Amanda Berry, Gina deJesus & Michelle Knight - General discussion #4

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Detective Klimpt said:
I'm wondering about something. First let me say that I think the way AC is getting treated in his cell is appropriate. However, being that he has not yet be tried and convicted, is it customary for a accused person in jail to be prevented from reading newspapers, mail, or having visitors? Is there something unique about his crime that has him treated this way? I am clueless about the rights of prisoners, but I've always thought they could be visited and receive mail and gifts from family.
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That depends on if people want to visit. Also, you need to have money in a commissary account to buy even a newspaper. Being on suicide watch would prevent library privileges.

On another note, our family has been waiting since May of 2010 for kidnapping and rape charges in Cuyahoga county. They FINALLY took it to a grand jury March of this year and still haven't done anything about it. I have no faith in Cleveland's judicial system. The man that did this to mini I'M is in prison for the same charges here in PA. They just Don't follow up on anything. I'm trying to sue the state, county and city.

I lived on w. 210th street and Lorain when all of the kidnapping charges happened. So, just 100 blocks from where these girls went missing. Not very far at all.
 
nikb said:
No kidding (re: the point about insanity).

The ONLY thing that scares me about life without parole is that it feels like it's not quite as definitive as the DP. I've ranted about this before so I'll keep it short, but when a 20 year prison sentence ends up translating to a potential 2 years served, it's hard for me to believe in any sentence. (see: Abigail Young, TX, Up for Parole on a Yearly Basis, next review begins 4/01/2013 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community for a case like that - her first parole hearing was 2 years into her sentence if I understand it correctly). So does LWOP actually MEAN LWOP? Always? I used to think it was completely silly that someone would get multiple life sentences until I realized the vast difference (IMO) of what sentences say vs. what they actually mean. I would rather see him suffer in prison for the rest of his life, but that leaves the possibility that somehow, some way, he could get back out, and that thought terrifies me.
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LWOP means Life Without Parole. He will never have a parole hearing.

I'm sorry, but these cases are nothing a like. Castro has a lot more charges against him. He will never get out of prison. Even if he somehow became eligible for parole, they would never let him out anyway. He is too great a threat to society.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYdEdwdn3RM"]Song for Amanda Berry & Jocelyn, Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus(Cleveland Girls) - "Forever" - YouTube[/ame]
 
Detective Klimpt said:
I'm wondering about something. First let me say that I think the way AC is getting treated in his cell is appropriate. However, being that he has not yet be tried and convicted, is it customary for a accused person in jail to be prevented from reading newspapers, mail, or having visitors? Is there something unique about his crime that has him treated this way? I am clueless about the rights of prisoners, but I've always thought they could be visited and receive mail and gifts from family.
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I'm not sure where AC is being held currently (I'm sure I could find it just haven't looked yet), but I found some general info for Ohio Corrections. I don't know if this applies before they've gone to trial etc. or not, but I'm guessing most of it does.

Here's the general info I found: http://www.drc.ohio.gov/web\mail_package.htm. In terms of mail I think the rules are the same before or after trial, but I think gifts/packages are more limited. There are whole companies devoted solely to putting together prison-approved packages of food and "sundries." Here's a little more on that for Ohio from one of the two vendors allowed to ship to the jails/prisons: https://www.ohinmatepackage.com/Cat...nageStaticPage.aspx?pageid=ProductRestriction, and more about the restrictions: http://www.drc.ohio.gov/web/administrative_rules/documents/9-33.pdf - depending on their security level they can get anywhere from 0 to 4 packages per year. I know there are restrictions including frequency, dimensions of the package, and I think the max weight is 30 lbs. per package, although I couldn't find details other than on the SecurePak vendor page. They don't really care who orders the package as long as it's intended for that specific inmate and it's within the guidelines.

