Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[Melted]

26 terabytes of discovery is a surreal amount of data.

My buddy had a federal marijuana conspiracy case with 1 terabyte and his lawyers said that was a ton to deal with.

 

[Emma Peel]

5.Throughout this process, the Defense has inundated the State with inquires on where to find certain documents. The State has endeavored to assist the Defense in finding documents that they are looking for in the information provided to them. Often times in this endeavor the State finds that the Defense had the documents all along but that they could not locate them. The State has no idea why the Defense cannot locate the documents. The information is organized for the State in the same fashion as it was provided to the Defense. In order to find documents, the State has to dive into the 26 terabytes of information often searching several files before documents can be found. The Defense seem to want to circumvent that procedure and just request that the State find the documents for them. The State has done its best to appease the Defense.

DUDE. Please stop typing and just send the Defense the custody chain for the damned bullet casing. That's your (the State's) job. Right? Surely it's handy right there in your charging PCA file.

Thanks,
Citizens of the State Indiana

JMHO

 

[susiQ]

Ooh this is good stuff and exactly what I assumed was happening so I will highlight these:

1. That discovery is evidence in a case that the State intends to use at trial or evidence that tends to exonerate the Defendant, referred to as exculpatory evidence. Not all information gathered in an investigation is discovery.

5.Throughout this process, the Defense has inundated the State with inquires on where to find certain documents. The State has endeavored to assist the Defense in finding documents that they are looking for in the information provided to them. Often times in this endeavor the State finds that the Defense had the documents all along but that they could not locate them. The State has no idea why the Defense cannot locate the documents. The information is organized for the State in the same fashion as it was provided to the Defense. In order to find documents, the State has to dive into the 26 terabytes of information often searching several files before documents can be found. The Defense seem to want to circumvent that procedure and just request that the State find the documents for them. The State has done its best to appease the Defense.

10. That much of the information that the Defense requested is not even discovery in this case. Meaning that the evidence is not going to be used by the State at trial nor is it exculpatory to Richard Allen.

Adobe Acrobat

So, the State only considers the evidence they are going to use as discovery to be handed over. Are they telling us they are going to use 26 terabytes of discovery in the course of the trial that they dropped on the D??

And, with regard to the “Odin Report,” is it the State’s right to determine whether or not it is discovery and/or exculpatory?? Seems rather odd to me. JMHO

 

[AugustWest]

I know that too, that’s why I said the defense would be arguing that in court.

Well, you were wondering out loud why people were still talking about prison conditions. I answered.

 

[EOA]

Still on the fence but trending the direction of RA guilt - starting to think the outcome is predicated wholly on whether the P has anymore bombshell unreleased content on L’s video? MOO hunch is LE does not, or they’d have shown it by now but who knows?

Question for our attorneys and wise sleuthers here:

While I expect the D will argue plenty that RA isn’t BG by poking holes in the timeline, the witnesses, the lack of DNA, etc…might they also argue there isn’t sufficient proof that BG committed a crime? What evidence is required to prove the kidnap portion and do they have that BARD?

1. I realize one of the girls (A?) says “gun” at some point, but MOO is that the intent here is that A sees a gun in BG’s pocket and attempts to tell this premise to a perhaps unknowing L. If BG was already pointing the visible gun there would be little reason to state “gun”.
2. If it can be proven that an audible sound from L’s phone is in fact the racking of a gun, that then does bring the gun out of the pocket but is that alone sufficient to prove BG commanded them down the hill at gunpoint?

T constitute kidnapping, does it need to be proven that A&L were threatened if they didn’t comply and that BG accompanied them down the hill (or does part of the way qualify?)

Obviously if video exists of a gunpoint command and/or an accompaniment down to the bottom, that’s a gamechanger - but MOO I find it unlikely L could’ve kept video going without being noticed. IMO she puts phone in pocket and certain audio is understood while other audio is indiscernible and hard to context. LE has said her brave recording was 43 seconds long but that the encounter was ‘towards the end of that 43 secs’ LE believes “a man” is heard and “a man” is seen but ambiguous IMO if it is one and same man only or if possible others could’ve been out of phone camera range?

