhere in the alibi response that the defense tries to claim BK left his Pullman apartment before midnight. They say that he was out driving around in the early morning hours of November 13th--that's Sunday, after midnight.
You are looking at the second document in regards to BK's alibi. There was an earlier alibi response which is what I am referring to back. on August 3, 2023. I have already quoted directly from that document in this thread. BK's alibi has not changed. The more recent alibi document expands and builds on the August 3, 2023 alibi document. The first alibi document from August 3, 2023 clearly states he was driving from late on Nov. 12th through the early morning of Nov. 13th. I have already linked that document in this thread but here is the link and the direct quote from the Alibi response of August 3, 2023:

“Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022,” Taylor wrote. “He was out, driving during the late night and early morning hours of November 12-13, 2022.”
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/us/idaho-killings-kohberger-defense-alibi/index.html

Also, they are not even trying to claim in the alibi response that the phone pings and footage of the white Elantra at 2:42am and 2:47am at his apartment and in Pullman near his apartment aren't him.
I just explained in my previous post how the pings could be BK but could have been handed off from a tower that was closer to Wawawai Park. Please go read my previous post in this thread about cell tower capacity.
What they DO say is that he left his apartment in the early morning hours of Sunday, November 13th, and went SOUTH of Pullman and WEST of Moscow, not EAST toward Moscow, which means that the footage captured at Floyd's Cannabis Shop could not be him and, by inference, the footage of the white Elantra without a front plate one mile from the crime scene would also not be him.
Yes, I agree with this. That is what it says in the second alibi document. They also say he went to Wawawai Park. Wawawai Park is Southwest of Pullman AND Moscow. BUT it is NOT between Pullman and Moscow. It is Southwest of both cities but closer to Pullman. From BK's apartment Wawawai Park is 20 miles and it's 28.6 miles from Moscow.
 
Snipped by me--okay, a couple of points.

I don't see anywhere in the alibi response that the defense tries to claim BK left his Pullman apartment before midnight. They say that he was out driving around in the early morning hours of November 13th--that's Sunday, after midnight.

Also, they are not even trying to claim in the alibi response that the phone pings and footage of the white Elantra at 2:42am and 2:47am at his apartment and in Pullman near his apartment aren't him.
What they DO say is that he left his apartment in the early morning hours of Sunday, November 13th, and went SOUTH of Pullman and WEST of Moscow, not EAST toward Moscow, which means that the footage captured at Floyd's Cannabis Shop could not be him and, by inference, the footage of the white Elantra without a front plate one mile from the crime scene would also not be him.

You said, "It clearly indicates BK had already left Pullman and the vehicle seen on camera in Pullman was NOT BK's. Yet we have him supposedly pinging 2 towers at 2:42am and 2:47am. IMO, this expert must have used a combination of BK's cellular data AND meta data to determine he was not in Pullman." but nowhere does the defense claim he left before midnight and the vehicle seen in Pullman was not BK. They only say he went south and west, not east, and the vehicle at Floyd's was not BK.
JMO
To me Defense has slowly refined their responses to Alibi demand over time. The initial response was vague and ambiguous in the extreme imo (24th July 2023). The second response (early Aug 2023), which was actually in answer to a Motion to Compel by the state owing to D's previous vagueness, offered some possibilities in terms of supporting witnesses whilst remaining ambiguous as to when and where Kohberger supposedly was. And whilst 'late on the 12th' is stated it is certainly not claimed anywhere in that response that he went for one drive that night leaving his residence before midnight and not returning to the Pullman during his 'driving around''. Infact that document uses the plural 'drives' for the time in question. Imo it is deliberately vague and ambiguous and to me that makes sense if D is still trying to figure out which way to play it jmo. The main point being is that it is anything but clear.

If BK had his phone on during any 'driving around' in 'the late hours' of Nov 12th then imo it seems very likely that both D and P already know where that 'driving around' occurred. And the vaguaries of D's statement imo account for that likely fact jmo.

This latest update to the 'alibi' is a further refinement as far as I can read it. D has dropped any references to the 12th November and is now onto the 13th proper. There is still a lot of vagueness there though. Imo the language implies they are talking about a time frame prior to 4am, though typically it seems, no actual hours are named. Moo

24th July 2024

2nd August 2023

17th April 2024
 
@wendy44
As I mentioned in my previous reply to you on this topic, the claim of BK driving around prior to midnight is in the Defense's first alibi document, filed on 8/2/2023.
For the sake of clarity here is a screenshot of the relevant part:
View attachment 499544
My points addressed to Balthazar were all specifically addressed to the alibi response, which is what he was quoting from. The passage above is from last year when the defense filed an Objection to the State's Motion to Compel "Motive of Defense of Alibi". That was not the alibi response--they were objecting to filing one.

