Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[AugustWest]

Or the State wants the Defense to list specifics instead of waving a magic wand over 'all the statements' made by RA. I think that is good lawyering for NMcL even though a lot here think he is incompetent.

I believe the State has the solid goods on RA, and the D know's their time is running out. They're throwing every possible Motion against the wall to see what sticks. I'm not suggesting Judge Gull will deny all of these Motions, but I'd bet at least more than half, and rightly so.

ALL JMO

I'm not arguing for or against any of this, you realize? Nor have I argued against what the prosecution filed in response. I also feel that what the prosecution filed in response is adequate. I'm only stating what I feel is going on. What I am certain of, though, is that neither side is throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Each side has had a reasonable basis for the motions they have filed.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I mentioned before about the unpredictability of jurors getting crazy ideas. I actually thought this is where the defense was headed:
1. Demonstrate that LE in general (much like recording devices and precise dates) just doesn't work the same way in Indiana as everywhere else.
2. Give the impression that incarceration and maltreatment of suspects in order to break them down, extract confessions, and implicate other people is a normal investigative tool around there.
3. Undermine confidence in the very people bringing the evidence needed to convict.
Like I said, crazy

That's one way of looking at it...but

If the conditions of the treatment of RA were sooooo horrendous that it made RA make all these confessions and caused a psychotic break, and the Defense had proof to support their claims of this mistreatment since April of 23, why oh why hasn't an outside agency come in to investigate these accusations? The IDOC is not unanswerable to everyone in the United States.

RA has civil rights even beyond the SCOIN, why wasn't the ACLU notified to do an investigation? It's been highly publicized and talked about for over a year now. I believe it's because this is yet another gross over exaggeration made by the Defense in order to garner sympathy for RA and to also suppress incriminating confessions.

ALL JMO

 

[vinayd]

I’m a bit confused what you mean?

From my understanding, all data extraction reports should have been provided to the defense (and prosecution) by law enforcement. Law enforcement provides evidence against a suspect and the burden of proof is on the state. It is not the defense’s job to do LE’s job (collecting, organizing, maintaining investigative evidence in a homicide case).

Yes I agree. That's why I want to know how they received this and Axiom specifically. Since it's not a software they have access to I wonder if it it's something they have an extraction for.

 

[layer]

I believe the State has the solid goods on RA, and the D know's their time is running out.

To what end?
If the state has the goods the defense has the goods. Let's say John robs a bank. He's caught on video, there are eyewitnesses that identify him, he left his DNA on the counter, fingerprints on the robbery note, and the license plate of his Yugo was captured on exterior video as he made his escape.
Now his lawyers publicly say they believe John is innocent, seek no plea deal, plead not guilty, demand a speedy trial, and point out that one of the witnesses inaccurately thought John had hazel eyes.
I don't get it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm not arguing for or against any of this, you realize? Nor have I argued against what the prosecution filed in response. I also feel that what the prosecution filed in response is adequate. I'm only stating what I feel is going on. What I am certain of, though, is that neither side is throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Each side has had a reasonable basis for the motions they have filed.

That's what I'm doing as well, arguing was never mentioned by me.

 

[AugustWest]

That's what I'm doing as well, arguing was never mentioned by me.

Got it! I just wondered because I was just answering questions this morning, not making any arguments.

 

[vinayd]

That's one way of looking at it...but

If the conditions of the treatment of RA were sooooo horrendous that it made RA make all these confessions and caused a psychotic break, and the Defense had proof to support their claims of this mistreatment since April of 23, why oh why hasn't an outside agency come in to investigate these accusations? The IDOC is not unanswerable to everyone in the United States.

RA has civil rights even beyond the SCOIN, why wasn't the ACLU notified to do an investigation? It's been highly publicized and talked about for over a year now. I believe it's because this is yet another gross over exaggeration made by the Defense in order to garner sympathy for RA and to also suppress incriminating confessions.

