Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #183

[girlhasnoname]

Are you suppose to move someone to a prison “for their safety” without a hearing or a lawyer? Do any of the attorneys here know if that is normal? Does anyone know of applicable Indiana law in this situation?

RA had no lawyer representing him at the time of the safekeeping order because RA declined a Public Defender and said he was going to hire his own attorney during his arraignment.

RA was making suicidal statements and the public outcry for vengeance made keeping him in CC impossible. No mental health experts there, no way to safely transport him. Judge Diener had his family's photo's and information posted online. It was a very big deal, not just Otis walking into the local jail in Mayberry to sleep it off.

It seems odd to me that people don't understand the reasons why RA ended up in DOC to begin with. It wasn't a grand conspiracy, it was done out of necessity to protect RA from himself and the public.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Steps 5 and 6 seem too far fetched for me to believe...just cannot imagine it happening it that way...IMO

Agree.
The tight timeline by itself would render this very unlikely in my opinion.

 

[girlhasnoname]

We have to also remember there is a chance that bullet did not come from RA’s gun at all. .40 caliber is a pretty common caliber and matching unspent rounds to a gun is pseudoscience at best

Imo

Then we're back to ignoring all of the too many coincidences of the case against RA:

He admitted he was there that day, at the time of the murders to DD (2017) and later to LE during his Oct 13th (2022) interview
RA himself described wearing clothing identical to the BG=RA=Killer on the video and claimed by witnesses
RA looks identical in stature and body frame as BG captured by Libby
Backed his car in an obscure way at the end of building when there were plenty of spaces
A car similar to RA's was seen on video from HHS at approx 1:40 pm
Female group of Witnesses pass RA on Freedom Bridge walking 'with a purpose' towards MHB at the same time
One witness actually saw him on MHB and saw Abby & Libby heading in that direction at the time
Another witness sees BG=RA=Killer walking West on Old County Road N300 as she drove East wearing matching clothing and looking 'bloody and muddy, like he'd been in a fight' at approx 4:54 pm
An unfired bullet matching the make and model of a box of ammo recovered from RA's home during SW was found between the murdered victims at the CS land which RA said he had NEVER been on, knew the property owner (RL) nor had he ever loaned his gun out or had it stolen and can't explain why it would be there
One unfired bullet matching the recovered bullet was found in a wooden keepsake box on a dresser in RA's BR
RA confessed to his wife and mother 5+ times to killing Abby & Libby on recorded jailhouse phone lines
RA confessed to others (up to 20?) during his incarceration to killing Abby & Libby

I'm seeing bricks and a 10 foot wall here and we don't know half of the State's case yet.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Here's the motion from yesterday and a link to the document

05/02/2024

Motion Filed Motion to Enter Stipulated Protective Order Filed By: Allen, Richard M. Filed By: Indiana Department of Correction File Stamp: 05/01/2024

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

There are a lot of restrictions as to who can access or view the information.
(excerpts)
3. The Department of Correction seeks both to comply with the request and to protect itself from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense as described in Indiana Trial Rule 26(0).
6. The materials provided by the Department may be used solely for the preparation, trial, and any appeal of this action, as well as related settlement negotiations, and for no other purpose, without the written consent of the Department.
8. Nothing in this agreement restricts a party's ability to disclose the information and materials provided by the Department during the course of the trial of this cause.
9. The parties shall not disseminate the information or materials provided by the Department in any pre-trial extrajudicial statement by means of public communication.

 

[Megnut]

What were the circumstances of RA changing the time frame he was there? Did it follow a question from LE?

I ask because.... only the murderer knows what time the murder happened. To say he left by 1:30, how did he know they weren't murdered at 1 pm or 10 am? Did his adjustment reflect foreknowledge? Granted this attempt to alibi himself out of the park during the critical time period may have occurred after LE laid out the timeline based on other evidence, it's a fair question to ask. In fact, he may have changed his story when presented with information from the tower dump if his phone number wasn't found, after claiming he had been looking at a stock ticker on that very phone.

As for the bullet, perhaps LE didn't indicate that it was an unspent cartridge which is why he could boast with full confidence that he had no explanation for it being there, had not ever been there before, had not loaned his gun to anyone, because he knew he hadn't fired a bullet that day.

it is my experience in following trials that, when there are evolving stories, they're often the result of the accused being presented with damning, contradicting evidence, compelling them to modify what they're said before. Presplaing, resplaining and just plain inventing.

