Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[Ravenmoon]

I don't know WHY we are discussing people that are not on trial.

This includes, but isn't limited to :

Elvis Fields
Johnny Messer
Patrick Westfall
Brad Holder
Ron Logan

Right now, Richard Allen is about to be tried.

We are close, and maybe there are others involved. But from where we stand right now, no one else is being charged.


JMO

 

[susiQ]

Well. He made the statement on 2/14 2017. Next paragraph makes me feel this is another instance of someone inserting themselves. "After she put two and two together".

After Elvis made these statements to his sister, Mary Jacobs, she later became aware of the Delphi murders and put two and two together. Sometime 2-3 weeks after Elvis made the statements, Mary Jacobs and her husband (Troy) drove to Delphi. While in Delphi, Mary Jacobs talked to law enforcement about the things Elvis had told her on February 14, 2017, but “due to the mass amount of tips that were generated, her information may have been overlooked.

I honestly don’t see MJ as “inserting herself.” If I had a developmentally delayed brother that came and told me what EF told her, and then heard that two girls were taken off a bridge and murdered, I be doing the exact same thing MJ and her husband did. First, digest the enormity of what my brother told me with learning about the murders and fretting until I realized there was only one course of action. Remember, EF did not say he took part in the murders even though he admitted to spitting on one of the girls. He KNEW one of the girls’ names for goodness sake on the 14th! Said one of the girls’ “named Abigail.” He said he was on the bridge and two girls were killed, NOT I killed them. I suspect he was a participant in the staging of the bodies and sticks.

I don’t think we need to disparage MJ’s going to the police and make assumptions about her wanting to collect the reward money (not you vinayd). If it were me, I’d be high tailing down there to try and get my brother a plea deal. Unfortunately, didn’t look like EF wanted one. He was just happy he had a “brother” and belonged to a gang! It’s too bad he got in with the wrong people. I worked with developmentally challenged people for more than 15 years who were just lovely to be with. Too bad Elvis went astray .
All MOO.

 

[layer]

I don't know WHY we are discussing people that are not on trial.

I guess I just don't have much to say about RA. If he did it, he's evil. If he's innocent, God help him. If he didn't do it, or didn't do it alone... Can we go back to talking about other people now?

 

[TTF14]

Everything that MJ said is heresay.

Let's not forget about the reward money potentially being a motivator for twisting certain things.


EBM, because obviously,MJ is not heresay. My mistake.

JMO

Well, the defense team didn't just pull it out of the air. It's in Todd Click's Odin Report.

I suppose at this point we could say a LOT of things are hearsay... Libby asking to be driven to the trails that day is hearsay....the searcher saying he "saw two deer" is hearsay....Libby saying she didn't need a jacket is hearsay.....

How do we determine what's valid hearsay and what's invalid at this point?

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

Personification lol! Just saying we can't trust her testimony. Even if it was polygraph backed and true to her. It was not integral to this case.

Not for the State it isn't.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Well, the defense team didn't just pull it out of the air. It's in Todd Click's Odin Report.

I suppose at this point we could say a LOT of things are hearsay... Libby asking to be driven to the trails that day is hearsay....the searcher saying he "saw two deer" is hearsay....Libby saying she didn't need a jacket is hearsay.....

How do we determine what's valid hearsay and what's invalid at this point?

IMO MOO

Heresay is inadmissible AFAIK.
There is no question that regardless of how it was posed to KG , she drove Libby and Abby to the trail and the girls were murdered while there.
That is a fact.
There is evidence that links RA to the crime.
That is a fact.
RA is waiting for his day in court.
That is a fact.

BH had an alibi that checked out. So do PW and JM.

EF phone never left his house.

There is obviously nothing to connect anyone else in the above mentions to the crime.


JMO

 

[layer]

EF phone never left his house.

That's good info. Where did you get that?

 

[Ravenmoon]

That's good info. Where did you get that?

Well, now I will need to do a deep dive.

It was contained in one of the many documents we have read since the beginning of the year.

I will find it.

 

[vinayd]

Well, now I will need to do a deep dive.

It was contained in one of the many documents we have read since the beginning of the year.

I will find it.

Well since you are on it let me digress It's around here somewhere! His phone was at home for the day and something about visiting a relative?

 

[layer]

For me, this is the real problem with the Rushville crew. It's not like these are sister towns, they are farther apart than I initially realized. Is there evidence any of them was even in the county that day, let alone the vicinity of the bridge? If not, it's hard to look past RA.
JMHO

 

[layer]

Well, now I will need to do a deep dive.

It was contained in one of the many documents we have read since the beginning of the year.

I will find it.

I was afraid you'd say that. I intended to add "If you know it's around don't waste time digging it back out." It's almost impossible to keep things straight in this dang case.

 

[TTF14]

EF phone never left his house.

So now you DO believe what's in the Franks memo? (Page 96)

JMO MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The 'hearsay' point is covered in the line of SODDI cases I reviewed. This situation is not special to the Delphi case - it happens all the time.

The typical situation is that police receive a tip that someone heard someone say they did it, or maybe they heard someone say threatening words about the victim. Later the police charge the defendant. The defendant gets the discovery, finds the tip, and tries to make a defence that the person named in the tip is the real killer.

This is generally not allowed unless you have evidence directly tying the alternate suspect to the crime. Maybe some forensics, digital evidence etc

Indiana Authorities in this post.

 

[layer]

The 'hearsay' point is covered in the line of SODDI cases I reviewed.

Just out of curiosity, did you review any cases where the other dude actually did it?
Would that be TODADI?