From personal experience, a friend of my husband's was in county jail and two different prisons on some (non-violent) prescription drug charges, so I learned more about this stuff than I ever wanted to know. The time was all for the same charges, he just got bounced around a lot. This was in California and the rules varied between facilities, but the general rules are pretty consistent and seem similar to Ohio's. Both in county jail and prison he was allowed to get mail, with restrictions - i.e. you could send only a certain # of pictures per letter but they couldn't contain any "disallowed' content. I got one letter returned due to "nudity" when I sent him a picture from the summer before and his girlfriend was wearing a bikini. She was far from nude but apparently too close to it. :blush: Oops.

He could get newspapers or magazines, but only if approved and sent directly from the publisher. Gifts, not really. He could get the newspaper/magazine subscriptions or books as long as they were from an approved vendor (including Amazon so that was easy enough). He could get anything that fit within the rules for letters as long as it was on paper - for example news stories, jokes, etc. printed out from the internet. Also sent him Origami stuff once, but blank paper isn't allowed so I printed the directions on one side and wrote short notes on each sheet of origami paper.

This friend could have visitors but only during certain narrow windows of time, and only if you signed up in advance and managed to get through before the other hundreds of people trying to do the same thing. I was thinking the rules might be different for immediate family, but I'm not sure - no experience with that thankfully.

IIRC the friend was in county jail for about 6 months before he was convicted/sentenced. He could get the letters, subscriptions, and books before he was convicted, and he could spend money that he had "on file" in the commissary, but he couldn't get packages until he was convicted and assigned to a specific prison and security level.

I'm sure there are some variations, but I'm guessing the rules we encountered with my husband's friend are similar to the rules wherever Castro is being held.

And now you know more than you probably ever wanted to, too... :)

ETA: I imagine the rules do vary depending on the inmate, especially due to the suicide watch... so to answer your question about if Castro's being treated differently, it sounds like it. The above info is more general rules/regs/info about mail, gifts, and visitors in jails/prisons.
 
Cappuccino said:
LWOP means LWOP. If that is the sentence he receives he'll never get out. Personally I think its more definitive than the death penalty because when the sentence is death there are a whole raft of mandatory appeals, which doesn't happen with a life sentence.
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Hm good point, hadn't thought about all the mandatory appeals.

I wish I trusted the prison sentences more. Maybe I've just heard too many stories where someone who's supposed to be in for life ends up getting out, but given that it's been awhile and I can't even recall which cases I was thinking of, it's probably a fairly unusual exception.
 
FightTheOstrich said:
IMO, his height is relevant. He is short for man. All three girls were shorter than him at the time of their abductions. He may have seemed less intimidating because of his small stature. Michelle may have been targeted not because he thought she was younger but bc she was tiny. I doubt Ariel Castro would appreciate a woman looking down on him, literally. So I think we can assume it was to his benefit to target shorter women. Once these women were abducted, his height would have been irrelevant but during the abduction phase it may have been significant.
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He seems like a stocky kind of guy. He probably would have been able to overpower almost any woman, no matter what her height was.
 
KaaBoom said:
LWOP means Life Without Parole. He will never have a parole hearing.

I'm sorry, but these cases are nothing a like. Castro has a lot more charges against him. He will never get out of prison. Even if he somehow became eligible for parole, they would never let him out anyway. He is too great a threat to society.
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As mentioned in my prior post - I hope you're right about the parole hearing.

Apologies if I made it sound like I thought those two cases were alike or even similar. I completely understand why it came across that way, but it wasn't my intent. I should've worded it better. I just meant to give an example of how "prison" time barely resembles "real" time.

Just jumping off of your post - this whole discussion prompted me to want to learn more so I found a few cases via Googling. Some are similar to this case and some are pretty different, but they all involve sentences of hundreds of years. Why do these people get sentences of hundreds of years, sometimes on top of LWOP sentences? I only found one multiple LWOP plus 400 more years that was linkable and listed it below. I did find a few others, but not from allowed sources (links came up with ****s).

