Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[girlhasnoname]

I went back and reread TLi's search affidavit for RA's property. There's something disturbing in there that is an echo from RL's search affidavit about how in the investigator's experience, this type of crime would be memorialized through digital photos/videos, or other digital means, during and after the crime.

IMO, a lot of what is written, spoken through the PCs, and interview techniques could be stemming from the FBI BAU's profiling of the suspect, including this digital memorialization idea.

My question is, what the hell was at that CS to give this impression?

I'm very curious if the State will present any kind of digital evidence that will prove this seemingly key concept. If RA is guilty yet spoke to LE, kept his same clothing/car/weapon/phone, etc., then would we not expect him to also have kept this deeply psychological connection (digital memorialization) as was predicted by the FBI and TLi? The D says there's no digital evidence connecting RA to the girls or the CS, which I understand a lot of people disregard since it comes from the D, but I'm not so willing to dismiss it without knowing the evidence. That's why I'm really curious about this detail, and if LE got it right.

*Also of note, in this document, TLi states the girl witness described him as no taller than 5'10", bigger build, and that she came up to his shoulder.

DocumentCloud

RA had from the first reinterview on Oct 13th, 2022 until the second on Oct 26th arrest to dispose of any highly incriminating things in his possession. He knew then that he was on LE's radar so it would seem highly likely for him to have gotten rid of small thumb drives, old phones, or any trophies he might have taken from the scene, or which connected him to it.

RA could have carried these types of things piece by piece and disposed of them anywhere in town or any garbage can. Maybe a CVS garbage can or McDonalds where the trash is emptied on a frequent basis.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I thought the same thing, but it's been denied that it has any relationship with KK. I know it's not unusual for LE to lie to suspects in order to solve crimes, but I'm not a suspect and I don't like being lied to.

Well layer, I don't like being lied to either but this case isn't about us. It's about LE, ISP and the FBI trying their best to connect the dots here on a brutal double homicide.

I think that second sketch looks just like the Anthony_Shots account pic. That's about the time we heard there was social media interaction involved. Maybe they were posting it in an effort to see if that account had contact with any other young girls in the area?

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

You guys were discussing the multiple suspect theory upthread

Reviewing the cases on SODDI that I posted yesterday, there was one strand to them, that if there are multiple offenders, then trying to prove a 3rd party was the killer may not always raise reasonable doubt, along the lines that more than one person is involved anyway so it doesn't exclude the defendant

I'll look for a good example of this but my reason for posting is IMO, this might explain why the prosecution is tactically open to multiple offenders. i.e they can't exclude it, but they believe they have the evidence that RA was one of those people

Agree, the State upgraded RA's original charges recently so I tend to think that they have solid information that RA was directly involved in the murders themselves.

At the PC LE stated they were still looking for other 'bad actors' involved and left the tip line open. That was a smart move on their part in case anyone had a change of circumstances and no longer wanted to provide cover or an alibi they might have once given.

24 Days and counting...

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Links to facts about jury selection and sequestration:

<snipped>
After jury selection, the actual trial phase of the proceedings will take place at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Gull confirmed Allen’s trial will take place six days a week — Monday through Saturday — if there are no religious objections from any of the jurors.

The jury (including several alternates) will be from Allen County, and jurors will be transported 100 miles to Delphi for the trial.

They will be sequestered the entire time.

More logistics released about upcoming Delphi murders trial

 

[TL4S]

RA had from the first reinterview on Oct 13th, 2022 until the second on Oct 26th arrest to dispose of any highly incriminating things in his possession. He knew then that he was on LE's radar so it would seem highly likely for him to have gotten rid of small thumb drives, old phones, or any trophies he might have taken from the scene, or which connected him to it.

RA could have carried these types of things piece by piece and disposed of them anywhere in town or any garbage can. Maybe a CVS garbage can or McDonalds where the trash is emptied on a frequent basis.

MOO

IIRC, the search was carried out on their home on Oct. 13th. I believe LE purposefully interviewed them and kept them outside the home while they got their SW to avoid the destruction of evidence. Jmo.

 

[Megnut]

Well layer, I don't like being lied to either but this case isn't about us. It's about LE, ISP and the FBI trying their best to connect the dots here on a brutal double homicide.

I think that second sketch looks just like the Anthony_Shots account pic. That's about the time we heard there was social media interaction involved. Maybe they were posting it in an effort to see if that account had contact with any other young girls in the area?

JMO

This.

And that's where the statement comes from IMO -- that the sketches are one and the same.