I say this because IMO there are a few scenarios whete the girls could’ve went down the hill either voluntarily or at BG’s suggestion, such as—
1) they were expecting to meet Anthony_Shots at the bottom or had even had been pre-messaged to cross the bridge then descend the hill where A_S would be waiting. BG as a sidebar could’ve indicated he was an A_S armed bodyguard who prodded them to continue the trek down but didn’t go down himself.
2) A could’ve IMO been so petrified at crossing that rickety bridge with the huge drops that she refused to return that way. Either girl might’ve been convinced they could find their way back detouring down the hill to the cemetery and back up the county road - or BG could’ve conveniently been at the end to ask directions of.
3) Girls may have been spooked at BG’s presence and thought they’d gracefully escape his presence by acting as though they were going down to a house below who was expecting them, again possibly asking directions to so-and-so’s house.

Is it still Kidnapping if A&L went down the hill on their own accord only to meet peril waiting at the bottom if BG didn’t go down very far with them or mislead them into going down?

 

[FrostedGlass]

So, the State only considers the evidence they are going to use as discovery to be handed over. Are they telling us they are going to use 26 terabytes of discovery in the course of the trial that they dropped on the D??

And, with regard to the “Odin Report,” is it the State’s right to determine whether or not it is discovery and/or exculpatory?? Seems rather odd to me. JMHO

Here's what the P did:
3. That the State made the decision to hand everything over to the Defense attorneys and not make a determination of what was discovery and what was not. That amounted to over 26 terabytes of information.

Oh, the irony of it all. Nick decided to play cute by dumping everything on the D, thinking it was one and done. Then the D got kicked off the case and P had to go through all of it again to make sure it was all there. Then he had to go through it again when it came back from the new D. I bet he won't pull that trick again.

So the D had no idea of what is discovery and what isn't?

 

[susiQ]

Here's what the P did:
3. That the State made the decision to hand everything over to the Defense attorneys and not make a determination of what was discovery and what was not. That amounted to over 26 terabytes of information.

Oh, the irony of it all. Nick decided to play cute by dumping everything on the D, thinking it was one and done. Then the D got kicked off the case and P had to go through all of it again to make sure it was all there. Then he had to go through it again when it came back from the new D. I bet he won't pull that trick again.

So the D had no idea of what is discovery and what isn't?

Got it! Thanks Frosted. I obviously read too fast, lol!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Well, you were wondering out loud why people were still talking about prison conditions. I answered.

Thank you for your answer. If I may, I'll expand on that a bit.
There are many of us who live in Indiana who are very concerned about the judges' (both of them) decisions. Just because both of those judges believe they are justified in their actions does not mean we feel they are. When we feel something is radically wrong, we talk about it.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Got it! Thanks Frosted. I obviously read too fast, lol!

Here's what I don't get about the P: this could have been his grand chance to shut those darned Ds up. He could have hauled them into court, showed his receipts that he did all the things he said he did and made the D look like bumbling fools in front of anyone who was watching.

Instead, he asked for a decision without a hearing.

... and would ask the Court to dismiss Defendant’s Motion to Compel and Request for Sanctions without a hearing.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[WildHuncher]

1. I realize one of the girls (A?) says “gun” at some point, but MOO is that the intent here is that A sees a gun in BG’s pocket and attempts to tell this premise to a perhaps unknowing L. If BG was already pointing the visible gun there would be little reason to state “gun”.

People will still yell “gun” anyway.

2. If it can be proven that an audible sound from L’s phone is in fact the racking of a gun, that then does bring the gun out of the pocket but is that alone sufficient to prove BG commanded them down the hill at gunpoint?

We heard him say “Guys… down the hill.” Insiders who have the file can hear a female say or yell “gun.” Insiders can hear a slide rack. That looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.