On the flip side I also found an article that said no one's ever been released after being sentenced to LWOP, but unfortunately that site's not allowed either because it also comes up with the ****s in the link.

Anyway below are some examples that make me question the sentencing in general. All MOO. I'm far from a legal expert so it's entirely possible and likely that I'm missing something here.

That last one especially - why on earth would someone need 9 LWOP sentences PLUS another 400+ years? If LWOP means without parole, why wasn't the first, second, or for that matter 9th LWOP sentence enough? Why did it need another 400 years tacked on? It makes me feel like it's just in case the meaning of LWOP changes down the line.

If LWOP truly means what it says it means, I'm all in favor of it especially in this case. I can think of no better justice than him being imprisoned for the rest of his life. I imagine the girls feared more than once that they'd be imprisoned for the rest of their lives, however long that might be.

Again MOO and I may well be missing something. I'm definitely eager to learn more if anyone has suggestions about where to find more info. Google search mostly brought up political sites about LWOP and the DP, but I wasn't able to find much that seemed relatively factual and objective.
 
nikb said:
That last one especially - why on earth would someone need 9 LWOP sentences PLUS another 400+ years? If LWOP means without parole, why wasn't the first, second, or for that matter 9th LWOP sentence enough? Why did it need another 400 years tacked on? It makes me feel like it's just in case the meaning of LWOP changes down the line.
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One is enough, but that doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't pile on life sentences, for additional charges. If somehow or other one of the life sentences got overturned, there would still be more then enough to keep the person in prison, forever.

Also again, just because somebody is up for parole, doesn't mean they would get it. Charles Manson has been up for parole for 35 years, and they just denied his parole for the 12th time.
 
KaaBoom said:
One is enough, but that doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't pile on life sentences, for additional charges. If somehow or other one of the life sentences got overturned, there would still be more then enough to keep the person in prison, forever.

Also again, just because somebody is up for parole, doesn't mean they would get it. Charles Manson has been up for parole for 35 years, and they just denied his parole for the 12th time.
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Thanks for the reply KaaBoom. I guess that makes sense on the multiple life sentences. If that's what keeps the person in prison it's worth it, I just think it makes it very confusing. I admit the logic behind sentencing and prison terms boggles my mind in general. I'm sure it would start to make sense if I studied it, but I think it might make me crazy before it made sense.

Good point about Charles Manson. I don't think he'll ever get out and I hope the same would be true for Castro assuming even if were to somehow get life but not LWOP. I don't see that happening, just saying it is a good point that having the right to try for parole doesn't mean he'd get it.
 
Detective Klimpt said:
I'm wondering about something. First let me say that I think the way AC is getting treated in his cell is appropriate. However, being that he has not yet be tried and convicted, is it customary for a accused person in jail to be prevented from reading newspapers, mail, or having visitors? Is there something unique about his crime that has him treated this way? I am clueless about the rights of prisoners, but I've always thought they could be visited and receive mail and gifts from family.
Click to expand...

It has less to do with whether a person has gone to trial yet or not, and more to do with the individual facility and the plan for the inmate. From what I understand, each facility can set up its own rules, and depending on the inmate, restrict the inmate's access to certain privileges. I'm guessing because of Castro's behavior and possible mental health issues, they are taking precautions.
 
nikb said:
As mentioned in my prior post - I hope you're right about the parole hearing.

Apologies if I made it sound like I thought those two cases were alike or even similar. I completely understand why it came across that way, but it wasn't my intent. I should've worded it better. I just meant to give an example of how "prison" time barely resembles "real" time.

Just jumping off of your post - this whole discussion prompted me to want to learn more so I found a few cases via Googling. Some are similar to this case and some are pretty different, but they all involve sentences of hundreds of years. Why do these people get sentences of hundreds of years, sometimes on top of LWOP sentences? I only found one multiple LWOP plus 400 more years that was linkable and listed it below. I did find a few others, but not from allowed sources (links came up with ****s).