How can that be?

KAK used Anthony_Shots and EmilyAnn to communication with young teens in order to solicit CSAM, originally for his own consumption. (Bigger fish swarmed in when he discovered he could capitalize on it.)

We know others had access to his Dropbox irrc and to his AS and ES accounts, based on user differences in syntaxes.

Libby knew only A_S. She had no way of knowing he was A-A and E_A or that others were manipulating the E_A account. Grown men.

I think LE put out that YBG composite sketch not to get tips on the model whose photos were stolen but to get other girls to come forward who may have communicated with A_S (wouldn't even need to be girls in Delphi -- internet -- KAK could have solicited CSAM from anywhere).

My thinking, when this all comes out, RA is BG and he is YBG because he accessed that account, indirectly it's what lured them there that day (I believe that KAK set it up).... RA tracked them straight to the MHB arriving only minutes before them.

And that is how RA is both BG and YBG.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

IIRC, the search was carried out on their home on Oct. 13th. I believe LE purposefully interviewed them and kept them outside the home while they got their SW to avoid the destruction of evidence. Jmo.

They were kept outside for hours. Too bad we don't have the time the interview ended. In the interview I posted below, Barbara MacDonald reported the neighbors said LE arrived there just before noon and asked them to exit the house. They weren't allowed back in until around 11 pm that night.

The P said The following on page 3
"19. Investigators went to the residence of the Defendant, located at 1967 North Whiteman
Drive, Delphi, Indiana, knocked on the door and executed the search warrant around 5:00
P.M. on October 13m, 2022 and the search was complete around 7:09 P.M.
20. The Defendant and his wife were asked to be out of the residence while the search
warrant was executed but were allowed back in the residence immediately afierwards."
However, further down in the doc. he includes statements to the contrary.
Page 8: Diener signed the warrant on 6:37 pm
Page 13: Liggett executed the warrant at 7:09 pm.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Objection-Filed-6-27-2023-13.34.25-248103915-FFC47C07-5DAF-414E-9879-66EEBA100263.pdf

Here's the Barbara MacDonald interview where she talks about her interview with the neighbors. Includes photos of his car already on the tow truck while it's still quite light outside. Begins around the 34 mm.

 

[susane7]

From what I understand, the 2 sketches were of the same person (BG). BB and the juvenile witnesses all viewed Libby’s video and said their sketch is of the guy in it (BG). I think BB isn't a good eyewitness and her descriptions of what she saw aren't reliable. I think more than 90% of people who saw the video see the man on the video doesn't seem a young guy with poofy hair. She saw BG for some distance away. She saw a car that looked nothing like the car everyone else saw at the same time and place.

I think in 2019 press since the first sketch was going nowhere, LE in 2019 decided to change to her sketch. That's why they told so much conflicting statements about the sketches. I'm sure they regret that now. They should have gone with their instincts. One of the leakers who had access to some discovery (MRC, I think) confirm that. But as always, only in trial we will find out what's true or not.

I'm not critizing BB, I feel for her. I would be the wost witness in the world. I went to a doctor a few years ago and I really liked her. I wanted to make an appointment with her again but I didn't know her name. So I described her to some people in the city to see if anyone knew her. No one knew. Recently, I find the clinic where I went, call it, found her name and appointed a consult with her. My description about her were absolutely 1000% wrong: wrong skin's color, wrong hair's color, wrong's hair's style, wrong age lol

 

[girlhasnoname]

IIRC, the search was carried out on their home on Oct. 13th. I believe LE purposefully interviewed them and kept them outside the home while they got their SW to avoid the destruction of evidence. Jmo.

I honestly don't recall, but I know RA left that interview of his own volition and he could have had time at home to get rid of something or hand it off before LE arrived with a search warrant.

Do we know if LE followed him straight from the interview on the 13th and did not allow either RA or KA back inside their home? IDK

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

RA had from the first reinterview on Oct 13th, 2022 until the second on Oct 26th arrest to dispose of any highly incriminating things in his possession. He knew then that he was on LE's radar so it would seem highly likely for him to have gotten rid of small thumb drives, old phones, or any trophies he might have taken from the scene, or which connected him to it.

RA could have carried these types of things piece by piece and disposed of them anywhere in town or any garbage can. Maybe a CVS garbage can or McDonalds where the trash is emptied on a frequent basis.

MOO

I had not thought about that. You’re right, interesting to consider what might have been disposed of in those weeks.

