Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #183

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I have not been following the thread, so I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I have a question in regards to the 4:33 am phone ping. Let's say the cell phone got wet during the creek crossing. Maybe not necessarily fully submerged, but just some water on it, or got wet under L's shoe on the ground. Something like that.

Without it being turned off, could some water have gotten inside and affected the function of the phone at the last ping around 5-6 pm on the 13th, then due to drying or movement of water within the phone, was able to function enough for the ping to work at 4:33 am? Any electronic people here who might know?
Good question.

First -- I thought it was stated there wasn't a creek crossing. Please correct this if it's wrong. I'd like to know. TIA

2nd-- From my own experience -- if the phone was an iPhone(s) perhaps not. Mine have gotten water in them plenty of times, even dropped in a toilet, and still worked.

My experience only. moo
 
Good question.

First -- I thought it was stated there wasn't a creek crossing. Please correct this if it's wrong. I'd like to know. TIA

2nd-- From my own experience -- if the phone was an iPhone(s) perhaps not. Mine have gotten water in them plenty of times, even dropped in a toilet, and still worked.

My experience only. moo
Thank you for the information. As for the creek crossing, IDK.
 
I wonder how often he had walked across the bridge in the past. Because as a Kid I would have walked that a million times over and not even given it a thought in the world it was sketchy with no barriers. When you reach your 30’s I suddenly look at it and think “hell no”. :D
If I ever crossed that bridge it would have been before I had any common sense at all; and even then it would have been on all fours. Are you kidding me?!?!? :eek:
So the fact he was old and overweight I can understand why he would be watching his steps -and looking down instead of looking straight ahead at the girls. He knew they was trapped regardless at the end there.
I guess I always assumed BG was trying to avoid eye contact to hide the unsavory things he had on his mind. Maybe I just studied too much body language.
 
If I ever crossed that bridge it would have been before I had any common sense at all; and even then it would have been on all fours. Are you kidding me?!?!? :eek:

I guess I always assumed BG was trying to avoid eye contact to hide the unsavory things he had on his mind. Maybe I just studied too much body language.


You could be right I just assumed he was watching his steps as it looked a bit rickety to my eyes. You lose your agility as you age I believe.
 
The coroner was young and not a medical professional IIRC. Even the coroner in the Daybell case, who had (IIRC) 20 years of EMS experience before she was elected as coroner, got it wrong, way wrong, initially with regard to Tammy Daybell. Personally, I only care about what the M.E. says, not the coroner. I also don't recall the coroner saying that, although I could definitely be wrong.

IMO MOO
Actually, I’m not sure but probably got it from a Todd Leazenby interview. He gives no specific source.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

 
Good question.

First -- I thought it was stated there wasn't a creek crossing. Please correct this if it's wrong. I'd like to know. TIA

2nd-- From my own experience -- if the phone was an iPhone(s) perhaps not. Mine have gotten water in them plenty of times, even dropped in a toilet, and still worked.

My experience only. moo

I'd like to know if the clothes Abby was dressed in (Libby's clothes, but not the ones she was reported to be wearing) were wet or dry.

I, too, have dropped my phone in the toilet :). And another one into a full glass of water. My experience is that they work "at first" but then everything gets all wonky. So, I'd agree that a phone that has been submerged in water CAN power back on. But would it power back on automatically (essentially stay on?), I doubt it?

I guess the question is if a submerged phone automatically turns off?

It's a good question/line of thinking.

However, I don't think the trio (RA, AW, LG) crossed the creek.

IMO MOO
 
Actually, I’m not sure but probably got it from a Todd Leazenby interview. He gives no specific source.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.


And in another interview (maybe the DTH podcast?) Doug Carter said he wasn't going to answer that question IIRC.

ETA: Correction: He was asked why the girls weren't found that night, and he said he was going to leave that question unanswered.

IMO MOO
 
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While pondering the things that Libby's phone could be able to tell us I had a thought. Has there ever been any mention of the iphone's accelerometer data in any of these legal postings?
 
I'd like to know if the clothes Abby was dressed in (Libby's clothes, but not the ones she was reported to be wearing) were wet or dry.

I, too, have dropped my phone in the toilet :). And another one into a full glass of water. My experience is that they work "at first" but then everything gets all wonky. So, I'd agree that a phone that has been submerged in water CAN power back on. But would it power back on automatically (essentially stay on?), I doubt it?

