Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

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I am leaning this way also. If he was after any random person, then why not BB? Sure she didn't go on the bridge, but she was 50feet away from him and nobody else was around. She then passes Abby and Libby as they walk toward BG/RA. He got really lucky (and I hate that work to describe this, but I can't think of another one to use) or he knew they would be there.

Now HOW did he know they'd be there. That is the question. Seems he knew before they arrived because he was there before them so I don't think it was just he could see them on an app because he arrived long before they did (like 15 minutes before they did if I'm remembering correctly).
BBM
IIRC, the A_S profile was communicating with Libby & Abby the morning of the 13th.

When a friend asked that online profile if they heard what happened, "Shots responded, ‘OMG what happened, du-du-du’ then stated, ‘Yeh we were supposed to meet but she never showed up.’
According to Vido, ‘Shots’ had messaged with Libby during the sleepover she had with Abby ahead of their final day. In fact, Shots was one of the last people she communicated with on the morning she and her friend went missing.
Now, investigators told Kline, they did not believe that he was the only one who messaged Libby under the guise of Shots
According to Vido, ‘On February 13 [at] eight o’clock in the morning …two separate devices…log in, log out. Log in, log out. All within minutes of each other. To the same Anthony Shots Snapchat account.’
Vido then drew Kline’s attention to subsequent messages exchanged between the Anthony Shots account and a friend of Libby’s.
The conversation began with the friend asking Shots if he had heard about Libby and Abby. Shots responded, ‘OMG what happened, du-du-du’ then stated, ‘Yeh we were supposed to meet but she never showed up.’
Vido did tell KAK that he also believes that KAK was NOT the only one who had access to the A_S profile and wanted to know who else was logging into these profiles.
 
A man considerably older than Abby & Libby with a gun trained on them would be all that it would take. IMO

I think RA somehow knew Abby & Libby were going to be there that day at that time, they arrived within 15-20 of each other. On a day when school would have normally been in session. RA didn't just leisurely stroll through the trails, witnesses place him as head down, hands in pockets, walking 'with a purpose' from Freedom Trail to MHB. All of that is just too coincidental to me.

I think he may have gotten their whereabouts through catfishing or CSAM related activity. But I have no doubt that
RA=BG=Killer(s).

Yes it bothers me that he seems to have known his targets would be there. But I waffle on it. He may have seen the other group of girls on the trial as he drove his car westbound on CR 300N but by the time he got on the trails they may have been too close to possible witnesses ( highway) or perhaps one too young or just too many for him to control to his desired location.
I doubt he saw BB and she should be grateful for that because it appears by the video he came prepared to carry out his plan.
He arrived before Abby and Libby and went to the bridge and lingered.
Perhaps he was just waiting on the right victims to fall into his trap. I believe he saw them passed them and then he waited for them to start across MHB then he went to see if there were anymore potential witnesses coming - saw there wasn’t and sprung the trap.
I do believe he planned and executed this crime alone. His wife stated he walked the trails often.JMO
Whenever anyone brings in doubt that a grown man armed with a loaded gun and knife could commit this on his own I am reminded of 911 and the the enormous tragedy that occurred from men armed with box cutters as weapons outnumbered 10/1.
Fear+isolation=compliance.

All my opinions
Well, to be honest, he’s just barely a grown man. He’s not imposing. But a gun is. Even coming from a woman or a child actually.

Sure, he could do this on his own - but it’s the fact that he was getting away with it for years that is somewhat surprising.
 
Well, to be honest, he’s just barely a grown man. He’s not imposing.

Sure, he could do this on his own - but it’s the fact that he was getting away with it for years that is somewhat surprising.
Yes I believe his height and stature made him a very overlooked suspect.
Bad guys don’t always look like big bad guys.
Again the terrorist recruited to take control of the planes on 911 were recruited specifically for the job because they were between 5’5” and 5’7”.

Hiding in plain sight.
AMO
 
Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby
ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at
(844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com


PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY

Link to post with all threads 1 - 98 (Courtesy of margarita25)
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Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
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IMAGE Discussion Thread

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Rules Etiquette & Information


Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION

DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.