T constitute kidnapping, does it need to be proven that A&L were threatened if they didn’t comply and that BG accompanied them down the hill (or does part of the way qualify?)

I’m willing to infer that he isn’t sending them down the hill because he can’t squeeze by them. I’m willing to infer that going down the hill wasn’t in their original plan and the gun is a threat.

I say this because IMO there are a few scenarios whete the girls could’ve went down the hill either voluntarily or at BG’s suggestion, such as—
1) they were expecting to meet Anthony_Shots at the bottom or had even had been pre-messaged to cross the bridge then descend the hill where A_S would be waiting. BG as a sidebar could’ve indicated he was an A_S armed bodyguard who prodded them to continue the trek down but didn’t go down himself.

He’s still a killer.

2) A could’ve IMO been so petrified at crossing that rickety bridge with the huge drops that she refused to return that way. Either girl might’ve been convinced they could find their way back detouring down the hill to the cemetery and back up the county road - or BG could’ve conveniently been at the end to ask directions of.
3) Girls may have been spooked at BG’s presence and thought they’d gracefully escape his presence by acting as though they were going down to a house below who was expecting them, again possibly asking directions to so-and-so’s house.

I’m willing to infer they went DTH because they were ordered at gunpoint.

Is it still Kidnapping if A&L went down the hill on their own accord only to meet peril waiting at the bottom if BG didn’t go down very far with them or mislead them into going down?

Hell yes. OK, if exactly as you state, probably not. But the stated premises are in direct contradiction of the evidence.

 

[steeltowngirl]

LE has said her brave recording was 43 seconds long but that the encounter was ‘towards the end of that 43 secs’ LE believes “a man” is heard and “a man” is seen but ambiguous IMO if it is one and same man only or if possible others could’ve been out of phone camera range?

^RSBM
We have heard the image and audio may not be the same person. And we’ve heard that it is.

2017
David Burstyn of ISP saying that the voice and image could be two different suspects - at 7:40

2019
"Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls" Carter said. "This is not two people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

Delphi Murders: ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Libby & Abby’s killer

Exactly what that information is, and how it is expected to help the investigation is unknown at this time, but Indiana State Police have described it as "significant."

www.wrtv.com

 

[photographer4]

DUDE. Please stop typing and just send the Defense the custody chain for the damned bullet casing. That's your (the State's) job. Right? Surely it's handy right there in your charging PCA file.

Thanks,
Citizens of the State Indiana

JMHO

Right? Maybe the procedures on how disclosure / evidence sharing is done between LE and the state and then between the state and the D in all cases?? It seems a lot of the nonsense could be circumvented if people / procedures were far more organized, and consistent across the board!

 

[FrostedGlass]

I wonder what kind of a system the P has that can determine that every document is accounted for?

4.... Once it was returned, the State had to sort through it and make sure everything was accounted for before it could be forwarded on to new counsel. Once original counsel was put back on the case, the discovery had to be collected from new counsel, sorted through to assure it was all there and then forwarded again to original counsel.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[TTF14]

10. That much of the information that the Defense requested is not even discovery in this case. Meaning that the evidence is not going to be used by the State at trial nor is it exculpatory to Richard Allen.

Adobe Acrobat

RSMB. BBM.

According to Nick McLeland, who is not an investigator.

 

[TTF14]

I wonder what kind of a system the P has that can determine that every document is accounted for?

4.... Once it was returned, the State had to sort through it and make sure everything was accounted for before it could be forwarded on to new counsel. Once original counsel was put back on the case, the discovery had to be collected from new counsel, sorted through to assure it was all there and then forwarded again to original counsel.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Yeah, I call total BS on this. No way that happened! NO WAY.

 

[layer]

DUDE. Please stop typing and just send the Defense the custody chain for the damned bullet casing.

