Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

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On that motion to dismiss statements, some are speculating RA's statement about nobody having borrowed RA's gun is what the D's trying to rid themselves of But at the same time, those speculating are wondering if it's something much bigger and undisclosed in that motion. I tend to towards RA having dropped a whopper if LE actually arrested him right then and there. RA saying at one point off the cuff that the gun wasn't lent out doesn't mean anything, there are lots of scenarios someone in that situation wouldn't have had time to consider. From motion: "13. After a few phone calls with State Police, finally on October 26th, Rick and Kathy were scheduled to arrive at the State Police Post in West Lafayette at 9 am to pick up their vehicle." Scheduled by whom? If pre-arranged, it makes a difference, but is there confirmation it indeed was set up by LE? In that motion, the D puts relatively little emphasis on RA's ensuing arrest. Why? It's definitely to their benefit to emphasize it. Possibly they don't want to do so because the D is excluding something smokin' hot that triggered the arrest from the discussion because it will be damaging to RA and will enter MSM.

"You’re gonna pay for what you’ve done to my wife. You want to (omitted) with me, (omitted) with me but you leave my wife out of this. (Omitted expletive). Leave me out of this." Right, that's RA speaking there, does Rambo sound like a shrinking violet there who's terrified of LE?? I know LE & P do screw up on major issues. The lost footage. No Miranda on the beginning of this video for the second interview. But I can't help but be incredibly suspicious there's way, way more to this than we know yet. I see this in an MSM source: "Allen’s attorneys say he was handcuffed and arrested hours later and are requesting that the court suppress all statements made by Allen in the interrogation on Oct. 26, 2022." Would love to know exactly where that arrest was made. Like exactly where and when. Is that on video?? Just generally, there may be something quite significant missing here. MOO.

 
On that motion to dismiss statements, some are speculating RA's statement about nobody having borrowed RA's gun is what the D's trying to rid themselves of But at the same time, those speculating are wondering if it's something much bigger and undisclosed in that motion. I tend to towards RA having dropped a whopper if LE actually arrested him right then and there. RA saying at one point off the cuff that the gun wasn't lent out doesn't mean anything, there are lots of scenarios someone in that situation wouldn't have had time to consider. From motion: "13. After a few phone calls with State Police, finally on October 26th, Rick and Kathy were scheduled to arrive at the State Police Post in West Lafayette at 9 am to pick up their vehicle." Scheduled by whom? If pre-arranged, it makes a difference, but is there confirmation it indeed was set up by LE? In that motion, the D puts relatively little emphasis on RA's ensuing arrest. Why? It's definitely to their benefit to emphasize it. Possibly they don't want to do so because the D is excluding something smokin' hot that triggered the arrest from the discussion because it will be damaging to RA and will enter MSM.

"You’re gonna pay for what you’ve done to my wife. You want to (omitted) with me, (omitted) with me but you leave my wife out of this. (Omitted expletive). Leave me out of this." Right, that's RA speaking there, does Rambo sound like a shrinking violet there who's terrified of LE?? I know LE & P do screw up on major issues. The lost footage. No Miranda on the beginning of this video for the second interview. But I can't help but be incredibly suspicious there's way, way more to this than we know yet. I see this in an MSM source: "Allen’s attorneys say he was handcuffed and arrested hours later and are requesting that the court suppress all statements made by Allen in the interrogation on Oct. 26, 2022." Would love to know exactly where that arrest was made. Like exactly where and when. Is that on video?? Just generally, there may be something quite significant missing here. MOO.


Agree on all points, LE had to have had something damning regarding RA.
 
Agree on all points, LE had to have had something damning regarding RA.
If LE has something bigger on RA than the stuff we already know such as the unspent round, then why does the D say he's innocent? Even Labrato said he'd seen the discovery, for he was lawyer for 79 days, and he feels RA is innocent.

JAN 31, 2024 - IN Supreme Court Oral Arguments
EXCLUSIVE: Richard Allen's former defense attorney doubts he'll get a fair trial
Bill Lebrato, sat < > texting Allen’s wife, KA.
“When I found out that the other attorneys were reinstated, I let her know right away..."

< > motion < > to transfer Allen out of prison and house him in a county jail where most pre-trial defendants are held, Lebrato’s team asserted < > Odinist theory of the crime had merit.

“There’s something to the fact that he’s arrested living in that small town that whole time, 24 days before the new sheriff election. < > “I mean, it’s not just coincidence.”