Added 12/12/21

For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSA

The truth of it doesn't help the D, but the distorted and exaggerated rumours, like 'searchers took pix of the bodies' helped the D. And that's what they wanted, IMO.
His lawyers need to go on a sabbatical or something. Because this guy will be cooked regardless. Lol.
 
Yes, thank you. I apologize for the snark of my last post. I'm looking at the broader picture of how everything has unfolded since RA's arrest (and even before), and I'm not comfortable with it. It's great so many people have seen enough to pick a side, but the deeper we get into things, the firmer I am in the middle. For me to pick a side now, either side, would mean ignoring what I see as the full picture, and I'm unwilling to do that. That's JMO, in my own perspective, not even considering guilt or innocence. Everybody loves to talk about how the D is "cherry picking," but that's exactly what I see being done by people discussing this online, including here at WS. The D, NMcL, JG, and LE have all made some questionable calls, IMO, and I hope like hell that by the end of trial, my concerns are eased by the evidence presented.

I need to just take a step back until trial...thankfully should be coming soon!
I feel this 100%!!!
 
I think the crimes points to one man who was completely disorganized and overly excited and didn’t know what to do fully as it was the first time he had committed a crime. Thats why the crime scene is chaotic.

Moo
Have been all over the place with this, initially thought it was a group, but if it could be one person that surreptitiously got access to the dropbox mentioned so many times, agreed maybe one man, not completely disorganized but mixed. Maybe not thinking clearly. I don't think it's his first crime, he's had other crimes with similarly bizarre CSs left behind. Done by design to misdirect D or because he's not thinking clearly. MOO.
 
The part that makes no sense, is why did he provide the Affidavit where he admits the crime? Is it because he got bad advice to start with?
It's weird because MW did, apparently, graduate from Law School. [but didn't pass the bar?]

But still, he graduated from 4 years of legal studies, so I'd assume he'd know better than to admit everything on paper and under oath if he planned to plead Not Guilty and go to trial.
 
This one also does not match the excerpts you sent earlier where military time was as used throughout. I am asking you to link that document.
The document you sent was page 9 of PCA per your notes. This document has only 8 pages and is labeled as such in the lower left hand corner.

Thank you. Since the discussion has been about RA using military time in his narrative with DD then you sent a couple pages of a document that showed military time throughout the document. I am asking for you to link the document that you cited as the PCA.
Or if not the PCA then please cite the document and link. Thank you.
The page # was not 9. It is page 4 of 8.

Same document; wrong page #. Removed SS.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf
 
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It's weird because MW did, apparently, graduate from Law School. [but didn't pass the bar?]

But still, he graduated from 4 years of legal studies, so I'd assume he'd know better than to admit everything on paper and under oath if he planned to plead Not Guilty and go to trial.
My opinion is he figured AB would protect him. But then it got bigger and BR probably wasn’t going to be on board with any of that nonsense. He had already signed the affidavit and he was tossed out like last weeks leftovers. Jmo
Anyone who ever listened to TMS podcast where MW was interviewed it’s quite apparent he idolized AB. IMO MW liked being in association of him and considered himself as an integral part of the team. Despite that I didn’t think the interview gave a positive reflection of the firm. He described AB as messy, chaotic, impulsive and seeking validation from others.
I was not terribly surprised by what came out of that office. Sometimes chaotic environments are intentional. It can cover up a myriad of sins as mistakes.

JMO
 
The page # was not 9. It is page 4 of 8.

Same document; wrong page #. Got it?

View attachment 498886
Click image to enlarge.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf
No because this document does not match the one you screenshot earlier in post #924.
The document you screenshot and stated was a copy from a page of the PCA included military time throughout.
Perhaps you can link the document you first presented in the discussion and stated it was page 9 of the PCA?
 
Here’s a copy of the original post for your reference.
See how there is military time referenced before and after RA’s narrative to DD. This is not in any of the documents you have linked. This is not in the PCA that you have linked. I am asking you since you stated that military time was used throughout the PCA and used this document as proof - can you to please link that version for me? I would really appreciate seeing it.
 
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I'm sorry but this is just another tactic for the D to try and get the confessions thrown out IMO. The D themselves have said that the times they met with RA he was helpful, respectful, communicative and in general good spirits. That would have been from Nov - April.