Police kept the Allens outside all day, but apparently didn’t destroy the home in the process of searching, either. LE spent 12 days with excavators ripping up Heuermann’s house in their search for evidence in the Gilgo Beach slayings.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

From what I understand, the 2 sketches were of the same person (BG). BB and the juvenile witnesses all viewed Libby’s video and said their sketch is of the guy in it (BG). I think BB isn't a good eyewitness and her descriptions of what she saw aren't reliable. I think more than 90% of people who saw the video see the man on the video doesn't seem a young guy with poofy hair. She saw BG for some distance away. She saw a car that looked nothing like the car everyone else saw at the same time and place.

I think in 2019 press since the first sketch was going nowhere, LE in 2019 decided to change to her sketch. That's why they told so much conflicting statements about the sketches. I'm sure they regret that now. They should have gone with their instincts. One of the leakers who had access to some discovery (MRC, I think) confirm that. But as always, only in trial we will find out what's true or not.

I'm not critizing BB, I feel for her. I would be the wost witness in the world. I went to a doctor a few years ago and I really liked her. I wanted to make an appointment with her again but I didn't know her name. So I described her to some people in the city to see if anyone knew her. No one knew. Recently, I find the clinic where I went, call it, found her name and appointed a consult with her. My description about her were absolutely 1000% wrong: wrong skin's color, wrong hair's color, wrong's hair's style, wrong age lol

They said the two sketches were not the same person.

Two sketches released in Delphi murders are not of the same man, Indiana State Police say

Indiana State Police say they believe the new sketch "more accurately" represents the killer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi.

www.indystar.com

Indiana State Police clarify reasons for 2nd sketch in Delphi murders case

A news release from state police on Wednedsay explained why police released a second sketch.

www.wishtv.com

 

[susane7]

They said the two sketches were not the same person.

Two sketches released in Delphi murders are not of the same man, Indiana State Police say

Indiana State Police say they believe the new sketch "more accurately" represents the killer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi.

www.indystar.com

Indiana State Police clarify reasons for 2nd sketch in Delphi murders case

A news release from state police on Wednedsay explained why police released a second sketch.

www.wishtv.com

From my recall, they had conflicting statetements because probably different officers had differents opinions about the sketches. Sometimes they said were not the same person, sometimes Carter went to shows and said BG was a mix of two sketkes, etc. I think they are the same person but by different witnesses.

 

[steeltowngirl]

From my recall, they had conflicting statetements because probably different officers had differents opinions about the sketches. Sometimes they said we’re not the same person, sometimes Carter went to shows and said BG was a mix of two sketkes, etc. I think they are the same person but by different witnesses.

I recall hearing those statements, too. It’s baffling. And then we have this…

Carter explained why the second sketch looks so much different from the first sketch.

“I’ll answer the question in two parts,” Carter said. “One, isn’t that amazing? That he looks a lot like one, and a little bit like the other, depending on the eye of the beholder, right? And I’ve said all along the sketches are not photographs. There are reasons that we structurally – not structurally but logistically – changed the investigative strategy throughout the middle of this. And in multiple phases, some were not even recognized, nor did they have to be. But those detectives are going to do based upon what they know. And what they know comes from the people that live in that community and around the world. Literally.”

ISP Superintendent sheds more light on differences in Delphi murders suspect sketches

 

[TL4S]

I recall hearing those statements, too. It’s baffling. And then we have this…

Carter explained why the second sketch looks so much different from the first sketch.

“I’ll answer the question in two parts,” Carter said. “One, isn’t that amazing? That he looks a lot like one, and a little bit like the other, depending on the eye of the beholder, right? And I’ve said all along the sketches are not photographs. There are reasons that we structurally – not structurally but logistically – changed the investigative strategy throughout the middle of this. And in multiple phases, some were not even recognized, nor did they have to be. But those detectives are going to do based upon what they know. And what they know comes from the people that live in that community and around the world. Literally.”

ISP Superintendent sheds more light on differences in Delphi murders suspect sketches

Is he speaking Klingon? JK.

IMO, the sketches make more sense now that we know about the witness statements. However, DC's varying statements about the sketches do not. Maybe at that point in 2019, they were questioning whether the person the 3 girls saw really was not the same person BB saw? IDK...just a guess. I still want data on if there were other groups of girls on trails from noon to 1:30

 

[Emma Peel]

I recall hearing those statements, too. It’s baffling. And then we have this…

Carter explained why the second sketch looks so much different from the first sketch.