JMO

 

[Marzipan]

This post expresses a perspective so well! People get in the weeds; for me, recent overlong detailing of guns and ammo. Yet, someone else may find those very points useful. This convincing construct happens in jury deliberation, this looking at the overall wall of evidence. Will it 'hold up' in court?
Remembering, I was long distance driving toward home when radio news broadcast that two girls were missing and a search going on for them. Since then it's one day, one brick, at a time.

I see big bricks, and I see a wall. But some of the things we are talking about aren’t bricks, like one medical eval, or being treated for depression. There’ve gone I, in both of those.
I lean toward RA guilt or involvement. That LE is confident pushes me there. He’s charged.
But I’m still remembering how I leaned toward DR guilt in the Jacob Wetterling case and he was innocent. It was someone else, DR was not involved. There were a couple of bricks for DR. But I was looking at this whole web of other things— he lived with his parents in his 30s/40s, he was involved with some credibly accused church leaders, he was home alone that night while his parents were traveling. He didn’t help search even though the abduction occurred at his property. (You’re damned if you do help as well.) He worked with children. He was different.
—-ETA — And for heaven’s sake, a dog sniffed death in a trunk at the house. That felt like a big brick.—-
Which of those are bricks? Maybe friendship with a pedo priest. But he was raised in that church. I and others saw bricks where there was the same dust many have. We said harsh things. We accused him of killing Jacob.
In that case, he was only named POI but it was HELL for him. In this case, RA is charged and we know some evidence.
It’s not a betting game. We don’t win a prize if we’re right. But if it were, I would have lost in the Wetterling case, and it was partly because of all the dust that looked like bricks.
Looking forward to the trial and hoping for order in the court.

 

[girlhasnoname]

What were the circumstances of RA changing the time frame he was there? Did it follow a question from LE?

I ask because.... only the murderer knows what time the murder happened. To say he left by 1:30, how did he know they weren't murdered at 1 pm or 10 am? Did his adjustment reflect foreknowledge? Granted this attempt to alibi himself out of the park during the critical time period may have occurred after LE laid out the timeline based on other evidence, it's a fair question to ask. In fact, he may have changed his story when presented with information from the tower dump if his phone number wasn't found, after claiming he had been looking at a stock ticker on that very phone.

As for the bullet, perhaps LE didn't indicate that it was an unspent cartridge which is why he could boast with full confidence that he had no explanation for it being there, had not ever been there before, had not loaned his gun to anyone, because he knew he hadn't fired a bullet that day.

it is my experience in following trials that, when there are evolving stories, they're often the result of the accused being presented with damning, contradicting evidence, compelling them to modify what they're said before. Presplaing, resplaining and just plain inventing.

JMO

I do not believe LE ever said it was an unspent bullet Megs, and I agree with you that is exactly why RA was so confident in spouting out the fact that it wasn't his shell casing found at the scene fired from his gun.

Lots of these killers 'explain' themselves right into prison which is a good thing. In that last interview on Oct 26th, RA spoke freely with Holeman. IMO, he just HAD TO KNOW what LE had on him, couldn't stand the not knowing, and now that is going to cost him the rest of his life as a free man.

Then again, he had 5 years of freedom he should have never had to begin with.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

I see big bricks, and I see a wall. But some of the things we are talking about aren’t bricks, like one medical eval, or being treated for depression. There’ve gone I, in both of those.
I lean toward RA guilt or involvement. That LE is confident pushes me there. He’s charged.
But I’m still remembering how I leaned toward DR guilt in the Jacob Wetterling case and he was innocent. It was someone else, DR was not involved. There were a couple of bricks for DR. But I was looking at this whole web of other things— he lived with his parents in his 30s/40s, he was involved with some credibly accused church leaders, he was home alone that night while his parents were traveling. He didn’t help search even though the abduction occurred at his property. (You’re damned if you do help as well.) He worked with children. He was different.
—-ETA — And for heaven’s sake, a dog sniffed death in a trunk at the house. That felt like a big brick.—-
Which of those are bricks? Maybe friendship with a pedo priest. But he was raised in that church. I and others saw bricks where there was the same dust many have. We said harsh things. We accused him of killing Jacob.
In that case, he was only named POI but it was HELL for him. In this case, RA is charged and we know some evidence.
It’s not a betting game. We don’t win a prize if we’re right. But if it were, I would have lost in the Wetterling case, and it was partly because of all the dust that looked like bricks.
Looking forward to the trial and hoping for order in the court.

Thank you for this.

