Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[vinayd]

I can't remember when the FBI got involved but I don't believe it was right away. I don't think local police would start using the Orion until FBI stepped in. Maybe a team had to manually enter the handwritten tips.
As far as when it was known footage was lost, I feel like we didn't know that in full until recently but it was speculated. Someone here will know for sure.

ETA: looks like they were there pronto on 2/14/2017

Here's a timeline of major developments in the Delphi murders case

 

[girlhasnoname]

Not having analyzed this much, for me it seems like a botched kidnap attempt - to some nearby barn - and it seems likely ppl much younger than RA are involved.

Not saying he isn’t involved but something about this scene doesn’t seem right. If RA did this blatant mad deed on his own, he would have to be psychotic and he doesn’t seem to have been out of it right after the murders.

Also ”guys, down the hill” doesn’t sound commanding but rather relaxed and friendly - like down the hill is where my ponies are that you wanted to see. Like a ruse.

I don't think we know that RA would have had to been psychotic at the time..maybe he was fulfilling a lifetime fantasy and he obviously came prepared. Scary thought.

We also don't know how he reacted right after the murders because the D, with all their theories and accusations, have never come out and said where RA was that day or provided him with any alibi during that time. If RA had a solid, provable alibi he wouldn't still be sitting in the DOC awaiting trial.

If someone is pointing a loaded gun at you it really wouldn't warrant raised voices or yelling, they would have complied like the innocent lambs they were.

All speculation on my part.

 

[sunshineray]

I doubt there was any system set up for Dulin's report to get misfiled into at the time he wrote it. We've been told that it happened outside a grocery store. Why? All those taped interviews that were lost, yet none of them was RA because no one deemed him worthy of a sit-down interview. For five years. And suddenly he's the guy? What changed? Dulin knew all along that this report existed. And he spoke with no one about it, just set it aside, no further inquiry? Something's not adding up for me.

Also early on I 'm sure LE was looking into people who had records first, people who wouldn't come forward. The ones like RA who did and had no record, worked in the community, were interviewed but maybe not on top priority for follow up, early on. The proverbial "one" that fell through the cracks. I've wondered if that CO did ask about the follow up and was just pooh pooh-ed away by someone, stressed and overworked or he never inquired thinking it was checked out?

 

[Salah11]

If platform one is at the north end of the bridge and the girls walked past him, wouldn't he appear in the snapchat photo of Abby? Maybe he walked out to the first platform, then headed back and passed them on the trail, got a bad idea, turned and stalked. Ugh

He said he walked back off the bridge didn’t he to sit on a bench?

I Believe he made sure the coast was clear before he stalked them across it. So he let them get onto the bridge went back to check the path was clear and then stalked them across it.

Moooo

 

[FrostedGlass]

I doubt there was any system set up for Dulin's report to get misfiled into at the time he wrote it. We've been told that it happened outside a grocery store. Why? All those taped interviews that were lost, yet none of them was RA because no one deemed him worthy of a sit-down interview. For five years. And suddenly he's the guy? What changed? Dulin knew all along that this report existed. And he spoke with no one about it, just set it aside, no further inquiry? Something's not adding up for me.

I guess I always wanted to give DD the benefit of the doubt. I found it hard to believe that he was at the press conference a week or so later and that didn't even jog his memory.

This was just a bit vague: did DD find the tip narrative in ORION and give it to DL or was the tip narrative taken by DD?

On September21,2022, Detective Liggett was provided a tip narrative from ORION DIN-C000074-01 to review. It was from DNR Lieutenant Dan Dulin.

After researching ORION, I ended up finding it hard to believe that the tip was sitting there all the time and ORION didn't spit it out to multiple sources. No matter how one looks at it, the whole thing is unbelievable. MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wondered, why RA was accompanied by his wife, when he had this "meeting" on Oct 26th. But if LE planned to arrest him at that point, it makes sense. After all, someone had to drive the car home; therefore KA was invited probably. Whether RA became suspicious and trembled internally, we won't learn of, I think.

KA was present for the Oct 13th interview. I think LE used the ruse of RA getting his car on the 26th in order to get him back to the police station safely for a 'few more questions' after more information came to light after the first interview.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

To me it sounds calm, just as unexcited as RA always is looking.

