Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[DeDee]

There's just no, no way that could be a coincidence in terms of what happened to these sweet young girls that day. The murderer used that dropbox, I would swear by it. He didn't just randomly take two girls he saw on the trails, he knew they were coming. Kline has made it sound like there's quite a lot of traffic with that box, and he himself doesn't seem to know who had access. The murderer probably knew that, and liked that idea. It's going to be bizarre beyond belief to me if that box isn't in some way involved, but all pure speculation, & MOO. Overall, this killer's "pretty" organized, and maybe incredibly organized, it depends. Planned, brought weapons, outdoor CS left completely clean, subdued the victims. That's organized. Now, yes, he looks a mess, he's got that face covering on a nice day which might draw attention, and he left the phone (not organized, imo). But thinking if that CS is elaborately staged to mislead LE, and the phone was left to taunt LE, this is an extremely organized killer that's almost addicted to risk. (MOO) But if that's all true, and he acted alone, why cross the creek?? Does anyone know, is the brush thicker over that way, is there less foot traffic, some visibility difference from the bridge, any advantage? Just thought of something. If he acted alone, that means he just walked the part of the trail that he's leaving with the victims as they cross over. If he crosses the creek, he now knows nobody is going to approach from the side they crossed from, he's already scoped that side out. And now, he's kind of positioned parallel to anyone that may enter the bridge from the side of the trail he didn't himself walk. He'd see them before they'd see him-- arguably.

Transcript from Anna's interview from Sept. 30, 2022

18:12
confirm but i confirmed safely enough that we assigned paperwork for them to go on their gmail and their apple
18:19
accounts to go through all of their social media and had at no time found that they were being
18:28
followed were supposed to be meeting somebody we have no reason to believe in any way which is
18:34
also the reason why no amber alert was issued people questioned us about that to begin with
18:40
um no suspicious car no inclination that they were meeting anybody that might
18:45
have been different than who they said because they weren't meeting anybody they woke up and wanted to go and they
18:50
went um so we feel like very strongly they've gone through
18:56
all of those um possibilities and we have no reason to believe that they were
19:01
meeting somebody that wasn't who they said or that they had fake profiles um

 

[snooptroop88]

Transcript from Anna's interview from Sept. 30, 2022

18:12
confirm but i confirmed safely enough that we assigned paperwork for them to go on their gmail and their apple
18:19
accounts to go through all of their social media and had at no time found that they were being
18:28
followed were supposed to be meeting somebody we have no reason to believe in any way which is
18:34
also the reason why no amber alert was issued people questioned us about that to begin with
18:40
um no suspicious car no inclination that they were meeting anybody that might
18:45
have been different than who they said because they weren't meeting anybody they woke up and wanted to go and they
18:50
went um so we feel like very strongly they've gone through
18:56
all of those um possibilities and we have no reason to believe that they were
19:01
meeting somebody that wasn't who they said or that they had fake profiles um

Not saying anyone genuinely arranged a meeting, but I'd fear someone got some idea of the girls' whereabouts somehow from any contacts through that box.

 

[Falling Down]

bbm
If RA walked the trails often (I didn't know until now), I think, that area was completely to his special taste (and I don't mean "nature" or "wildlife"): a hang-out-spot/party-spot for young people!!, various meeting points for grown men with secret activities, some "trail controllers" like RL may have been acquaintances. Someone, who likes to spend time out there, probably wants to watch others do what they do or take part in the activity themselves.
Of course, there are dogwalkers, who do not have this intention. Maybe, they are using different trails and/or stay there for less time.
RA wasn't a dogwalker afaik; he walked his useful, indispensable cellphone only.
I very well can imagine RA as a super-curious observer of all the people, who were constantly there at different times. Certainly he had knowledge of a lot of not quite kosher activities, and maybe, he used his knowledge or people knew, he would be able to use his knowledge. Add to this knowledge his intimate insight into people's private things via his job as a CVS pharmacy technician, and you have an Delphi insider at its finest, inclusive his geographical knowledge of the MHB area due to his frequent visits.
MOO

I pictured the killer as being a voyeur, of sorts, and RA definitely fits within that. I'd say he most likely went to the bridge area on a frequent basis, per the weather in that area of Indiana. Observed people.

I am convinced he knew the one property owner with a home closest to the CS lives in the southern U.S. during Winter. He would have been privy to that information working at CVS, with it being the only pharmacy in Carroll County. When the evidence is released I'm sure there will be some eye-opening stuff for us all. As some have noted, the Defense is cherry-picking the text of the conversations RA had with LE. I can guarantee the full conversations they had with him will be released and will reveal things LE asked him that fit within Doug Carter's great line about the killer wanting to know what LE knows (paraphrasing).