One inference could be that there is no CoC documentation to turn over.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Here's a good one:

04/26/2024

Service Returned Served Lacy Patton, Jr. served in person by Elkhart County Sheriff on April 26, 2024, at 9:30 a.m. Date Served: 04/26/2024

 

[AugustWest]

Still on the fence but trending the direction of RA guilt - starting to think the outcome is predicated wholly on whether the P has anymore bombshell unreleased content on L’s video? MOO hunch is LE does not, or they’d have shown it by now but who knows?

Question for our attorneys and wise sleuthers here:

While I expect the D will argue plenty that RA isn’t BG by poking holes in the timeline, the witnesses, the lack of DNA, etc…might they also argue there isn’t sufficient proof that BG committed a crime? What evidence is required to prove the kidnap portion and do they have that BARD?

1. I realize one of the girls (A?) says “gun” at some point, but MOO is that the intent here is that A sees a gun in BG’s pocket and attempts to tell this premise to a perhaps unknowing L. If BG was already pointing the visible gun there would be little reason to state “gun”.
2. If it can be proven that an audible sound from L’s phone is in fact the racking of a gun, that then does bring the gun out of the pocket but is that alone sufficient to prove BG commanded them down the hill at gunpoint?

T constitute kidnapping, does it need to be proven that A&L were threatened if they didn’t comply and that BG accompanied them down the hill (or does part of the way qualify?)

Obviously if video exists of a gunpoint command and/or an accompaniment down to the bottom, that’s a gamechanger - but MOO I find it unlikely L could’ve kept video going without being noticed. IMO she puts phone in pocket and certain audio is understood while other audio is indiscernible and hard to context. LE has said her brave recording was 43 seconds long but that the encounter was ‘towards the end of that 43 secs’ LE believes “a man” is heard and “a man” is seen but ambiguous IMO if it is one and same man only or if possible others could’ve been out of phone camera range?

I say this because IMO there are a few scenarios whete the girls could’ve went down the hill either voluntarily or at BG’s suggestion, such as—
1) they were expecting to meet Anthony_Shots at the bottom or had even had been pre-messaged to cross the bridge then descend the hill where A_S would be waiting. BG as a sidebar could’ve indicated he was an A_S armed bodyguard who prodded them to continue the trek down but didn’t go down himself.
2) A could’ve IMO been so petrified at crossing that rickety bridge with the huge drops that she refused to return that way. Either girl might’ve been convinced they could find their way back detouring down the hill to the cemetery and back up the county road - or BG could’ve conveniently been at the end to ask directions of.
3) Girls may have been spooked at BG’s presence and thought they’d gracefully escape his presence by acting as though they were going down to a house below who was expecting them, again possibly asking directions to so-and-so’s house.

Is it still Kidnapping if A&L went down the hill on their own accord only to meet peril waiting at the bottom if BG didn’t go down very far with them or mislead them into going down?

2023 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 3. Kidnapping and Confinement :: 35-42-3-2. Kidnapping

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

"Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force, from one place to another commits kidnapping."

So: (1) intent; (2) removal from one place to another; (3) fraud, enticement, force, threat of force.

Your scenario (1) would be fraud/enticement, imo.

I wouldn't even want to take a guess as to what the defense will do, but I feel the state has a pretty strong case for kidnapping. It's too hard a sell to imply BG is totally not involved.

 

[susiQ]

^RSBM
We have heard the image and audio may not be the same person. And we’ve heard that it is.

2017
David Burstyn of ISP saying that the voice and image could be two different suspects - at 7:40

2019
"Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls" Carter said. "This is not two people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

Delphi Murders: ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Libby & Abby’s killer

Exactly what that information is, and how it is expected to help the investigation is unknown at this time, but Indiana State Police have described it as "significant."

www.wrtv.com

Now, if we put those two statements together in a bowl and toss lightly, we will have another “word salad.”
What’s funny to me is that DC can make the biggest and best word salad all on his own, lol!
IMHO

 

[susiQ]

I'm hearing that music they played when the door was opened and the announcer said "A NEW COW!" and sure enough, there was an actual cow.

How about a goat, a baby goat!