How I feel is no secret to anyone here. I love your analogy of bricks and dust. I’ve been on other threads in the past and was “at one” in mind with others about certain perps, that without a doubt were guilty and there were lots of “bricks” to build a wall. Knew from the get-go. Messed up on one for about a week and felt horrible about it afterwards. All I see in this one is dust when looking at RA and bricks when looking at some others that have been named, in fact, I see a skid full of bricks. Someone admitting to being there (guilty knowledge of CS not yet disclosed), another implicating a former friend, some of them lying about knowing each other when the evidence is….they knew each other! At this point, I believe there is strong reasonable doubt concerning RA’s guilt contrary to most here. Wrong place, wrong time, comes forward because he wanted to help. I won’t quote Rumsfeld again , but I understand I can’t know what I don’t know so I’m looking forward to a trial and if the state has the goods, great! I hope it’s a fair trial, because I’m definitely concerned about that.

Nice that we all get to have an opinion here on WS, even if it’s unpopular .

 

[Justice101]

Then we're back to ignoring all of the too many coincidences of the case against RA:

He admitted he was there that day, at the time of the murders to DD (2017) and later to LE during his Oct 13th (2022) interview
RA himself described wearing clothing identical to the BG=RA=Killer on the video and claimed by witnesses
RA looks identical in stature and body frame as BG captured by Libby
Backed his car in an obscure way at the end of building when there were plenty of spaces
A car similar to RA's was seen on video from HHS at approx 1:40 pm
Female group of Witnesses pass RA on Freedom Bridge walking 'with a purpose' towards MHB at the same time
One witness actually saw him on MHB and saw Abby & Libby heading in that direction at the time
Another witness sees BG=RA=Killer walking West on Old County Road N300 as she drove East wearing matching clothing and looking 'bloody and muddy, like he'd been in a fight' at approx 4:54 pm
An unfired bullet matching the make and model of a box of ammo recovered from RA's home during SW was found between the murdered victims at the CS land which RA said he had NEVER been on, knew the property owner (RL) nor had he ever loaned his gun out or had it stolen and can't explain why it would be there
One unfired bullet matching the recovered bullet was found in a wooden keepsake box on a dresser in RA's BR
RA confessed to his wife and mother 5+ times to killing Abby & Libby on recorded jailhouse phone lines
RA confessed to others (up to 20?) during his incarceration to killing Abby & Libby

I'm seeing bricks and a 10 foot wall here and we don't know half of the State's case yet.

JMO

Well said!

Some of that maybe considered "iffy" and "presumptive" INDIVIDUALLY.......BUT... it is the preponderance of the evidence that will convict this person if they did it. When you put together 10 highly unlikely things (100% proof and "iffy"ies also), all lining up...the mathematical calculation adds up for an average juror.

 

[Justice101]

Thank you for this.

How I feel is no secret to anyone here. I love your analogy of bricks and dust. I’ve been on other threads in the past and was “at one” in mind with others about certain perps, that without a doubt were guilty and there were lots of “bricks” to build a wall. Knew from the get-go. Messed up on one for about a week and felt horrible about it afterwards. All I see in this one is dust when looking at RA and bricks when looking at some others that have been named, in fact, I see a skid full of bricks. Someone admitting to being there (guilty knowledge of CS not yet disclosed), another implicating a former friend, some of them lying about knowing each other when the evidence is….they knew each other! At this point, I believe there is strong reasonable doubt concerning RA’s guilt contrary to most here. Wrong place, wrong time, comes forward because he wanted to help. I won’t quote Rumsfeld again , but I understand I can’t know what I don’t know so I’m looking forward to a trial and if the state has the goods, great! I hope it’s a fair trial, because I’m definitely concerned about that.

Nice that we all get to have an opinion here on WS, even if it’s unpopular .

You are for real and I really appreciate people like you and your perspective. You have an opinion and can change it based on future information. I am also biased toward him being guilty but not sure, honestly, I am as open minded as you. I wish I was. I will try to learn from you.

 

[layer]

I am also biased toward him being guilty but not sure, honestly, I am as open minded as you.

It's not bias, you simply have what you need to feel good about it. It's not like you went into this wanting to get RA for some old slight or you have a dislike for middle aged short white men. That would be bias. As more information trickles out I expect we will shift our positions accordingly. It seems likely that we will all be on the same page, more or less, eventually.

 

[WildHuncher]

As for the bullet, perhaps LE didn't indicate that it was an unspent cartridge which is why he could boast with full confidence that he had no explanation for it being there, had not ever been there before, had not loaned his gun to anyone, because he knew he hadn't fired a bullet that day.