To me the "down the hill" sounds chilling and we know the girls heard it while seeing a gun, most likely pointed at them </3

 

[vinayd]

Do we believe Dan Dullin is on the state witness list? Recalling the video posted where NM was asking for a raise for his secretary... he said then he anticipated 100s of witnesses? I think we will finally hear how his tip was overlooked.

 

[girlhasnoname]

You're assuming LE cleared them, right. I'm assuming they cleared RA after he tipped himself in. In reality does LE ever really clear anyone?

Yes, LE do really clear people all the time. That is how cases are solved.

DD had noted to follow up on the 3 girls and had the phone MEID number. Something raised a question IMO. This paper interview could have been handed off to LE by DD and he thought it was followed up on. I don't think the FBI database was up and running at that time. (The day after the murders)

Big mistake here on LE part, I admit it. I can only guess it was pure chaos and pandemonium going on at that time, but it is still not an excuse.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I guess I always wanted to give DD the benefit of the doubt. I found it hard to believe that he was at the press conference a week or so later and that didn't even jog his memory.

This was just a bit vague: did DD find the tip narrative in ORION and give it to DL or was the tip narrative taken by DD?



After researching ORION, I ended up finding it hard to believe that the tip was sitting there all the time and ORION didn't spit it out to multiple sources. No matter how one looks at it, the whole thing is unbelievable. MOO

With the last name of "Whiteman" listed, not Allen...not so unbelievable to me

 

[layer]

To me the "down the hill" sounds chilling and we know the girls heard it while seeing a gun, most likely pointed at them </3

This. Frankly it just creeps me the hell out. I won't listen to it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I mean, okay, that gun thing where he told LE he hasn't lent out the gun. I mean-- so what?? There are a million ways around that for the D. All someone needs is access to the house, then they have access to the gun. Anyone have a house key for emergencies? Do you leave a spare key hidden outside for emergencies? Ever hire a maid/professional cleaner? Ever go on vacation and leave the gun behind? Ever check the gun in somewhere for some reason? Ever go to a shooting range and leave the gun unattended? And does he use a shooting range? He might have left cycled cartridges behind. Where does he practice shooting? And I mean they're asking him spur of the moment, he might genuinely forget giving it to someone at some point. There's no way I think the D's going to all that trouble to get that "didn't lend the gun" info thrown out. There really might be something else, and it's not like the D's going to tell us in their press release. Excuse me. "Motion."

True but RA stated emphatically that he owned the gun, had never loaned it out to anyone, did not know RL, had never been on his property. He locked himself tight right there IMO.

 

[vinayd]

True but RA stated emphatically that he owned the gun, had never loaned it out to anyone, did not know RL, had never been on his property. He locked himself tight right there IMO.

Easy to be adamant about your gun when you know it was a knife used.

 

[rebelchild]

If LE has something bigger on RA than the stuff we already know such as the unspent round, then why does the D say he's innocent? Even Labrato said he'd seen the discovery, for he was lawyer for 79 days, and he feels RA is innocent.

SBM for focus. Isn't this pretty common for defense attorneys when they have a client that has pleaded not guilty? I follow a lot of these cases and I can't think of one attorney (that I have seen) admit to their client being guilty. What kind of representation would that be? I'm just trying to understand this argument. IMO they are saying what every other D attorney says when they step in front of the media. I wouldn't expect anything different from R & B.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The prosecutors did an episode about the "some other dude it" defense a few days ago. They read Indiana cases and concluded that there is a high probability that the Odinism defense will not be allowed to be presented at trial.

The botched investigation theory make more sense for me. I think they have the right man but the investigation was a mess. If not, RA sould have been arrested in the first weeks after the crime, IMO.


The last filing of the D seems to have merit but I'm waiting for P's response, should be interesting. Also it seems the unspent round was really found on 14 february, 2017. I know Holemand lied and can lie but the D call out when he lied in that interrogation and they didn't say anything about that be a lie. I think they would say it, especially this D.