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

It seems odd that he would be coming from the east, doesn't it? What's to the east of Delphi?

East and to the north you will find Mexico, IN.
Maybe he was visiting someone who lives there?

 

[katydid23]

There's just no, no way that could be a coincidence in terms of what happened to these sweet young girls that day. The murderer used that dropbox, I would swear by it. He didn't just randomly take two girls he saw on the trails, he knew they were coming.

I think so too.

Kline has made it sound like there's quite a lot of traffic with that box, and he himself doesn't seem to know who had access. The murderer probably knew that, and liked that idea. It's going to be bizarre beyond belief to me if that box isn't in some way involved, but all pure speculation, & MOO.

I think RA could have had access to that drop box. And thus access to those IG accounts. And so he'd know the girls were going to be at the trail.

Overall, this killer's "pretty" organized, and maybe incredibly organized, it depends. Planned, brought weapons, outdoor CS left completely clean, subdued the victims. That's organized. Now, yes, he looks a mess, he's got that face covering on a nice day which might draw attention, and he left the phone (not organized, imo). But thinking if that CS is elaborately staged to mislead LE, and the phone was left to taunt LE, this is an extremely organized killer that's almost addicted to risk. (MOO)

I could see that.

But if that's all true, and he acted alone, why cross the creek??

I've always wondered if one or both of the girls ran into the creek in trying to get away?

Does anyone know, is the brush thicker over that way, is there less foot traffic, some visibility difference from the bridge, any advantage? Just thought of something. If he acted alone, that means he just walked the part of the trail that he's leaving with the victims as they cross over. If he crosses the creek, he now knows nobody is going to approach from the side they crossed from, he's already scoped that side out. And now, he's kind of positioned parallel to anyone that may enter the bridge from the side of the trail he didn't himself walk. He'd see them before they'd see him-- arguably.

Good point.

 

[katydid23]

Transcript from Anna's interview from Sept. 30, 2022

18:12
confirm but i confirmed safely enough that we assigned paperwork for them to go on their gmail and their apple
18:19
accounts to go through all of their social media and had at no time found that they were being
18:28
followed were supposed to be meeting somebody we have no reason to believe in any way which is
18:34
also the reason why no amber alert was issued people questioned us about that to begin with
18:40
um no suspicious car no inclination that they were meeting anybody that might
18:45
have been different than who they said because they weren't meeting anybody they woke up and wanted to go and they
18:50
went um so we feel like very strongly they've gone through
18:56
all of those um possibilities and we have no reason to believe that they were
19:01
meeting somebody that wasn't who they said or that they had fake profiles um

Don't snapchat stories disappear in a few hours? IG stories do as well.

I thought both Libby and KAK had cleared/reformatted their phones a day or two before. what was that about?

KAK said he knew the girls were going there and he told LE he was supposed to meet them. He reformatted/erased his iPhone before he turned it into the investigators so we don't know if he had communicated with Libby in some way.

From what I heard, the girls didn't tell their families that they wanted to go to the trails until that morning, but they had talked to friends about it before that. So no surprise that Anna wouldn't know until that morning.

 

[snarast]

Don't snapchat stories disappear in a few hours? IG stories do as well.

I thought both Libby and KAK had cleared/reformatted their phones a day or two before. what was that about?

KAK said he knew the girls were going there and he told LE he was supposed to meet them. He reformatted/erased his iPhone before he turned it into the investigators so we don't know if he had communicated with Libby in some way.

From what I heard, the girls didn't tell their families that they wanted to go to the trails until that morning, but they had talked to friends about it before that. So no surprise that Anna wouldn't know until that morning.

Not if you screencap them. Some tool like that must have been all the rage for the peddos at the time.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I understand but please watch as I want to see your thoughts. It lines up with the PCA and will give you an overhead view of surrounding areas. All witnesses are time stamped and marked on the video.

ETA- all that you asked is on there.

I looked for the link and couldn't find it. If you have it, could you please bring it forward?

 

[mrjitty]

Do you mean disorganized, as in the FBI’s categorization of disorganized-organized offender typology? If so, I’m glad you brought this up-I would like to discuss/hear everyone’s thoughts on the Delphi homicides re: organized or disorganized?

One of the earliest attempts to classify serial killers was the FBI organized/disorganized crime scene typology, developed by the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit in the 1980s by Ressler, Burgess, Douglas, and colleagues. The two dichotomous categories were: determined by the offender’s behavior at a murder scene, and reflective of the offender’s personality, development, social interactions, and criminal history.

The level of forensic awareness was central to these 2 categories (organized = forensically aware; disorganized = not forensically aware).

