Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[FrostedGlass]

Murders happen thousands of times a year, why does any killer do these things? There is no logic or explanation that a normal brain can comprehend when trying to make sense of brutal crimes like these. I believe it was sexually motivated even though there were no signs of physical SA. He forced them to undress, that is a SA in itself.

I think JH and all of LE, ISP and FBI were deeply emotionally invested in solving this crime partly because they saw the carnage of the CS up close and personal. I'm sure it took a toll on all of them. It has me and I refused to read the salacious details outlined in the FM by the D in that section. That was exploitive and unnecessary from the D and must have been horrendous for the families to read.

JMO

We can't be sure of what the families choose to do or how much they want to know.
Maybe, like you, they chose not to read it.
One thing for sure, everything that comes out in the trial will be horrid for them.

 

[girlhasnoname]

That just struck me kind of funny.
MOO
He lived in Delphi for many years and Delphi has a population of a couple thousand people and he worked at the only drugstore in town and ate at McDonalds and parked his car within sight of police station and drank beer at the local bar and sat out in front of his house after work. He did all of this on a regular basis.

No way under the sun was he attempting to hide by changing his appearance.

Glad I'm a funny Ostrich FG.

I've seen Oct 2016 pics of RA that look nothing like his arrest photos. Substantial weight gain, hair gone from short reddish brown to shaved and a neatly trimmed goatee that became a foot long goatee. Hiding in plain sight is the very definition of a good ole' local CVS Manager, Pool playing, beer drinking guy that everyone knows. It's been said he was more of a loner and quiet type, so he wasn't out there being obviously suspicious.

Wouldn't it have been much more suspicious if he'd left his paid for home, long time job and disappeared into the unknown after he'd admitted to being at the the trails?

IMO

 

[sunshineray]

It can happen, especially if you rack the pistol. It has been covered extensively here way back when the PCA was first released. We had some gun aficionados explain it. I am not one of those myself.

JMO

And just in the frame of mind he must have been in...just speculation. If he's got two highly emotional and scared beyond belief girls to control (I'm thinking when they're disrobing), it's broad daylight, he knows others are out and about that day on the trails. He wants them to do NOW what he wants them to do, just like on the bridge at the start of the abduction he racks the gun for effect. They had to be terrified and it showed. His mind is racing to the next step, the next step, what's next, is anybody around? I think in all that, VERY easy to not remember the racked bullet ejected the one before. Even if at the end of the physical murders and the branches, IF his mind all of a sudden focused on, dang I racked a bullet, one must have come out and fell somewhere, where was I standing when I did that? Look at all these leaves! Libby's phone may be ringing or her Dad is calling out. All he's thinking is I gotta get out of here and I didn't shoot my gun, it ought to be ok. Like I said, just speculation but not far-fetched considering all that was the situation.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Are you thinking the girls saw different men, not all the same guy? Or that they all saw one guy, and he may not have been BG?

I don’t question the timeline because I do not buy into the theory that LE reverse engineered evidence to fit a targeted suspect. If that makes me a poor juror, defense would catch that during voir dire and I’d be back here at the lunch table with all of you during the trial. Or maybe banished to another table with my snoopy lunchbox. All alone.

Oh no, of course I'd be there happily right along with you watching the State put their case forward.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I recall one witness did describe him as her height, which was short. Also, the BG photo was released quickly, and likely prior to full height analysis. But I get your point. It’s baffling that science for decades has been able to accurately predict precisely where and exactly when the sun will be eclipsed by the moon, but they can’t get a guy’s height and weight nailed down using modern technology.

LE knows exactly how tall RA is. They haven't corrected the information publicly, but I can almost guarantee you that will know exactly how tall RA come trial time.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Glad I'm a funny Ostrich FG.

I've seen Oct 2016 pics of RA that look nothing like his arrest photos. Substantial weight gain, hair gone from short reddish brown to shaved and a neatly trimmed goatee that became a foot long goatee. Hiding in plain sight is the very definition of a good ole' local CVS Manager, Pool playing, beer drinking guy that everyone knows. It's been said he was more of a loner and quiet type, so he wasn't out there being obviously suspicious.

Wouldn't it have been much more suspicious if he'd left his paid for home, long time job and disappeared into the unknown after he'd admitted to being at the the trails?

IMO

I openly admitted that I'm an ostrich.

A person can change a lot in 6 years without it being something nefarious.
The point I was trying to make is his changes happened gradually and people saw them in real time.

If he had left looking like he did in 2016 and then came back looking like he did in 2022, then I could see where he might be trying to disguise himself.

For the record, his wife said he kept it very short since being in the National Guard.
I don't recall seeing the pictures from 2016 that you refer to. I can't even pinpoint the date he started growing his beard out.

 

[sunshineray]

Murders happen thousands of times a year, why does any killer do these things? There is no logic or explanation that a normal brain can comprehend when trying to make sense of brutal crimes like these. I believe it was sexually motivated even though there were no signs of physical SA. He forced them to undress, that is a SA in itself.