Or, being the killer, he knew the murder weapon was a knife and was making a perfectly true, perfectly irrelevant denial.

 

[Salah11]

It's not bias, you simply have what you need to feel good about it. It's not like you went into this wanting to get RA for some old slight or you have a dislike for middle aged short white men. That would be bias. As more information trickles out I expect we will shift our positions accordingly. It seems likely that we will all be on the same page, more or less, eventually.

Yes I think he is guilty a million times over but I don’t consider it me being biased as the evidence that we know so far supports he is the right man. I am positive that come the trial we will learn even more about his guilt and his actions that day.

Moo

 

[EOA]

Agree.
The tight timeline by itself would render this very unlikely in my opinion.

I made the original post and agree with you - noting in my first paragraph the scenario would fall into the category of possible but highly unlikely yet stranger things have happened in this case. Hopefully it did not come across that I felt confident that’s exactly what transpired!

 

[TTF14]

It seems likely that we will all be on the same page, more or less, eventually.

Agree! Glad you said that.

 

[FrostedGlass]

News outlets still trying to do their job; sorry guys, no can do.

05/03/2024

Order Issued Court has received "Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media" for a hearing on May 7, 2024, from Jeff Wiehe WANE 15 and Cyndee Hebert WTHR-TV and denies same. Court has also received a "Camera in Court Request Form" request from Anthony Greeno, True Crime Investigates, and declines to consider same as this is not a news media outlet covered by I.C. 34-46-4-1. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/02/2024

 

[photographer4]

I see big bricks, and I see a wall. But some of the things we are talking about aren’t bricks, like one medical eval, or being treated for depression. There’ve gone I, in both of those.
I lean toward RA guilt or involvement. That LE is confident pushes me there. He’s charged.
But I’m still remembering how I leaned toward DR guilt in the Jacob Wetterling case and he was innocent. It was someone else, DR was not involved. There were a couple of bricks for DR. But I was looking at this whole web of other things— he lived with his parents in his 30s/40s, he was involved with some credibly accused church leaders, he was home alone that night while his parents were traveling. He didn’t help search even though the abduction occurred at his property. (You’re damned if you do help as well.) He worked with children. He was different.
—-ETA — And for heaven’s sake, a dog sniffed death in a trunk at the house. That felt like a big brick.—-
Which of those are bricks? Maybe friendship with a pedo priest. But he was raised in that church. I and others saw bricks where there was the same dust many have. We said harsh things. We accused him of killing Jacob.
In that case, he was only named POI but it was HELL for him. In this case, RA is charged and we know some evidence.
It’s not a betting game. We don’t win a prize if we’re right. But if it were, I would have lost in the Wetterling case, and it was partly because of all the dust that looked like bricks.
Looking forward to the trial and hoping for order in the court.

Well written and well reasoned! Hope DR in the wetterling case has been able to move on.

 

[TTF14]

News outlets still trying to do their job; sorry guys, no can do.

05/03/2024

Order Issued Court has received "Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media" for a hearing on May 7, 2024, from Jeff Wiehe WANE 15 and Cyndee Hebert WTHR-TV and denies same. Court has also received a "Camera in Court Request Form" request from Anthony Greeno, True Crime Investigates, and declines to consider same as this is not a news media outlet covered by I.C. 34-46-4-1. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 05/02/2024

BBM

The only denial I agree with. Good grief.

IMO MOO

 

[Justice101]

Off the wall topic that came up yesterday in a meeting chitchatting with an acquaintance.

She said she was into true crime. I mentioned 2 cases: Delphi, IN and Moscow, ID. Amazing but she knew both of them up and down just like me!

I cannot tell you how many random people I have run into over the last 5 years or so that are also into true crime.

My motivation here is seeking justice for the victims in finding out the whole truth.... and then the perpetrator being convicted.

But it is just amazing to me how many people like us there are following various cases like this one to the T.

 

[mickey2942]

It sounds like RA is ready to take a plea, if one is offered. He has definitely been his own worst enemy lately, at least 30 people have reported that he has confessed directly or indirectly to his involvement in the crime he has been accused of, maybe the stress was getting to him?

He should definitely have access to whatever medical or psychological issues he has, that should be a priority, so that nothing can seem to be a barrier to his conviction.

Richard Allen reportedly made ‘confessions’ to inmates, guards; attorneys say he was in ‘state of psychosis’

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Richard Allen reportedly made “incriminating statements to both inmates and guards” during his time in prison awaiting his double-murder trial. His attorneys want…

fox59.com