The D Motion states that RA had been treated for depression at some points in his life. That's very different than psychosis and other debilitating mental illness conditions. I'd love to know the numbers of the population in general that have been treated for depression at some point, especially after COVID. Times got hard for a lot of people.

I personally know 7 individuals that take an anti depressant, they are highly functioning, not slobbering, paper and poo eating, non sleeping eating individuals. They don't go around confessing to murders they obviously didn't commit.

I have no judgement against anyone with a mental health issue period. I am grateful to see that over the last few years people are actually talking about it without stigma. That's the way it should be, because there is no shame in it.

What I do find quite odd and coincidental is that RA wasn't showing any signs of this severe psychosis, or mental break until AFTER the discovery dump of the State's evidence. He made confessions to his wife and mother which we will learn the context of at trial. Then he became severely mentally ill from that time up until June, when he went back to his 'normal' actions.

The Westville DOC will have mental health records for RA, especially if he came into the prison already on medication. They are licensed Doctors, Nurses, and Psychiatrists who must follow the Hippocratic Oath and I find it hard to believe they would intentionally drug or misdrug a defendant. Again, a conspiracy bridge too far.

The D wants to garner sympathy for RA again after the Odin angle wimped out and they need those darn, pesky confessions thrown out. What better way to do this with the added benefit of righteous indignation if you dare even question RA's mental health status. Win/Win for the Defense, or so they think.

Lori Vallow and Leticia Stauch are just 2 of the recent cases that tried to blame their actions on mental defect. It didn't work for them. Sometimes people are just bad. Period. There is no explaining it.

MOO
I think you are giving the prison healthcare system far too much credit. moo
 
Here’s a copy of the original post for your reference.
See how there is military time referenced before and after RA’s narrative to DD. This is not in any of the documents you have linked. This is not in the PCA that you have linked. I am asking you since you stated that military time was used throughout the PCA and used this document as proof - can you to please link that version for me? I would really appreciate seeing it.
I never claimed that MIL time was written throughout the document. You may have me confused with someone else.

I only have one probable cause doc and one search warrant returned that belongs to this case. That's it. You've seen what I've got as for the PCA link.
 
I never claimed that MIL time was written throughout the document. You may have me confused with someone else.

I only have one probable cause doc and one search warrant returned that belongs to this case. That's it. You've seen what I've got as for the PCA link.
I have zero confusion here, thank you for your contribution DeDee.
I have more clarity from your input.
Carry on
 
I think the crimes points to one man who was completely disorganized and overly excited and didn’t know what to do fully as it was the first time he had committed a crime. Thats why the crime scene is chaotic.

Moo
Do you mean disorganized, as in the FBI’s categorization of disorganized-organized offender typology? If so, I’m glad you brought this up-I would like to discuss/hear everyone’s thoughts on the Delphi homicides re: organized or disorganized?

One of the earliest attempts to classify serial killers was the FBI organized/disorganized crime scene typology, developed by the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit in the 1980s by Ressler, Burgess, Douglas, and colleagues. The two dichotomous categories were: determined by the offender’s behavior at a murder scene, and reflective of the offender’s personality, development, social interactions, and criminal history.

The level of forensic awareness was central to these 2 categories (organized = forensically aware; disorganized = not forensically aware).

Organized offenders exercise a great deal of control at the crime scene, tend to be more forensically aware, socially competent, more likely to target strangers, more likely to use a vehicle, and above average intelligence. Example: Joel Rifkin.

Disorganized offenders kill spontaneously/opportunistically, leaving a muddled/disorganized crime scene, are more likely to be psychotic, have low social competence, are more likely to know the victim, more likely to not use a vehicle during the commission of a murder, more likely to keep a dead body, and more likely to leave the weapon at the crime scene/less forensically aware. Example: Herbert Mullin.