I guess the question is if a submerged phone automatically turns off?

It's a good question/line of thinking.

However, I don't think the trio (RA, AW, LG) crossed the creek.

IMO MOO
The times when my iPhone submerged into water it never powered off. I retrieved it quickly, so not sure if that made the difference. moo

Regarding the clothing -- that's been an interesting narrative and look for trial to clear it all up. moo
 
In her email to the P and D, she says: "That is the length of the trial, not "more or less."
That tells me they better plan their time wisely.
Ok, I was just wondering then, how does she ensure that both sides have equal time to present their cases? I understand their material must be super relevant and very succinct - but then who decides what is in and what is out? Them? Her? If they're certain they need more time, they cannot request it?
 
Richard Allen’s defense team filed several new motions in the past 24 hours. Rich Nye explains the new documents and more insights they provide into the defense’s strategy in the upcoming #Delphi murders trial.

Richard Allen’s defense team filed several new motions in the past 24 hours. Rich Nye explains the new documents and more insights they provide into the defense’s strategy in the upcoming #Delphi murders trial. #wthrhttps://t.co/bBlgEXaBO9
— Bob Segall (@BobSegallWTHR) May 1, 2024
 
While pondering the things that Libby's phone could be able to tell us I had a thought. Has there ever been any mention of the iphone's accelerometer data in any of these legal postings?

Is that what counts your steps and whatnot? No, I have not seen any of that. Excellent question!

IMO
 
I'd like to know if the clothes Abby was dressed in (Libby's clothes, but not the ones she was reported to be wearing) were wet or dry.

I, too, have dropped my phone in the toilet :). And another one into a full glass of water. My experience is that they work "at first" but then everything gets all wonky. So, I'd agree that a phone that has been submerged in water CAN power back on. But would it power back on automatically (essentially stay on?), I doubt it?

I guess the question is if a submerged phone automatically turns off?

It's a good question/line of thinking.

However, I don't think the trio (RA, AW, LG) crossed the creek.

IMO MOO
I'm more curious if it just got a little water (or, sadly, blood) inside it, rather than a full submersion. My Android has gotten a small amount of water in it before and it didn't shut down, but it did act weird for a little while before functioning normal again later. I'm just trying to make sense of the pings while not having the phone leave the area or be manually turned off and on.
 
Ok, I was just wondering then, how does she ensure that both sides have equal time to present their cases? I understand their material must be super relevant and very succinct - but then who decides what is in and what is out? Them? Her? If they're certain they need more time, they cannot request it?
I'm not sure but I think that's part of the purpose of pretrial conferences. No idea how JG is running this part of the trial.
 
Hi @vinayd I wanted to reply to your reply to me on the last thread, I’m still behind!

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182'

Bbm

In the State’s Response to the Defendant’s Motion to Compel and Request for Sanctions (3/17/2024):

8. The law enforcement geofence reports have been provided to the Defense to the best of our knowledge.

In the State’s Response to the Defendant’s Amended Motion to Compel and Request for Sanctions (3/23/2024):

7. In response to request 11, all geo-fence data in the State's possession has been provided to the Defense and is listed in the Discovery Releases. The agency responsible for the interpretation of the geo-fence data is the FBI CAST team; specifically, Special Agent Kevin Horan (retired) and Special Agent Sabric.

On 4/3/2024 in the State’s Response to the 3rd Frank’s:

The Defense was advised on March 4th, 2023, that State witnesses specializing in geofencing data would be ISP First Sergeant Christopher Cecil, FBI Agent Kevin Horan, and/or ISP Sergent Pete Glogoza. However, the Defense filed their 3rd Motion for Franks Hearing based on "newly discovered evidence" that was available during the first discovery disclosure in October 2023 and in the second discovery disclosure after counsel was reinstated. The State witnesses for geofencing data interpretations would testify that:”
View attachment 500655

A couple of weeks later in the Motion in Limine filed 4/29/2024

9. Any reference to geofencing and/or any testimony from Kevin Horan about geofencing or the findings from any geofence search that is not relevant or is for the purpose of confusing the issues or has the potential to mislead the jury in violation of Rule 401. IRE 401. Burden is on the opponent to show why it is relevant. Relevant evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by its prejudicial effect. Evidence may be excluded if it confuses the issues.
View attachment 500656

What happened between 4/3 and 4/29 when the P filed the Motion in Limine seemingly trying to silence 2 LEOs, including one of the FBI agents mentioned in the state’s previously filing who they said would testify the D’s concerns about geofencing were misconstrued/not applicable?