 

[vinayd]

Pg 95 & 96 of the Franks gotta get in those CYA footnotes:


FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

Pg 96:

On August 29, 2018, Ferency and Murphy interviewed Rod Abrams. When asked where he and Elvis were on February 13, 2017, Rod Abrams said that he, Elvis and Ned Smith were in Muncie on that day visiting a sick friend at the hospital.

127
Autobiographical memory must be in the water in Rushville as Rod Abrams, when interviewed, was able to remember exactly where he was 562 days earlier. In addition to remembering that they were at the hospital in Muncie, Rod
also stated that both he and Elvis had their phones with them. When told that law enforcement would check cell phone records to see if Rod was actually at the hospital in Muncie, Rod explained that “hospitals cut cell reception on phones because they interfere with hospital equipment.” So, their phones probably would not show that
they were at the hospital in Muncie.”
128 In Supplement #542, “Joyce Moffitt Interview” provided in discovery, handwritten notes, presumably of law
enforcement state the following: “Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrams – not in Muncie on 2/13/2017 at hospital.” This was the conclusion of law enforcement, and obviously Rod Abrams’s ridiculous statement that their phone records
would not confirm that their phones were at the hospital because of hospital equipment is common sense evidence that Rod Abrams was lying as well.

he Phone Problem.
On February 13, 2017, phone records apparently show that Elvis’s phone stayed in the
same place in Rushville from approximately 10:30 am until approximately 7:30 pm.

129 Phone records also show that Elvis, for some reason, did not use his phone whatsoever for roughly 9
hours. Elvis told law enforcement that he usually kept his phone on him.
130 As stated in the previous paragraph, Rod Abrams stated that Elvis had taken his phone to Muncie to visit the mystery friend at the hospital. However, phone records show that Elvis’s phone was in Rushville
during that timeframe. The phone problem is two-fold: (1) Elvis’s phone remaining at his home for roughly 9
straight hours conflicts with Rod Abrams professed alibi for Elvis, Ned Smith, and Rod Abrams;
(2) in today’s day and age, it would seem highly unlikely that Elvis simply did not pick up his
128 Odin Report, p. 3.
129 The Defense has not received any phone records yet but are relying on p. 1 of the Odin report for this
information.
130 Elvis Feb. 27, 2018, interview at the 14:02:30 mark.

 

[susiQ]

Well since you are on it let me digress It's around here somewhere! His phone was at home for the day and something about visiting a relative?

Pg 95 of the FM gets into the phones, EF’s RAb & Ned Smith. RAb claims they went to visit a friend at the hospital in Muncie. Said they had their phones with them. Except, EF’s phone was at home from 10:30 am until 7:30 pm. EF previously said he usually kept his phone on him. There’s more if anyone is inclined to read it
FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

 

[susiQ]

Pg 95 & 96 of the Franks gotta get in those CYA footnotes:

View attachment 499558
FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

Pg 96:

On August 29, 2018, Ferency and Murphy interviewed Rod Abrams. When asked where he and Elvis were on February 13, 2017, Rod Abrams said that he, Elvis and Ned Smith were in Muncie on that day visiting a sick friend at the hospital.

127
Autobiographical memory must be in the water in Rushville as Rod Abrams, when interviewed, was able to remember exactly where he was 562 days earlier. In addition to remembering that they were at the hospital in Muncie, Rod
also stated that both he and Elvis had their phones with them. When told that law enforcement would check cell phone records to see if Rod was actually at the hospital in Muncie, Rod explained that “hospitals cut cell reception on phones because they interfere with hospital equipment.” So, their phones probably would not show that
they were at the hospital in Muncie.”
128 In Supplement #542, “Joyce Moffitt Interview” provided in discovery, handwritten notes, presumably of law
enforcement state the following: “Fields, Ned Smith, Rod Abrams – not in Muncie on 2/13/2017 at hospital.” This was the conclusion of law enforcement, and obviously Rod Abrams’s ridiculous statement that their phone records
would not confirm that their phones were at the hospital because of hospital equipment is common sense evidence that Rod Abrams was lying as well.

he Phone Problem.
On February 13, 2017, phone records apparently show that Elvis’s phone stayed in the
same place in Rushville from approximately 10:30 am until approximately 7:30 pm.

129 Phone records also show that Elvis, for some reason, did not use his phone whatsoever for roughly 9
hours. Elvis told law enforcement that he usually kept his phone on him.
130 As stated in the previous paragraph, Rod Abrams stated that Elvis had taken his phone to Muncie to visit the mystery friend at the hospital. However, phone records show that Elvis’s phone was in Rushville
during that timeframe. The phone problem is two-fold: (1) Elvis’s phone remaining at his home for roughly 9
straight hours conflicts with Rod Abrams professed alibi for Elvis, Ned Smith, and Rod Abrams;
(2) in today’s day and age, it would seem highly unlikely that Elvis simply did not pick up his
128 Odin Report, p. 3.
129 The Defense has not received any phone records yet but are relying on p. 1 of the Odin report for this
information.
130 Elvis Feb. 27, 2018, interview at the 14:02:30 mark.

You beat me to it!

 

[vinayd]

You beat me to it!

We should just keep the tabs open at this point lol!

 

[Ravenmoon]

Hmmmm , looks like EFs sister DENIED that Elvis made ANY incriminating statements to her until she gave LE a third interview in the Fall of 2017.
Checks out FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

It is on page 92.

 

[vinayd]

Just out of curiosity, did you review any cases where the other dude actually did it?
Would that be TODADI?

Yes That Other Dude Actually Did It! I remember reading the links @mrjitty and in one instance I believe they had enough circumstantial and direct evidence to connect the other dude. It worked because it was the truth.