Organized offenders exercise a great deal of control at the crime scene, tend to be more forensically aware, socially competent, more likely to target strangers, more likely to use a vehicle, and above average intelligence. Example: Joel Rifkin.

Disorganized offenders kill spontaneously/opportunistically, leaving a muddled/disorganized crime scene, are more likely to be psychotic, have low social competence, are more likely to know the victim, more likely to not use a vehicle during the commission of a murder, more likely to keep a dead body, and more likely to leave the weapon at the crime scene/less forensically aware. Example: Herbert Mullin.

The Delphi Crime Scene is described on p. 28-31 of the FM (linked below). Per the below lists and information we have, which would everyone consider the Delphi killer(s)? Organized or Disorganized? Per Ressler et. al. (Sourced below):

*Organized Killers*

-offense planned

-victim is targeted stranger

-personalized victim (i.e. there is something specific about their victims, although strangers)

-controlled conversation

-controlled crime scene (awareness of investigative procedure/forensic awareness; they often remove a great deal of evidence from the crime scene, resulting in more difficult apprehension)

-demands submissive victims (controls the victims and the scene)

-restraints used

-aggressive acts PRIOR to death (due to sadistic nature/gains pleasure from prolonged suffering)

-body hidden

-weapon or evidence absent

-transports victim/body


*Disorganized Killer*

-spontaneous offenses

-victim is known and/or in known location

-depersonalized victim (there are no particular traits about the victim)

-minimal conversation

-random, sloppy crime scene (often laden with evidence to assist LE in identifying the offender)

-sudden violent to the victim (often begins with trivial things, trivial arguments)

-minimal use of restraints (the violence is a means to an end, act-focused kill)

-SA postmortem (due to social and sexual incompetence)

-body left in view

-weapon/evidence often present

-body left at scene (as opposed to transporting and moving the body)

Personally, I feel the Delphi scene as we know it is contradictory. I don’t know which category I believe the killer(s) would fit into (JMO), so I am curious what everyone else thinks!

Sources:
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders. Ressler & Burgess. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin Volume: 54. Issue: 8 Dated: (August 1985) Pages: 18-25.
Crime Scene and Profile Characteristics of Organized and Disorganized Murders | Office of Justice Programs
Sexual Killers and Their Victims: Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis. Ressler et. al. (1986)
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/088626086001003003
2nd link on DOJ website
Sexual Killers and Their Victims - Identifying Patterns Through Crime Scene Analysis | Office of Justice Programs
(If mods need further info, I am happy to supply personal identification/academic background re: list summarization)
FM, p. 28-31
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

EDIT: Typo

This whole area of crime scene staging is one of my anorak fascinations and I read Whoever Fights Monsters by Robert Ressler

One of the most interesting things is that offenders lie along the spectrum of organised/disorganised, and that there may be up to 3 crime scenes for these aduction/murders

1. Abduction scene - The Bridge

2. Crime scene - Often hidden this is somewhere the killer feels safe

3. Dumping site - the bodies are either dumped or concealed. This is a form of staging - e.g to conceal forensics, or conceal the crime scene (2) where the attack happened.

Sometimes 2 and 3 are the same place. e.g. if the attack is more opportunistic, or removal would be difficult. Some killers are very organised and don't stage at all.

I personally believe 2 and 3 are the same place in this crime. Concealing at a distance from vehicle access is hard (see No Stone Unturned), let alone 2 bodies. I think they walked to wear they died.

I also believe super crime powers can be ascribed to the disorganised killer, which are actually just luck and mistakes e.g the bodies were concealed just enough, that they weren't found straight away.

 

[vinayd]

I looked for the link and couldn't find it. If you have it, could you please bring it forward?

here ya go.

Also note that Gray labels the red dot as "Sue" when that should "Betsy". BB is the one who saw the group of 3-4 girls on her way to park then walked past Abby & Libby on her way back to her car.

Sue's car is the blue car that passes on 300 at the end of the video.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Well, to be honest, he’s just barely a grown man. He’s not imposing. But a gun is. Even coming from a woman or a child actually.

Sure, he could do this on his own - but it’s the fact that he was getting away with it for years that is somewhat surprising.

He was a 45 year old grown man compared to 13, 14 year olds. Hiding in plain sight until that 'last piece' of the puzzle, as DC used to say, fell into place. The fact that RA was able to go on about his life with no obvious regret or remorse tells me all I need to know about him, no conscious.

I wish I knew how they came to focus on RA in 2022, I believe someone tipped him in and they went back and looked. It's a shame that he reported himself there so early on and nothing happened for 5 years. That was a huge miss by LE. I do wonder if he was ever on LE's radar at any point before his arrest?