I think JH and all of LE, ISP and FBI were deeply emotionally invested in solving this crime partly because they saw the carnage of the CS up close and personal. I'm sure it took a toll on all of them. It has me and I refused to read the salacious details outlined in the FM by the D in that section. That was exploitive and unnecessary from the D and must have been horrendous for the families to read.

JMO

Oh I agree is was a sexual assault. I'm just trying to think like JH sounded, to me, in that snippet. He'd mentioned what all this would do to his wife and family, think of them. Then mentions (paraphrasing) wtf happened, will never know what happened [if you don't tell us, we won't ever know exactly why you did what you did]. Cops are people too, they have daughters, granddaughters, nieces, they have emotions.They come out even when they try to keep a lid on them, it happens. I could see JH being very frustrated and upset...human. Maybe we'll get to read the whole interview some day and I'll be totally way off.

 

[Justice101]

No, it's the totality of evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal trial. Each piece that we know of (and we don't know all yet) is one brick in the wall. RA has bricked himself in IMO.

Agree with layer.

It is hard to find 100.000000% REAL PROOF in anything. DNA is about it. Even video you can say, that looks like me, but it is NOT me. Not proof.

They seem to have enough (that we know of) to paint the picture with compounded and layered evidence. What are they going to use from his house? His phone(s)?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Oh I agree is was a sexual assault. I'm just trying to think like JH sounded, to me, in that snippet. He'd mentioned what all this would do to his wife and family, think of them. Then mentions (paraphrasing) wtf happened, will never know what happened [if you don't tell us, we won't ever know exactly why you did what you did]. Cops are people too, they have daughters, granddaughters, nieces, they have emotions.They come out even when they try to keep a lid on them, it happens. I could see JH being very frustrated and upset...human. Maybe we'll get to read the whole interview some day and I'll be totally way off.

Totally agree SSR, I think you're right on track. JH wanted RA to confess, he wanted to know why IMO. Can you imagine the emotional toll of investigating this atrocious crime for so long?

We can hope to read or see the interview. BTW, I'm still a firm believer in Hope. LOL

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agree with layer.

It is hard to find 100.000000% REAL PROOF in anything. DNA is about it. Even video you can say, that looks like me, but it is NOT me. Not proof.

They seem to have enough (that we know of) to paint the picture with compounded and layered evidence. What are they going to use from his house? His phone(s)?

Or perhaps some type of trophy taken from the CS, or something found on his numerous phones or hard drives, thumb drives, etc.

moo

 

[mrjitty]

RBBM - to focus.
IMO, youtubers excel at this - focus on minute detail. From which they then build various unsupported PCA-adjacent rabbit holes, or even castle.

I'm counting on being gobsmacked at trial.

Whats unusual to me is not to have a prelim at all. So we only have the bones of the case. Even with a prelim, the detail at trial can obviously make all the difference.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I really think FBI experts have this measuring thing down. If we can find the first FBI notices/ posters ... with the height ranges ... that's what the FBI experts determined, IMO.
The FBI threw resources and experts at Delphi; they were not messing around early weeks and months. JMHO

I believe the question is why did this change happen?

The request to remove the information came from the Indiana State Police. It released the following statement to 13News:

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi murders

The flier includes images of Libby German and Abby Williams, along with an image of the suspect from German's phone and a sketch.

www.wthr.com

The original:

FBI launches digital billboard campaign in search for killer of Delphi teens

DELPHI, Ind. — As investigators work to solve the murders of two teenagers in Delphi and a call center fields hundreds of tips, a billboard campaign is another tool being used in the investigation.…

fox59.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I believe the question is why did this change happen?

The request to remove the information came from the Indiana State Police. It released the following statement to 13News:

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi murders

The flier includes images of Libby German and Abby Williams, along with an image of the suspect from German's phone and a sketch.

www.wthr.com

The original:
View attachment 498143

FBI launches digital billboard campaign in search for killer of Delphi teens

DELPHI, Ind. — As investigators work to solve the murders of two teenagers in Delphi and a call center fields hundreds of tips, a billboard campaign is another tool being used in the investigation.…

fox59.com

I'm sorry but that is RA all day long to me. Especially the video clip pic. His right leg has a funny way of bending forward (more so than normal) when he walks. I've seen him do the same being brought into and out of court. And those jeans rolling down around the ankles as well.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

You guys were discussing the multiple suspect theory upthread

Reviewing the cases on SODDI that I posted yesterday, there was one strand to them, that if there are multiple offenders, then trying to prove a 3rd party was the killer may not always raise reasonable doubt, along the lines that more than one person is involved anyway so it doesn't exclude the defendant

I'll look for a good example of this but my reason for posting is IMO, this might explain why the prosecution is tactically open to multiple offenders. i.e they can't exclude it, but they believe they have the evidence that RA was one of those people

 

[susiQ]

I believe the question is why did this change happen?