This is all AFTER this was cited by the D in the 3rd Frank’s Motion on 3/13/2024

8. Specifically, the defense received certain geofencing evidence that at least 3 persons were in or around the crime scene at a time while the murders were taking place (according to law enforcement timelines) and none of the owners of the phones have any connection to Richard Allen.

9. This geofencing evidence would provide evidence of any of the following scenarios:
a. Those persons walking with the phones are witnesses that would have observed the murders as they were taking place and none of them have identified Richard Allen; or

b. Those persons walking with the phones were witnesses who observed nothing, as the murders did not take place the afternoon of February 13, 2023, but the victims were taken to the crime scene after the search was called off.

c. Those persons walking with the phones were participants in the murders.

10. Said geofencing evidence was so important to somebody involved in the investigation that they created a map and plotted the movements of these persons, including movements that show that at least one of these persons was within 60-100 yards of the crime scene at a time while the murders would have been committed according to law enforcement's timelines. The phones, once again, had no connection to Richard Allen.

11. Furthermore, the map shows that the other two phones, and the persons carrying those phones, were in and around the crime scene between 12:39:54 pm and 5:49 pm on February 13, 2017.

12. That defense has sought out, but has not been provided, any documents or reports that contradict or refutes said geofencing evidence, but have not found such evidence, nor has the prosecutor provided any when defense requested reports on said geofencing.
View attachment 500657
View attachment 500658


In my opinion, the chronological order of these mentions of the FBI’s geofencing then the Motion in Limine, almost sounds like at least (Ret) Agent Horan’s geofencing analysis does not support RA as a suspect in the area at the time of the murders. Otherwise the P would be citing the FBI reports and definitely wouldn’t be mentioning any of it in the Motion in Limine. IANAL but if I was a juror this sequence of filings on the geofencing data specifically wouldn’t convince me beyond a reasonable doubt, exactly the opposite.

Who is the state’s geofencing witness now? Is there support re: geofencing data that RA is a suspect or not? Why are 2 LEOs listed in the P’s Motion in Limine?

AJMO


Sources:
3rd Franks Motion
filed by Baldwin 3/13/2024 p. 2 & 3
Third Franks Notice & Request For Franks Hearing
State's response to defendant's motion to compel and request for sanctions
filed by Mcleland 3/17/2024
Adobe Acrobat
STATE'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S AMENDED MOTION TO COMPEL AND REQUEST FOR SANCTIONS p. 3 &4
filed by Mcleland 3/23/2024 10:29PM
Adobe Acrobat
States response to the 3rd Franks
filed by Mcleland 4/3/2024 p. 3
State’s Response to 3rd Franks Motion
Motion in Limine
filed by Mcleland 4/29/2024
Adobe Acrobat
Super well thought out response! Gotta wonder if the lawyers on either side have people to read our forums to get a sense of what a juror might want to know / question / or call hogwash!
 
Hi @vinayd I wanted to reply to your reply to me on the last thread, I’m still behind!

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182'

Bbm

In the State’s Response to the Defendant’s Motion to Compel and Request for Sanctions (3/17/2024):

8. The law enforcement geofence reports have been provided to the Defense to the best of our knowledge.

In the State’s Response to the Defendant’s Amended Motion to Compel and Request for Sanctions (3/23/2024):

7. In response to request 11, all geo-fence data in the State's possession has been provided to the Defense and is listed in the Discovery Releases. The agency responsible for the interpretation of the geo-fence data is the FBI CAST team; specifically, Special Agent Kevin Horan (retired) and Special Agent Sabric.