The Delphi Crime Scene is described on p. 28-31 of the FM (linked below). Per the below lists and information we have, which would everyone consider the Delphi killer(s)? Organized or Disorganized? Per Ressler et. al. (Sourced below):

*Organized Killers*

-offense planned

-victim is targeted stranger

-personalized victim (i.e. there is something specific about their victims, although strangers)

-controlled conversation

-controlled crime scene (awareness of investigative procedure/forensic awareness; they often remove a great deal of evidence from the crime scene, resulting in more difficult apprehension)

-demands submissive victims (controls the victims and the scene)

-restraints used

-aggressive acts PRIOR to death (due to sadistic nature/gains pleasure from prolonged suffering)

-body hidden

-weapon or evidence absent

-transports victim/body


*Disorganized Killer*

-spontaneous offenses

-victim is known and/or in known location

-depersonalized victim (there are no particular traits about the victim)

-minimal conversation

-random, sloppy crime scene (often laden with evidence to assist LE in identifying the offender)

-sudden violent to the victim (often begins with trivial things, trivial arguments)

-minimal use of restraints (the violence is a means to an end, act-focused kill)

-SA postmortem (due to social and sexual incompetence)

-body left in view

-weapon/evidence often present

-body left at scene (as opposed to transporting and moving the body)

Personally, I feel the Delphi scene as we know it is contradictory. I don’t know which category I believe the killer(s) would fit into (JMO), so I am curious what everyone else thinks!

Sources:
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders. Ressler & Burgess. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin Volume: 54. Issue: 8 Dated: (August 1985) Pages: 18-25.
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs
Sexual Killers and Their Victims: Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis. Ressler et. al. (1986)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/088626086001003003
2nd link on DOJ website
Sexual Killers and Their Victims - Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis | Office of Justice Programs
(If mods need further info, I am happy to supply personal identification/academic background re: list summarization)
FM, p. 28-31
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

EDIT: Typo
 
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A more scenic route. Less cameras more country. In the winter you can see people on the trail and bridge through the trees while on the road.
He could see if RL was home and if anyone was at the cemetery, he could see It anyone was parked at the trailhead entrance at Mears. (Adults)
Or another theory - he left equipment such as a tripod or tarp too cumbersome and obvious to carry. Just a few ideas there for you.

He basically almost circled the trail before deciding to execute his plan.
JMO
Admittedly I still don't have a grasp of the landmarks below the MHB so I might botch this from the outset --

Was the river crossing required, in order to get from DTH to the site where they were found?

Is there consensus on the thread as to whether crossing the river seemed premeditated or whether spontaneous, if for instance the girls tried to escape?

Consider: if RA used a tripod, perhaps he pre-positioned it on the far side of the river prior to trailing to the MHB. So he wouldn't have to carry it while abducting, corraling, controlling the girls and so it wouldn't get wet if it was a planned river crossing.

If he went to, say, the cemetery first, would that be on the far side of the river? From there, would he be coming from the east as he arrived to park at the CPS building?

It makes me sick to think how the girls went from giddy to perhaps creeped to is that a gun?

When he said G...DTH, did they immediately comprehend? Did they think maybe he was LE, DNR, park police and was going to scold them for being on the bridge? When did full bore fear set in?

Horrors if he forced them across the river only for them to discover a killing field prepared... a camera... who knows what else....

All that redundant activity on the A_S account that morning -- was that all KAK? Was he synchronizing two phones?

Did KAK sell Libby's location? Via a shared, possibly unregistered cellphone that passed somehow from KAK to RA (and eventually back again)? Did KAK think this other buyer was going to create CSAM content for him (for his dropbox)? And did expect to meet Libby later that day, by agreement, virtual or in real time (in some fashion), KAK himself planned to show up as a super special agent to A_S who "couldn't be here but wanted me to give you this from him". (A prop from the photo shoot perhaps.)
I wonder if there's been any money to follow. Dro payms for addresses, access, photo shoots, etc.... awful to say was there a price tag for 2/13?
 
Yes it bothers me that he seems to have known his targets would be there. But I waffle on it. He may have seen the other group of girls on the trial as he drove his car westbound on CR 300N but by the time he got on the trails they may have been too close to possible witnesses ( highway) or perhaps one too young or just too many for him to control to his desired location.
I doubt he saw BB and she should be grateful for that because it appears by the video he came prepared to carry out his plan.
He arrived before Abby and Libby and went to the bridge and lingered.
Perhaps he was just waiting on the right victims to fall into his trap. I believe he saw them passed them and then he waited for them to start across MHB then he went to see if there were anymore potential witnesses coming - saw there wasn’t and sprung the trap.
I do believe he planned and executed this crime alone. His wife stated he walked the trails often.JMO
Whenever anyone brings in doubt that a grown man armed with a loaded gun and knife could commit this on his own I am reminded of 911 and the the enormous tragedy that occurred from men armed with box cutters as weapons outnumbered 10/1.
Fear+isolation=compliance.