ALL JMO

BBM
Well.. In their own words:

Adobe Acrobat
Pg 6

30. As a basis for understanding the impact of solitary confinement for even two weeks on a human being, let alone 16 plus months, the defense cites the United Nations findings on that topic. The United Nation’s Standard Minimum Rules for The Treatment of Prisoners (Rules 43 and 44) prohibits the imposition of solitary confinement for prolonged periods (defined as periods of 15 days or longer). Additionally, per the U.N. Standards, solitary confinement should be prohibited in the case of prisoners with physical or mental disabilities when their conditions would be exacerbated by such measures. (Rule 45). United Nations G.A. 70/175, The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, p. 13-14 (Dec. 17, 2015).

From the United Nations Website:
https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Nelson_Mandela_Rules-E-ebook.pdf

Rule 43

1. In no circumstances may restrictions or disciplinary sanctions amount to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The following practices, in particular, shall be prohibited:
(a) Indefinite solitary confinement;
(b) Prolonged solitary confinement;
(c) Placement of a prisoner in a dark or constantly lit cell;
(d) Corporal punishment or the reduction of a prisoner’s diet or drinking water;
(e) Collective punishment.
2. Instruments of restraint shall never be applied as a sanction for disciplinary offences.
3. Disciplinary sanctions or restrictive measures shall not include the prohibition of family contact. The means of family contact may only be restricted for a limited time period and as strictly required for the maintenance of security and order.

Rule 44
For the purpose of these rules, solitary confinement shall refer to the confinement of prisoners for 22 hours or more a day without meaningful human contact. Prolonged solitary confinement shall refer to solitary confinement for a time period in excess of 15 consecutive days.

 

[girlhasnoname]

To what end?
If the state has the goods the defense has the goods. Let's say John robs a bank. He's caught on video, there are eyewitnesses that identify him, he left his DNA on the counter, fingerprints on the robbery note, and the license plate of his Yugo was captured on exterior video as he made his escape.
Now his lawyers publicly say they believe John is innocent, seek no plea deal, plead not guilty, demand a speedy trial, and point out that one of the witnesses inaccurately thought John had hazel eyes.
I don't get it.

I'll take a stab at that question as best I can:

R&B would be the Defense hero's of the century if they secured a Not Guilty verdict for RA. News articles, TV appearances, book deals, movies deals, etc. would be pouring in by the end of the day. It probably still will if RA is found Guilty, but it just doesn't carry the same cache'.

I don't know that any of us can say emphatically that RA has never asked for a plea deal or not. How would we even know that, it would fall under the protection of Client/Attorney privilege. Maybe during the rantings of confessions, eating paper docs and other substances, he may have, or not. IDK I've never seen any Defense attorney state publicly that their client was guilty either.

4 young pre teen and teen girls cannot and will not be expected to recall exact eye color of a suspect they passed for 5 seconds. They accurately described his clothing and height, which is more important. One witness said RA walked with his 'head down and with purpose' hands in his pockets.

ALL JMO

 

[layer]

RA has civil rights even beyond the SCOIN, why wasn't the ACLU notified to do an investigation? It's been highly publicized and talked about for over a year now. I believe it's because this is yet another gross over exaggeration made by the Defense in order to garner sympathy for RA and to also suppress incriminating confessions.

Not a fan of the ACLU, but there is this from 2021:
IDOC Commits Massive Constitutional Rights Violations on Solitary Units To Terrorize Prisoners

 

[zh0r4]

Yes I agree. That's why I want to know how they received this and Axiom specifically. Since it's not a software they have access to I wonder if it it's something they have an extraction for.

The software extracts cell phone data. It is worded a bit weird in the doc, but when they say “to open the extraction” they mean to access the data retrieved (or extracted) via the software (Axiom in this case). In the ss you provided on the Axiom software, it says

“Often there are many people involved in an investigation who you need to share your findings with. Portable case enables you to share your data with other stakeholders such as lawyers or investigators who can work with you by adding their own tags, comments, and profiles to assist with the investigation.”

IMO this would mean LE+the prosecution+investigators and would fall under investigative material that would be provided (handed to) the defense.