MOO

 

[vinayd]

He was a 45 year old grown man compared to 13, 14 year olds. Hiding in plain sight until that 'last piece' of the puzzle, as DC used to say, fell into place. The fact that RA was able to go on about his life with no obvious regret or remorse tells me all I need to know about him, no conscious.

I wish I knew how they came to focus on RA in 2022, I believe someone tipped him in and they went back and looked. It's a shame that he reported himself there so early on and nothing happened for 5 years. That was a huge miss by LE. I do wonder if he was ever on LE's radar at any point before his arrest?

MOO

I think that was a little jab at the little suspect being "barely a grown man" and not "imposing". I believe he was tipped in as well.

 

[girlhasnoname]

here ya go.

Also note that Gray labels the red dot as "Sue" when that should "Betsy". BB is the one who saw the group of 3-4 girls on her way to park then walked past Abby & Libby on her way back to her car.

Sue's car is the blue car that passes on 300 at the end of the video.

How anyone could not look at this objectively and find it completely doable is surprising to me. Especially when you see the clock counter from approx 2:15 until 3:37 with RA and Abby and Libby just stopped at the spot across the creek. So disturbing, but accurate.

IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think you are giving the prison healthcare system far too much credit. moo

Maybe or perhaps you're not giving them enough credit. There are DOC and VA and other medical professionals who take their oath just as seriously as any other. IMO

 

[Megnut]

He was a 45 year old grown man compared to 13, 14 year olds. Hiding in plain sight until that 'last piece' of the puzzle, as DC used to say, fell into place. The fact that RA was able to go on about his life with no obvious regret or remorse tells me all I need to know about him, no conscious.

I wish I knew how they came to focus on RA in 2022, I believe someone tipped him in and they went back and looked. It's a shame that he reported himself there so early on and nothing happened for 5 years. That was a huge miss by LE. I do wonder if he was ever on LE's radar at any point before his arrest?

MOO

Some possibilities --

Genealogy -- maybe they got a familial hit on trace evidence recovered at the crime scene...

Perhaps KAK provided an important detail...

Maybe RA fired up a retired burner phone... maybe his personal computer use got flagged in a sting...

Maybe he said something to someone that seemed to knowledgeable and creeped the listener out...

Perhaps another young teen, newly adulted, came forward with old information, having been groomed back then by A_S or E_A...

Perhaps a family member, with the benefit of some distance and reason, had a growing suspicion and called it in...

Jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

It seems odd that he would be coming from the east, doesn't it? What's to the east of Delphi?

I don't think we have any verified information as to RA's movements the entire day of Feb 13th, 2017. Other than what we have pieced together from the PCA from approx 1:39 pm to 3:47 pm.

Maybe RA met someone before arriving at the trials? I truly do not have a clue...yet.

MOO

 

[vinayd]

There hasn't been any explanation or alibi. The defense did say "he was at home". Assuming they can say this based on phone data. But they didn't understand the data so hopefully they got their expert funds.

 

[Megnut]

I think RA was at the park for both times--

Perhaps the first time, he parked at the cemetery to set up a tripod and whatever else.

From there, he drove to the CPS lot.

All this after a run through the gas station to grab a stashed phone, preloaded with tracking software. (MOO)

Now why does THAT sound familiar? Tracking? Like tracking stocks? A little truth in every lie...

Bet he thought he was quite clever.

Monster.

JMO

 

[vinayd]

Absolute monster! I am now leaning toward prepping the scene and scoping it before coming back to complete the deed. I agree so much that he was a voyeur. If this is the case we will see it in evidence. A voyeur will creep on family and friends. Hidden cameras in the bathroom. Watching you while you sleep. Let's see what all unravels.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It's weird because MW did, apparently, graduate from Law School. [but didn't pass the bar?]

But still, he graduated from 4 years of legal studies, so I'd assume he'd know better than to admit everything on paper and under oath if he planned to plead Not Guilty and go to trial.

Agreed, but at the time he may not have known AB was going to throw him under the bus and how much of an investigation by ISP was going to take place.

AB and MW were 'good friends' had worked together in the past, MW might have felt loyalty was working both ways. I believe MW was used by AB to spread the SM mud slinging. Not that MW gets a pass from me. A man committed suicide during these leaks.

Ironic how in that TMS Podcast, according to MW, AB wanted to do something very 'off the cuff' in his presentation in another case when he worked there to the jury and the assisting Prosecutor said "No, not a good idea" the night before trial. AB supposedly showed up prepared to do just that anyway. Surprised, not one bit. I think AB likes to play fast and loose for the shock value. I don't think he ended up doing it. I will look for a link to that episode, you can learn a lot about MW and AB IMO from that.

EBM: Clarifying timeline, Removing Bench Trial request

JMO