On 4/3/2024 in the State’s Response to the 3rd Frank’s:

The Defense was advised on March 4th, 2023, that State witnesses specializing in geofencing data would be ISP First Sergeant Christopher Cecil, FBI Agent Kevin Horan, and/or ISP Sergent Pete Glogoza. However, the Defense filed their 3rd Motion for Franks Hearing based on "newly discovered evidence" that was available during the first discovery disclosure in October 2023 and in the second discovery disclosure after counsel was reinstated. The State witnesses for geofencing data interpretations would testify that:”
View attachment 500655

A couple of weeks later in the Motion in Limine filed 4/29/2024

9. Any reference to geofencing and/or any testimony from Kevin Horan about geofencing or the findings from any geofence search that is not relevant or is for the purpose of confusing the issues or has the potential to mislead the jury in violation of Rule 401. IRE 401. Burden is on the opponent to show why it is relevant. Relevant evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by its prejudicial effect. Evidence may be excluded if it confuses the issues.
View attachment 500656

What happened between 4/3 and 4/29 when the P filed the Motion in Limine seemingly trying to silence 2 LEOs, including one of the FBI agents mentioned in the state’s previously filing who they said would testify the D’s concerns about geofencing were misconstrued/not applicable?


This is all AFTER this was cited by the D in the 3rd Frank’s Motion on 3/13/2024

8. Specifically, the defense received certain geofencing evidence that at least 3 persons were in or around the crime scene at a time while the murders were taking place (according to law enforcement timelines) and none of the owners of the phones have any connection to Richard Allen.

9. This geofencing evidence would provide evidence of any of the following scenarios:
a. Those persons walking with the phones are witnesses that would have observed the murders as they were taking place and none of them have identified Richard Allen; or

b. Those persons walking with the phones were witnesses who observed nothing, as the murders did not take place the afternoon of February 13, 2023, but the victims were taken to the crime scene after the search was called off.

c. Those persons walking with the phones were participants in the murders.

10. Said geofencing evidence was so important to somebody involved in the investigation that they created a map and plotted the movements of these persons, including movements that show that at least one of these persons was within 60-100 yards of the crime scene at a time while the murders would have been committed according to law enforcement's timelines. The phones, once again, had no connection to Richard Allen.

11. Furthermore, the map shows that the other two phones, and the persons carrying those phones, were in and around the crime scene between 12:39:54 pm and 5:49 pm on February 13, 2017.

12. That defense has sought out, but has not been provided, any documents or reports that contradict or refutes said geofencing evidence, but have not found such evidence, nor has the prosecutor provided any when defense requested reports on said geofencing.
View attachment 500657
View attachment 500658


In my opinion, the chronological order of these mentions of the FBI’s geofencing then the Motion in Limine, almost sounds like at least (Ret) Agent Horan’s geofencing analysis does not support RA as a suspect in the area at the time of the murders. Otherwise the P would be citing the FBI reports and definitely wouldn’t be mentioning any of it in the Motion in Limine. IANAL but if I was a juror this sequence of filings on the geofencing data specifically wouldn’t convince me beyond a reasonable doubt, exactly the opposite.

Who is the state’s geofencing witness now? Is there support re: geofencing data that RA is a suspect or not? Why are 2 LEOs listed in the P’s Motion in Limine?

AJMO


Sources:
3rd Franks Motion
filed by Baldwin 3/13/2024 p. 2 & 3
Third Franks Notice & Request For Franks Hearing
State's response to defendant's motion to compel and request for sanctions
filed by Mcleland 3/17/2024
Adobe Acrobat
STATE'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S AMENDED MOTION TO COMPEL AND REQUEST FOR SANCTIONS p. 3 &4
filed by Mcleland 3/23/2024 10:29PM
Adobe Acrobat
States response to the 3rd Franks
filed by Mcleland 4/3/2024 p. 3
State’s Response to 3rd Franks Motion
Motion in Limine
filed by Mcleland 4/29/2024
Adobe Acrobat
Some of us might recognize Horan's name from another case we followed. Mollie Tibbetts.
________________________________________

11:55 a.m. Monday: Judge Joel Yates has called a recess for lunch until 1:15 p.m. Prior to that, FBI agent Kevin Horan was walking the jury through evidence showing the path Mollie Tibbetts' cell phone took on the night she disappeared.

After travelling eastward at a pace consistent with a 10-minute-mile runner, the phone began travelling southward, moving from 8:35 to 8:53 p.m. on Wednesday, July 18, at up to 60 miles an hour. After 8:53 p.m., the phone stopped moving, and then stopped transmitting to any nearby cell tower.

Mollie Tibbetts case recap: Prosecution rests its case after questioning investigators, state medical examiner Monday
 
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