IMO the fact defense did not call out the bullet discovery date makes me feel pretty confident it was found on 2/14.
This leads me to wonder why BMc went on a news broadcast and alluded to it being found later.
JMO

 

[vinayd]

SBM for focus. Isn't this pretty common for defense attorneys when they have a client that has pleaded not guilty? I follow a lot of these cases and I can't think of one attorney (that I have seen) admit to their client being guilty. What kind of representation would that be? I'm just trying to understand this argument. IMO they are saying what every other D attorney says when they step in front of the media. I wouldn't expect anything different from R & B.

Someone posted an article where Lebrato walked back that statement.
Not to mention we know they didn’t look at all the discovery in the month or two they were on the case. Baldwin and Rozzi haven’t even looked at everything.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I doubt it. Even that guy at JC's bar that had nothing but nice things to say about RA didn't seem like he had any kind of feeling about the arrest other than surprise. Maybe wife & lawyers? Certainly no one I've seen here or IRL has expressed anything resembling allegiance, let alone blind allegiance, to some guy they never met that's accused of the most evil things imaginable.

Looking at the evidence that we do know so far from the State (I chose to discount the majority of the FM), it would need to be allegiance or a complete discounting of the totality of facts. RA must be the most unlucky guy in the entire world for all of the things that we do know, even at this point, not to indicate his involvement in these murders.

Plus killers don't show their true nature to their family, coworkers, friends, or pool hall buddies. Look at Ted Bundy, he had one of the most prolific true crime writers completely buffaloed and they worked together side by side at a suicide prevention hotline. It HAPPENS all the time.

Throw in some Odin ritualistic sacrifice, satanic panic and you're golden.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't think we know that RA would have had to been psychotic at the time..maybe he was fulfilling a lifetime fantasy and he obviously came prepared. Scary thought.

We also don't know how he reacted right after the murders because the D, with all their theories and accusations, have never come out and said where RA was that day or provided him with any alibi during that time. If RA had a solid, provable alibi he wouldn't still be sitting in the DOC awaiting trial.

If someone is pointing a loaded gun at you it really wouldn't warrant raised voices or yelling, they would have complied like the innocent lambs they were.

All speculation on my part.

Even if he has an alibi, do you think they would just dismiss the case against him?
The D has Holeman on tape saying this quote below. Remember, he said that with all the PCA info in his file. "Guilty of something"

Jerry Holeman: You’re guilty of something. You’re
guilty and I know it and I’m gonna
(naughty word) prove it.

Page 11

2024 4/15 suppress 2nd statement .pdf

drive.google.com

 

[mrjitty]

The prosecutors did an episode about the "some other dude it" defense a few days ago. They read Indiana cases and concluded that there is a high probability that the Odinism defense will not be allowed to be presented at trial.

The botched investigation theory make more sense for me. I think they have the right man but the investigation was a mess. If not, RA sould have been arrested in the first weeks after the crime, IMO.

There's case law on using the botched investigation as opposed to SODDI - i need to dig in to it.

The last filing of the D seems to have merit but I'm waiting for P's response, should be interesting. Also it seems the unspent round was really found on 14 february, 2017. I know Holemand lied and can lie but the D call out when he lied in that interrogation and they didn't say anything about that be a lie. I think they would say it, especially this D.

Good catch!

 

[layer]

This paper interview could have been handed off to LE by DD and he thought it was followed up on. I don't think the FBI database was up and running at that time. (The day after the murders)

My understanding is that Dulin is LE. He carries a gun. He investigates crime. He arrests people. The defense certainly refers to him that way. I need to know several things:
Who initiated this meeting outside the grocery store?
In what capacity was DD working when he made this report?
Was he just chipping in or was he officially assigned as part of the investiagtion?
Who did he answer to?
Who was in charge at that time?
Did RA offer DD his cell phone for the MEID or was it attained by other means?
Where was the report physically located before it was (mis)filed into the FBi system?
When was it entered into that database?
Is there any record of any attempt to follow it up before it got filed away?
Where were all the leads and tips being congregated and dispersed for further investigation?
How many reports of other potential witnesses and suspects were never followed up on before being filed away?
Did DD personally do any followup, discuss it with anyone at the time, or over the next five years?
I have many more but I need java...