“I’ll answer the question in two parts,” Carter said. “One, isn’t that amazing? That he looks a lot like one, and a little bit like the other, depending on the eye of the beholder, right? And I’ve said all along the sketches are not photographs. There are reasons that we structurally – not structurally but logistically – changed the investigative strategy throughout the middle of this. And in multiple phases, some were not even recognized, nor did they have to be. But those detectives are going to do based upon what they know. And what they know comes from the people that live in that community and around the world. Literally.”

ISP Superintendent sheds more light on differences in Delphi murders suspect sketches

even more baffling. MOO
Carter = figurehead

 

[steeltowngirl]

New Delphi murders sketch released​

The new sketch shared Monday depicts a man who appears much younger than the original sketch. Carter said the old sketch is now being considered secondary.

Master Trooper Taylor Bryant, a sketch artist with Indiana State Police who drew the new sketch, told IndyStar a sketch is based on how a particular witness describes the suspect. If there are several witnesses, Bryant would draw a sketch for each description. Bryant did not draw the sketch that police released in July 2017.

"The witness is the main focus. So there’s no input from law enforcement at all in the generating of a sketch, other than my presence as the artist."

Bryant uses a "facial identification reference sheet" that has a list of different categories, from head shapes to different eyebrows and noses. The person will describe the suspect based on those categories. "(It's) easier to do that than to describe (the suspect) using just words," Bryant said.

The sketches are not exact, Bryant said. The renderings are a "ballpark estimation of what the person looks like."

The sketch released on Monday was drawn by Bryant on Feb. 17, 2017, a few days after the victims' bodies were found. The picture was based on the description of a person who saw something that the person felt needed to be reported, according to Bryant.

Delphi murders: New sketch of killer, video from Libby's phone released

Police released new evidence in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana.

www.indystar.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

even more baffling. MOO
Carter = figurehead

Aw. Yeah, he has a lot of haters. I’m not among them. Despite being all over the place, I appreciate his passion for this case.

 

[layer]

Well layer, I don't like being lied to either but this case isn't about us.

Take that back

It's about LE, ISP and the FBI trying their best to connect the dots here on a brutal double homicide.

I get it that LE is driven to pull out all the stops on a case like this. But there is a delicate balance. It is my distinct impression that since the girls were murdered LE has looked me in the eye and lied to my face, on more than one occasion. Lies undermine trust. So now, how am I suppposed to trust anything coming from them? I can elaborate on how I arrived at this impression, but this is honestly how I feel. It's not a good feeling.

I have often wondered... if I had the chance to crack a case at all costs, knowing that the methods I used were so far outside the rules that once identified the perp could never be prosecuted, would I still be tempted to do it. Answering that is harder than I would have thought. I really do care more about the truth than consequences. Good thing I'm not LE, I guess.

I think that second sketch looks just like the Anthony_Shots account pic.

100%

 

[TTF14]

I recall hearing those statements, too. It’s baffling. And then we have this…

Carter explained why the second sketch looks so much different from the first sketch.

“I’ll answer the question in two parts,” Carter said. “One, isn’t that amazing? That he looks a lot like one, and a little bit like the other, depending on the eye of the beholder, right? And I’ve said all along the sketches are not photographs. There are reasons that we structurally – not structurally but logistically – changed the investigative strategy throughout the middle of this. And in multiple phases, some were not even recognized, nor did they have to be. But those detectives are going to do based upon what they know. And what they know comes from the people that live in that community and around the world. Literally.”

ISP Superintendent sheds more light on differences in Delphi murders suspect sketches

I love Carter, but I never realized how much he "sounds like" Kamala Harris when he talks.

 

[susane7]

I recall hearing those statements, too. It’s baffling. And then we have this…

Carter explained why the second sketch looks so much different from the first sketch.

“I’ll answer the question in two parts,” Carter said. “One, isn’t that amazing? That he looks a lot like one, and a little bit like the other, depending on the eye of the beholder, right? And I’ve said all along the sketches are not photographs. There are reasons that we structurally – not structurally but logistically – changed the investigative strategy throughout the middle of this. And in multiple phases, some were not even recognized, nor did they have to be. But those detectives are going to do based upon what they know. And what they know comes from the people that live in that community and around the world. Literally.”

ISP Superintendent sheds more light on differences in Delphi murders suspect sketches

Baffling indeed. There were so many agencies involved in the case, maybe that's the reason for so conflicting statements. Carter looks a good guy and I like him but he was always criptic on his answers and that brought more speculation. It was frustating. I've never put many stock on the sketches. I'm anxious for the trial when we finally will have answers