"< > it’s rare that you have such a high-profile case where you honestly think you have an innocent client < >"

Much more at the link
 
I mean, okay, that gun thing where he told LE he hasn't lent out the gun. I mean-- so what?? There are a million ways around that for the D. All someone needs is access to the house, then they have access to the gun. Anyone have a house key for emergencies? Do you leave a spare key hidden outside for emergencies? Ever hire a maid/professional cleaner? Ever go on vacation and leave the gun behind? Ever check the gun in somewhere for some reason? Ever go to a shooting range and leave the gun unattended? And does he use a shooting range? He might have left cycled cartridges behind. Where does he practice shooting? And I mean they're asking him spur of the moment, he might genuinely forget giving it to someone at some point. There's no way I think the D's going to all that trouble to get that "didn't lend the gun" info thrown out. There really might be something else, and it's not like the D's going to tell us in their press release. Excuse me. "Motion."
 
I've started to look into the case law about admissibility of SODDI evidence and it is very interesting - there are a number of authorities on point including Sterling vs State of Indiana. Short version, Sterling had not been allowed to introduce an alternate suspect at trial, despite that suspect actually being indicted for the attempted murder of the deceased some years earlier!

Sterling’s proposed theory of defense relating to another suspect stems from an instance involving Tommy Warren. In 2003, Dewayne was charged with the attempted murder of Warren; however, the case was ultimately dismissed. Sterling contends that Marie could testify to witnessing “some type of stare-off” between Warren and Dewayne in 2006, when Dewayne asked Warren,“do you got a problem with me? If you do, take it out, we’ll settle it in the streets, or take it out in the streets.” Tr.p. 19. Sterling also notes that an officer at the scene of Dewayne’s murder reported that he overheard a female say that Warren“did it.”Id.at17-19; Defendant’s Exs. A-D. To further promote the idea that Warren is a suspect, Sterling directs our attention to a single Crime Stoppers tip after Dewayne’s death that listed Warren as a suspect. The defense in this case subpoenaed Warren, and he refused to testify, citing his right not to incriminate himself under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution

The case is useful because it references other cases that go either way. Short version, a mere theory that invites speculation doesn't appear enough. Ditto statements, possible motive, 'beef' etc. You need evidence directly connecting the alternate suspect to the crime.

In sum, where, as here, there is no material evidence that the third party is connected to the crime, the trial court does not abuse its discretion in refusing to admit the proffered evidence. Lashbrook, 762 N.E.2d at 758.Here, Sterling fails to present material evidence that directly connects Warren to the crime,i nstead presenting us with unfounded and speculative information: an anonymous woman overhead saying Warren “did it” and one Crime Stoppers tip.


A case that went the other way was Joyner v. State, 678 N.E.2d 386, 389-90(Ind. 1997). In that case, the defendant successfully appealed the exclusion of SODDI evidence at trial.

The defendant, in his offer to prove, sought to present evidence of the following: Oral Bowens, a married man, was having an affair with Hernandez; Bowens worked at the same place as Hernandez and the defendant; Bowens had sexual relations with Hernandez the night of March 1; he had lied to his wife about where he was that evening and later told his wife that he had had an argument with Hernandez on March 2, the last day Hernandez was seen alive; and Bowens came in late to work the morning of March 3 and lied about his tardiness on his time card, which showed that he had come in on time.

Some evidence admitted at trial was consistent with the defendant's theory that the crime was committed by Bowens. It included expert testimony about an analysis of a hair sample found inside the plastic bag covering the victim's head which excluded the defendant as the donor of the hair, was inconclusive on whether the sample matched the victim, but indicated that there was a ninety-eight to ninety-nine percent probability match with Bowens's hair.

It's notable in that case, there was more tangible SODDI evidence. Namely the faking of alibi, and forensics.


I do wonder having read these cases, if at least some of the Odinist evidence would be excluded as speculative. For instance with BH, nothing connects him directly to the crime and he has an alibi - so as we saw in the Franks discussion of his alibi, the jury would be invited to speculate that he was somehow nevertheless involved. It seems that the Prosecution could file a motion in limine to exclude some or all of the Odinist suspects.

As an alternative, I wonder if the defence might focus on a botched investigation theory

02c

ETA: fixing quotes and general gardening
 
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Question: Did they actually arrest him/RA at the end of the October 26th interrogation? That's the second interview. It looks like yes (but this is per the D, I can't find this confirmed elsewhere, at least yet).

Here's why I'm freaked out by that. Both of the Allens went there to pick up the vehicle, right? And I am guessing this was not pre-arranged by the police. And the wife's waiting in the lobby. This would expect me to think (?) the police were not originally planning on arresting him. Not sure, though, but I would guess so. This makes me wonder if he made some whopper of a statement in that interview/interrogation. (researching)
I wondered, why RA was accompanied by his wife, when he had this "meeting" on Oct 26th. But if LE planned to arrest him at that point, it makes sense. After all, someone had to drive the car home; therefore KA was invited probably. Whether RA became suspicious and trembled internally, we won't learn of, I think.
 