 

[WildHuncher]

DBM

Brain fart from Hell.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

You know I luv ya' SSN, but I don't believe RA is mentally ill IMO, I think it was stated here not too long ago he had been treated for depression like millions of people.

Quite the opposite, he maintained solid employment, a long term marriage, financially responsible (paid off home), no arrest record to speak of. Happy helpful CVS Mgr/Pharm Tech, and local pool tournament player and beer drinker.

Based on the evidence I've seen so far, RA is a child sexual predator and murderer IMO. Most people would have never seen this side of RA, and I believe that is why he was able to 'hide in plain sight' for so long.

No hurting allowed, ever. Hah

MOO

I actually agree with you here.
I was trying to comment more on the fact that the defense has wasted time and money on building a fantasy, creating chaos, and defending themselves, than on sensible things like finding out if your client has mental issues. I failed at clarity, no doubt!

I will admit to going back and forth on RA’s mental health over time though. I had a hard time imagining a sane person eating poop to try and appear crazy. At this point in time, I don’t think he’s insane, I think he is an active participant in the defense’s strategy to get him off on a legal technicality. That’s the strategy because they have seen the evidence and know it is overwhelming.

 

[vinayd]

The software extracts cell phone data. It is worded a bit weird in the doc, but when they say “to open the extraction” they mean to access the data retrieved (or extracted) via the software (Axiom in this case). In the ss you provided on the Axiom software, it says

“Often there are many people involved in an investigation who you need to share your findings with. Portable case enables you to share your data with other stakeholders such as lawyers or investigators who can work with you by adding their own tags, comments, and profiles to assist with the investigation.”

IMO this would mean LE+the prosecution+investigators and would fall under investigative material that would be provided (handed to) the defense.

Yes that was the word. They should have been provided with a portable case.

 

[girlhasnoname]

BBM
Well.. In their own words:

Adobe Acrobat
Pg 6

30. As a basis for understanding the impact of solitary confinement for even two weeks on a human being, let alone 16 plus months, the defense cites the United Nations findings on that topic. The United Nation’s Standard Minimum Rules for The Treatment of Prisoners (Rules 43 and 44) prohibits the imposition of solitary confinement for prolonged periods (defined as periods of 15 days or longer). Additionally, per the U.N. Standards, solitary confinement should be prohibited in the case of prisoners with physical or mental disabilities when their conditions would be exacerbated by such measures. (Rule 45). United Nations G.A. 70/175, The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, p. 13-14 (Dec. 17, 2015).

From the United Nations Website:
https://www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Nelson_Mandela_Rules-E-ebook.pdf

Rule 43

1. In no circumstances may restrictions or disciplinary sanctions amount to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The following practices, in particular, shall be prohibited:
(a) Indefinite solitary confinement;
(b) Prolonged solitary confinement;
(c) Placement of a prisoner in a dark or constantly lit cell;
(d) Corporal punishment or the reduction of a prisoner’s diet or drinking water;
(e) Collective punishment.
2. Instruments of restraint shall never be applied as a sanction for disciplinary offences.
3. Disciplinary sanctions or restrictive measures shall not include the prohibition of family contact. The means of family contact may only be restricted for a limited time period and as strictly required for the maintenance of security and order.

Rule 44
For the purpose of these rules, solitary confinement shall refer to the confinement of prisoners for 22 hours or more a day without meaningful human contact. Prolonged solitary confinement shall refer to solitary confinement for a time period in excess of 15 consecutive days.

I believe RA was held in an open Pod type cell without other inmates, not locked in a dark hole somewhere within the prison. They were recording him 24/7 so surely there will be proof of his treatment while at Westville and Washburn.

He was able to have communication as evidenced by his IPAD type device he used, and then broke wit his communications with family. RA was allowed rec time, access to religious services if elected, showers, and food and water.

If RA went on a food and sleep strike after the terrible Discovery Dump by the State, that was not the caused by the DOC. RA was afforded medical and mental health care, and when suggested forced medication may be required, he seemed to have been able to get back (in June) to the affable, cooperative, engaged inmate the Defense itself described from Nov - April.