My reply to you was more in general that it doesn't really matter if he was out driving before midnight. It doesn't discount that he could have been at his apartment at 2:42am and moving away from his apartment at 2:47am. And when it came time to file the alibi response they didn't even claim it wasn't him.
 
You are looking at the second document in regards to BK's alibi. There was an earlier alibi response which is what I am referring to back. on August 3, 2023. I have already quoted directly from that document in this thread. BK's alibi has not changed. The more recent alibi document expands and builds on the August 3, 2023 alibi document. The first alibi document from August 3, 2023 clearly states he was driving from late on Nov. 12th through the early morning of Nov. 13th. I have already linked that document in this thread but here is the link and the direct quote from the Alibi response of August 3, 2023:

“Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022,” Taylor wrote. “He was out, driving during the late night and early morning hours of November 12-13, 2022.”
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/us/idaho-killings-kohberger-defense-alibi/index.html


I just explained in my previous post how the pings could be BK but could have been handed off from a tower that was closer to Wawawai Park. Please go read my previous post in this thread about cell tower capacity.

Yes, I agree with this. That is what it says in the second alibi document. They also say he went to Wawawai Park. Wawawai Park is Southwest of Pullman AND Moscow. BUT it is NOT between Pullman and Moscow. It is Southwest of both cities but closer to Pullman. From BK's apartment Wawawai Park is 20 miles and it's 28.6 miles from Moscow.
Your entire post referred to and quoted from the alibi response filed 17 April 2024. You quoted nothing from the Objection to the Motion to Compel. So I was looking at the document you referred to and quoted from and responding to the comments you made about that document.

You said, "It clearly indicates BK had already left Pullman and the vehicle seen on camera in Pullman was NOT BK's. Yet we have him supposedly pinging 2 towers at 2:42am and 2:47am. IMO, this expert must have used a combination of BK's cellular data AND meta data to determine he was not in Pullman."

That's not what the document you referred to and quoted from in that post said. The alibi response filed the 17th says he was driving around in the early hours of the 13th and does not dispute that the pings and footage at 2:42am and 2:47am in Pullman were BK. It only says he went south and west, not east toward Moscow. It doesn't even try to dispute the alleged footage with no license plate. Only the one in front of Floyd's.

I'm just looking plainly at what the defense says in their actual alibi response. They don't deny the pings and footage in Pullman are him. They don't deny the Indian Hills footage with the missing front plate is him. They do deny the footage in front of Floyd's was him because that's traveling east toward Moscow and he was traveling south and west. To read more into that is making a defense even the defense isn't making.
 
My thoughts about predicting the defense case are that it's really a case about the limitations of cellular infrastructure.

Most cell towers can only handle about 60 voice calls at the same time for 4G, which was predominant in 2022.

When cell towers are at capacity, they shed cellular traffic (additional cellphones that come into range.) They do this by sending the new cellular traffic to the next closest cell tower. So, the user will still have connectivity, but usually fewer bars because they are further away from the cell tower they are actually using. When that happens information about which cell tower the phone was actually closest to can be misleading. If cellular traffic was high and the cell towers were at capacity BK's phone might have been being handed off by the tower he was closest to, meaning BK was not at home and then traveling South through Pullman at all. IMO, with all of the out-of-towners in Pullman and Moscow the defense might be describing this type of situation.

This map shows the 4 cell towers in Pullman:

IMO, IF BK was South and West of Pullman at Wawawai Park, it is likely his phone would access the tower in the upper left corner. BUT if that tower was at capacity, then which of the 3 other cell towers would a phone be handed off to? With all the extra people and cell phones in Pullman for Family Weekend, what if more than one cell tower was at capacity (too many users are trying to access it)? Then, it is possible that a phone could be handed from a cell tower that is at capacity to another tower that was almost at capacity and then be handed off by the second tower to another tower 5 minutes later due to the second tower reaching capacity. I'm not sure if I'm right or if something else impacted the cellular discovery, but it is an idea about what may have happened.

Even with the increased crowds in the area with Parents' Weekend, I find it very improbable that at 2:47 a.m. the cellular traffic was so high that it was having to get handed off to different towers than usual. Especially considering that the people theoretically causing this extra cell traffic would be parents of college aged students. We're not really a group known for being active on cellular service at 2:47 a.m., especially on a weekend that involved travel, IMOO, IMHO, etc. While I'm of that age group and am often up until 1:30, I'm not at 2:45.
 
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