I wondered, why RA was accompanied by his wife, when he had this "meeting" on Oct 26th. But if LE planned to arrest him at that point, it makes sense. After all, someone had to drive the car home; therefore KA was invited probably. Whether RA became suspicious and trembled internally, we won't learn of, I think.
It was not supposed to be a "meeting." They went together to pick up his car, which LE had taken during the search of his property. Holeman turned it into a meeting.

He did become suspicious part way through; I have no idea if he trembled internally.
 
I've started to look into the case law about admissibility of SODDI evidence and it is very interesting - there are a number of authorities on point including Sterling vs State of Indiana. Short version, Sterling had not been allowed to introduce an alternate suspect at trial, despite that suspect actually being indicted for the attempted murder of the deceased some years earlier!



The case is useful because it references other cases that go either way. Short version, a mere theory that invites speculation doesn't appear enough. Ditto statements, possible motive, 'beef' etc. You need evidence directly connecting the alternate suspect to the crime.




A case that went the other way was Joyner v. State, 678 N.E.2d 386, 389-90(Ind. 1997). In that case, the defendant successfully appealed the exclusion of SODDI evidence at trial.



It's notable in that case, there was more tangible SODDI evidence. Namely the faking of alibi, and forensics.


I do wonder having read these cases, if at least some of the Odinist evidence would be excluded as speculative. For instance with BH, nothing connects him directly to the crime and he has an alibi - so as we saw in the Franks discussion of his alibi, the jury would be invited to speculate that he was somehow nevertheless involved. It seems that the Prosecution could file a motion in limine to exclude some or all of the Odinist suspects.

As an alternative, I wonder if the defence might focus on a botched investigation theory

02c

ETA: fixing quotes and general gardening
Great articles.
Every piece of Odinist theory will be excluded. I anticipate them requesting a continuance so they can work on the real case with their client.
 
You're assuming LE cleared them, right. I'm assuming they cleared RA after he tipped himself in. In reality does LE ever really clear anyone?
Maybe not officially cleared since investigation was ongoing. I would say they were properly investigated and it led to nothing viable to either obtain a search warrant to continue investigating, or nothing substantial to arrest them.
They were investigated better than RA since he self reported at the grocery store and then went back to blending in.

The transcript from Motion to Dismiss on 3/18 gives insight on how they looked into the Odinist Theory.
 
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Not having analyzed this much, for me it seems like a botched kidnap attempt - to some nearby barn - and it seems likely ppl much younger than RA are involved.

Not saying he isn’t involved but something about this scene doesn’t seem right. If RA did this blatant mad deed on his own, he would have to be psychotic and he doesn’t seem to have been out of it right after the murders.

Also ”guys, down the hill” doesn’t sound commanding but rather relaxed and friendly - like down the hill is where my ponies are that you wanted to see. Like a ruse.
 
Also ”guys, down the hill” doesn’t sound commanding but rather relaxed and friendly - like down the hill is where my ponies are that you wanted to see. Like a ruse.
Snipped this part. I never thought it sounded commanding just thick with lust or excitement. Like the killer was “in character” for the moment.
 
You're assuming LE cleared them, right. I'm assuming they cleared RA after he tipped himself in. In reality does LE ever really clear anyone?
I think they do with solid alibis. RA's report got overlooked because when a written report was put into the system it was put in with his last name listed as his street name. I know a lot of people may find that hard to believe but I think the fact that his name was Richard Allen may have been confused with Richard Allan, his last name looking like a middle name and street stuck in for his last name. I'm sure here were a mountain of tips and interview reports that came into multiple LE teams assembled that needed to be data processed. It would be interesting to see what that report from the CO looks like.

Mistakes happen all the time in transposing things. My LE Dad used to say, "Garbage in, garbage out." AJMO
 
I've started to look into the case law about admissibility of SODDI evidence and it is very interesting - there are a number of authorities on point including Sterling vs State of Indiana. Short version, Sterling had not been allowed to introduce an alternate suspect at trial, despite that suspect actually being indicted for the attempted murder of the deceased some years earlier!



The case is useful because it references other cases that go either way. Short version, a mere theory that invites speculation doesn't appear enough. Ditto statements, possible motive, 'beef' etc. You need evidence directly connecting the alternate suspect to the crime.




A case that went the other way was Joyner v. State, 678 N.E.2d 386, 389-90(Ind. 1997). In that case, the defendant successfully appealed the exclusion of SODDI evidence at trial.