All my opinions
bbm
If RA walked the trails often (I didn't know until now), I think, that area was completely to his special taste (and I don't mean "nature" or "wildlife"): a hang-out-spot/party-spot for young people!!, various meeting points for grown men with secret activities, some "trail controllers" like RL may have been acquaintances. Someone, who likes to spend time out there, probably wants to watch others do what they do or take part in the activity themselves.
Of course, there are dogwalkers, who do not have this intention. Maybe, they are using different trails and/or stay there for less time.
RA wasn't a dogwalker afaik; he walked his useful, indispensable cellphone only.
I very well can imagine RA as a super-curious observer of all the people, who were constantly there at different times. Certainly he had knowledge of a lot of not quite kosher activities, and maybe, he used his knowledge or people knew, he would be able to use his knowledge. Add to this knowledge his intimate insight into people's private things via his job as a CVS pharmacy technician, and you have an Delphi insider at its finest, inclusive his geographical knowledge of the MHB area due to his frequent visits.
MOO
 
No because this document does not match the one you screenshot earlier in post #924.
The document you screenshot and stated was a copy from a page of the PCA included military time throughout.
Perhaps you can link the document you first presented in the discussion and stated it was page 9 of the PCA?
I believe the screenshot is of the PCA for the search warrant for RA's house. You can find it on page 110 of the pdf linked by Fox 59 on this page: Delphi Documents Released
 
I have zero confusion here, thank you for your contribution DeDee.
I have more clarity from your input.
Carry on
Here is a link from searching the terms military time in this thread. There are two pages of posts.

Not once did I write that MIL time was used throughout the PCA. I don't see where anyone stated that but I'm not opening each post to find out for sure. I only know I did not write that statement.

Maybe you'll glance through them. IDK.

Search results for query: military time
 
When a friend asked that online profile if they heard what happened, "Shots responded, ‘OMG what happened, du-du-du’ then stated, ‘Yeh we were supposed to meet but she never showed up.’
According to Vido, ‘Shots’ had messaged with Libby during the sleepover she had with Abby ahead of their final day. In fact, Shots was one of the last people she communicated with on the morning she and her friend went missing.
Now, investigators told Kline, they did not believe that he was the only one who messaged Libby under the guise of Shots
According to Vido, ‘On February 13 [at] eight o’clock in the morning …two separate devices…log in, log out. Log in, log out. All within minutes of each other. To the same Anthony Shots Snapchat account.’
There's just no, no way that could be a coincidence in terms of what happened to these sweet young girls that day. The murderer used that dropbox, I would swear by it. He didn't just randomly take two girls he saw on the trails, he knew they were coming. Kline has made it sound like there's quite a lot of traffic with that box, and he himself doesn't seem to know who had access. The murderer probably knew that, and liked that idea. It's going to be bizarre beyond belief to me if that box isn't in some way involved, but all pure speculation, & MOO. Overall, this killer's "pretty" organized, and maybe incredibly organized, it depends. Planned, brought weapons, outdoor CS left completely clean, subdued the victims. That's organized. Now, yes, he looks a mess, he's got that face covering on a nice day which might draw attention, and he left the phone (not organized, imo). But thinking if that CS is elaborately staged to mislead LE, and the phone was left to taunt LE, this is an extremely organized killer that's almost addicted to risk. (MOO) But if that's all true, and he acted alone, why cross the creek?? Does anyone know, is the brush thicker over that way, is there less foot traffic, some visibility difference from the bridge, any advantage? Just thought of something. If he acted alone, that means he just walked the part of the trail that he's leaving with the victims as they cross over. If he crosses the creek, he now knows nobody is going to approach from the side they crossed from, he's already scoped that side out. And now, he's kind of positioned parallel to anyone that may enter the bridge from the side of the trail he didn't himself walk. He'd see them before they'd see him-- arguably.
 
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