JMO

 

[layer]

I think he is an active participant in the defense’s strategy to get him off on a legal technicality.

This strategy seems more insane than the stuff RA did. What legal technicality you got in mind?

 

[Ravenmoon]

@AugustWest

If ( big IF ) RA did have a short period of time when he totally broke down mentally while incarcerated, would that matter at all regarding the actual murders?
Isn't his mental health status on the day he killed the girls the focus?

As to his confessions, what criteria must be met in order to make them inadmissible?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This strategy seems more insane than the stuff RA did. What legal technicality you got in mind?

I was thinking mostly about trying to get every piece of evidence ruled inadmissible.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Not a fan of the ACLU, but there is this from 2021:
IDOC Commits Massive Constitutional Rights Violations on Solitary Units To Terrorize Prisoners

Thanks for that but I didn't see Westville cited in that documentation.

Look, I know solitary confinement is hard, jail/prison has got to hard on any defendant or someone incarcerated. There are arguments on both sides of this story and not one I am going to debate in this case. RA is where he is because some people in high authority thought it was the best solution. Maybe we will find out during trial, IDK.

What I do know is that RA is the Defendant accused of brutally killing 2 innocent young girls out for a walk on the trails. LE, ISP and FBI didn't just pull RA's name out of a hat to set up as a patsy. They've had plenty of others over the years that would have made more sense IMO. They have evidence that lead them to believe RA is guilty and that they can prove it.

The ones I am concerned about are Abby, Libby and their families. They deserve the truth and justice.

MOO

 

[justtrish]

Not a good look. Terrible optics.

I agree. I do wonder WHY this would be a request. This very brave young girl had the feeling something was very wrong and she took a risk by videoing this man walking toward them and then caught on that recording their voices and in that we hear them mention a gun and we hear this "man" say "down the hill" This proof from the victim that they were in fact abducted from that bridge by that man they recorded and he used a gun.

Excluding that is saying her bravery didn't matter. Her ability to remain calm enough and to think I should record this because this feels very wrong. This is the very video that shows us who did this and how.

If the D is saying their client is innocent, great. Then show that RA is NOT BG. Don't remove the very piece of evidence that the victims provided for the world to assist in catching their killer.

 

[Emma Peel]

As to the discovery's disorganized condition and omissions ... the D seems to be making a point of documenting the severity, the handicaps it creates, and consequent unfairness to the Defense.

The Prosecution knows - when deciding it's time to arrest for murder - that any defendant can invoke speedy trial. The Prosecution's judgement on timing has to consider the obligation to be ready to go as to sharing their discovery/evidence ... including being able to meet discovery deadlines. The P gets the discovery from the investigation.

Was the P assured by investigators that case discovery/evidence was ready to go?

Was the P under the impression that ... after 5 years of investigation and volumes of records from multiple agencies ... relevant discovery was limited to Libby's phone dump and the BG manipulations, a bullet casing with no custody chain, eyewitness statements, and HarvestStore film, crime scene forensics ... and that's that?

If so, why weren't all these critical PCA items organized, locked and loaded, ready to go with the first discovery submission? If you're sure you're going to get a plea deal done, that stuff needs to be ready for sharing w/ the Defense - immediately.

It would seem that FBI worked Libby's phone; FBI worked the crime scene, ... IMO, much of this late/missing discovery appears to be inter-agency record coordination failures. Did Command fail to integrate supporting department's (such as FBI's) investigative records into Command's case files? Was it 5 years of investigation with no coordinated back office?

Did LE and P got ahead of themselves bringing charges b/4 they were organized to deliver discovery on a speedy trial timeline?

I'm just asking ... I don't know how - practically - this stuff works.

I do know it's NOT okay, NOT normal, and NOT fair to throw volumes of late discovery in such an unorganized state at a Defense, and these latest discovery demands/sanctions motion is about making a record of that unfairness for the Appellate.

At this rate, rules of evidence hearings/arguments will happen while a seated jury sits in the back room waiting. If the Defense feels evidence decisions need to be appealed, that jury is going to be away from home for a long time.

JMHO