It's notable in that case, there was more tangible SODDI evidence. Namely the faking of alibi, and forensics.


I do wonder having read these cases, if at least some of the Odinist evidence would be excluded as speculative. For instance with BH, nothing connects him directly to the crime and he has an alibi - so as we saw in the Franks discussion of his alibi, the jury would be invited to speculate that he was somehow nevertheless involved. It seems that the Prosecution could file a motion in limine to exclude some or all of the Odinist suspects.

As an alternative, I wonder if the defence might focus on a botched investigation theory

02c

ETA: fixing quotes and general gardening

The prosecutors did an episode about the "some other dude it" defense a few days ago. They read Indiana cases and concluded that there is a high probability that the Odinism defense will not be allowed to be presented at trial.

The botched investigation theory make more sense for me. I think they have the right man but the investigation was a mess. If not, RA sould have been arrested in the first weeks after the crime, IMO.


The last filing of the D seems to have merit but I'm waiting for P's response, should be interesting. Also it seems the unspent round was really found on 14 february, 2017. I know Holemand lied and can lie but the D call out when he lied in that interrogation and they didn't say anything about that be a lie. I think they would say it, especially this D.
 
RA's report got overlooked because when a written report was put into the system it was put in with his last name listed as his street name.
I doubt there was any system set up for Dulin's report to get misfiled into at the time he wrote it. We've been told that it happened outside a grocery store. Why? All those taped interviews that were lost, yet none of them was RA because no one deemed him worthy of a sit-down interview. For five years. And suddenly he's the guy? What changed? Dulin knew all along that this report existed. And he spoke with no one about it, just set it aside, no further inquiry? Something's not adding up for me.
 
Not having analyzed this much, for me it seems like a botched kidnap attempt - to some nearby barn - and it seems likely ppl much younger than RA are involved.

Not saying he isn’t involved but something about this scene doesn’t seem right. If RA did this blatant mad deed on his own, he would have to be psychotic and he doesn’t seem to have been out of it right after the murders.

Also ”guys, down the hill” doesn’t sound commanding but rather relaxed and friendly - like down the hill is where my ponies are that you wanted to see. Like a ruse.
To me it sounds calm, just as unexcited as RA always is looking. ;)
 
I doubt there was any system set up for Dulin's report to get misfiled into at the time he wrote it. We've been told that it happened outside a grocery store. Why? All those taped interviews that were lost, yet none of them was RA because no one deemed him worthy of a sit-down interview. For five years. And suddenly he's the guy? What changed? Dulin knew all along that this report existed. And he spoke with no one about it, just set it aside, no further inquiry? Something's not adding up for me.
bbm
If it weren't sad, it would be just grotesque. One could almost say, the interviews were lost for nothing. But I suspect, there was another person interviewed, who was the reason, the interviews were lost. MOO

Does someone here notice, when exactly it became known within LE, that the recordings got lost?
 
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Not having analyzed this much, for me it seems like a botched kidnap attempt - to some nearby barn - and it seems likely ppl much younger than RA are involved.

Not saying he isn’t involved but something about this scene doesn’t seem right. If RA did this blatant mad deed on his own, he would have to be psychotic and he doesn’t seem to have been out of it right after the murders.

Also ”guys, down the hill” doesn’t sound commanding but rather relaxed and friendly - like down the hill is where my ponies are that you wanted to see. Like a ruse.


Zero indication that is the case and let’s say by some miracle that is the case then RA kidnapped them?

Because he is on that bridge and platform 1 moments before the girls go across as a witness can place him there and he has also placed himself on platform one.

So then he would still be guilty of being involved as he took them off that bridge with a gun held on them.

Moo-Moo
 
Because he is on that bridge and platform 1 moments before the girls go across as a witness can place him there and he has also placed himself on platform one.
If platform one is at the north end of the bridge and the girls walked past him, wouldn't he appear in the snapchat photo of Abby? Maybe he walked out to the first platform, then headed back and passed them on the trail, got a bad idea, turned and stalked. Ugh
 
I doubt there was any system set up for Dulin's report to get misfiled into at the time he wrote it. We've been told that it happened outside a grocery store. Why? All those taped interviews that were lost, yet none of them was RA because no one deemed him worthy of a sit-down interview. For five years. And suddenly he's the guy? What changed? Dulin knew all along that this report existed. And he spoke with no one about it, just set it aside, no further inquiry? Something's not adding up for me.
It was a written report, from my understanding. Weren't all these tips and reports put into an FBI computer software system? So the last name Allen wasn't showing up in the database. That's how I was understanding what happens. If the CO ever tried to follow up with anyone is still a mystery I've long wondered about.
 
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