The request to remove the information came from the Indiana State Police. It released the following statement to 13News:

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi murders

The flier includes images of Libby German and Abby Williams, along with an image of the suspect from German's phone and a sketch.

www.wthr.com

The original:
View attachment 498143

FBI launches digital billboard campaign in search for killer of Delphi teens

DELPHI, Ind. — As investigators work to solve the murders of two teenagers in Delphi and a call center fields hundreds of tips, a billboard campaign is another tool being used in the investigation.…

fox59.com

How odd that they would ask the public to focus on the man on the bridge as well as the second sketch (BB) that looks nothing like the man on the bridge still shot from Libby’s phone. SMH

 

[sunshineray]

I really think FBI experts have this measuring thing down. If we can find the first FBI notices/ posters ... with the height ranges ... that's what the FBI experts determined, IMO.
The FBI threw resources and experts at Delphi; they were not messing around early weeks and months. JMHO

Actually I think there was a lot of messing around on the FBI's part, the Indy FBI branch. Shortly after the murders they were raiding KAK's and finding they were knee deep in the biggest C S A M case in the state's history. All that and they left a known offender, KAK, free for a couple years. I think there was a lot of distracting things to the Delphi case. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

We now understand that the LE investigation considered "more than one" perp theory(s). Thus another composite, thus remove the height estimates.

When I read Holeman's interrogation insisting that RA was BG, a thought crossed my mind: "Perhaps Holeman's just pushing RA (insisting he's BG) so that RA will finally give up who BG is?"
It was interesting to see that LE was still holding a "more than one perp" theory at the time of RA's arrest. Holeman also told RA he knew RA was involved in the girls death, and he was going to prove it.

I wonder if Holeman is still thinking about the "more than one perp theory" today. Or has LE given up on that theory, and the entire investigation? Was LE's effort to find additional perps dependent upon RA's cooperation? Or did LE continue to work, to investigate, and send updated "more-than-one-killer" discovery to the D?

Not to forget ... The Defense ... also arrived at a "more than one perp" theory. What is it about the crime scene that leads investigators to favor a more-than-one killer scenario?

We don't know LE's timeline for the murders. With a more-than-one-killer theory, LE could have RA leaving crime scene while the other killer(s) remained? RA could have left prior to
the murders. (I like to remind myself that the youtubers who have carefully illustrated and adopted model timelines with graphics based on ... what? Info they think they understand. Assumptions they make and forget to tell their audience about. Youtubers do not actually know the LE's theory of the case, and the certainly do not know LE's timeline for RA or for the murders. Thank you gag-order.)

The Franks Memo attempted to time the one-man double murder timeline ... it illustrated (belittled) a theory of the case where the timeline based upon BG as solo murderer wouldn't work.
Is the P's theory of the case presented at trial be: RA is the solo murderer?
Or will the P stick with a more-than-one theory?

At trial, it's all cards on the table. In this case, it could be a craps table.

Give me those opening statements. NOW.

JMHO

There's a time stamped picture one of the girls took right before they encountered BG/RA. There's BB's car arriving and leaving and also RA's car on the Harvest Store's video.
there's RA's own words to DD as to when he arrived and left. And there's Liberty's time stamped video/audio of BG/RA wearing exactly what RA said he was wearing.

The P has said in open court they think others are involved. That doesn't mean RA is not involved or they have to produce/out those people to convict RA. AJMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

How odd that they would ask the public to focus on the man on the bridge as well as the second sketch (BB) that looks nothing like the man on the bridge still shot from Libby’s phone. SMH

Let’s hold on the sketch for a moment and focus on the photo. Are you saying the man shown on the bridge in the flyer does not look like the man in Libby’s photo?

 

[steeltowngirl]

You guys were discussing the multiple suspect theory upthread

Reviewing the cases on SODDI that I posted yesterday, there was one strand to them, that if there are multiple offenders, then trying to prove a 3rd party was the killer may not always raise reasonable doubt, along the lines that more than one person is involved anyway so it doesn't exclude the defendant

I'll look for a good example of this but my reason for posting is IMO, this might explain why the prosecution is tactically open to multiple offenders. i.e they can't exclude it, but they believe they have the evidence that RA was one of those people

The Patrick Frazee murder trial (Kelsey Berreth case) explored the attempt to use a general denial defense vs. an alternate suspect defense, which had a lower bar. It still did not work. Frazee was sentenced to LWOP plus 156 years.

Attorney explains Patrick Frazee's planned defense for murder trial

While his lawyers did not file a motion to blame the murder on someone else as a defense, they do plan to use an alternate suspect to spark the idea of reasonable doubt.

www.koaa.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

Sorry ... and I object!
I did NOT cut and run.

@steeltowngirl, indeed!
I'm in in the WS Union, talk to my rep! I'm entitled to take breaks! LOL!

We're interested in the same thing. I knew it! I can't find the FBI original, ATM, but we can probably agree it's findable. I can tell you I trusted it then. I'll trust it again. That's the calculation.
And, it wasn't anywhere near 5' 6" . Someone will come up with the source. People here are awesome and helpful.

Touché! I knew you were rightly jabbing me with trusting the FBI over YouTubers, cause I had said that same thing a few pages back when we were discussing when and why the FBI was allegedly “kicked off”.

Thanks for the morning smile. And happy Felony Friday to everyone!