On the flip side I also found an article that said no one's ever been released after being sentenced to LWOP, but unfortunately that site's not allowed either because it also comes up with the ****s in the link.

Anyway below are some examples that make me question the sentencing in general. All MOO. I'm far from a legal expert so it's entirely possible and likely that I'm missing something here.

That last one especially - why on earth would someone need 9 LWOP sentences PLUS another 400+ years? If LWOP means without parole, why wasn't the first, second, or for that matter 9th LWOP sentence enough? Why did it need another 400 years tacked on? It makes me feel like it's just in case the meaning of LWOP changes down the line.

If LWOP truly means what it says it means, I'm all in favor of it especially in this case. I can think of no better justice than him being imprisoned for the rest of his life. I imagine the girls feared more than once that they'd be imprisoned for the rest of their lives, however long that might be.

Again MOO and I may well be missing something. I'm definitely eager to learn more if anyone has suggestions about where to find more info. Google search mostly brought up political sites about LWOP and the DP, but I wasn't able to find much that seemed relatively factual and objective.
Click to expand...

A number of things come into play for those long sentences. Yes there is a always a possibility of change. What would happen if some moron in Congress decided that LWOP was unfair and that sentences needed to have time limits? Also each charge in a conviction has it's own penalty. So if there are 9 murders and 9 rapes you would get 9 sentences for murder (usually life without parole.) And you would get 9 sentences for rape. The judge has the option of saying all sentences can be served at the same time. But if the crime is heinous enough, he will say they have to be served one at a time.

Also there is a possibility that if there are multiple charges and an appeal will probably be asked for. If they win the appeal, there are other charges and sentences that might stand to keep them in jail.
 
mothert said:
It is strange that the ages of his daughters match the three girls ages.
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They were peers and knew at least two of the victims. Gina Dejesus was best friends with one daughter and Amanda Berry lived a couple of houses down from where the daughters lived. They also went to the same school together. Strange how no one seemed to think this was beyond coincidence.
 
countryfox said:
They were peers and knew at least two of the victims. Gina Dejesus was best friends with one daughter and Amanda Berry lived a couple of houses down from where the daughters lived. They also went to the same school together. Strange how no one seemed to think this was beyond coincidence.
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There we a lot of missed clues. I think that they were focusing too much on Amanda Berry's boy friend.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUiAhx5KiNA"]Amanda Berry's boyfriend - YouTube[/ame]
 
KaaBoom said:
There we a lot of missed clues. I think that they were focusing too much on Amanda Berry's boy friend.

Amanda Berry's boyfriend - YouTube
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I agree-they were focusing on him so much that they ignored other clues. I think they probably always believed the boyfriend was involved, even though they didn't have any evidence. That belief may have kept them from looking at other possibilities.
 
jking said:
I agree-they were focusing on him so much that they ignored other clues. I think they probably always believed the boyfriend was involved, even though they didn't have any evidence. That belief may have kept them from looking at other possibilities.
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It was the same in the Jaycee Duggard case, the stepfather was suspected right up until she was found. There was a false suspect in the Elisabeth Smart case too, I think he died in prison while serving time for other offenses.

It just goes to show, a suspect can look really promising, and for very good and logical reasons, and still the real solution to the crime can be something completely leftfield and bizarre. At least the young man in question has the cloud of suspicion lifted from him now, but given that he's probably had to live with his neighbours looking at him as a murderer for all these years I would count him as one of Castro's victims.
 
Cappuccino said:
It was the same in the Jaycee Duggard case, the stepfather was suspected right up until she was found. There was a false suspect in the Elisabeth Smart case too, I think he died in prison while serving time for other offenses.

It just goes to show, a suspect can look really promising, and for very good and logical reasons, and still the real solution to the crime can be something completely leftfield and bizarre. At least the young man in question has the cloud of suspicion lifted from him now, but given that he's probably had to live with his neighbours looking at him as a murderer for all these years I would count him as one of Castro's victims.
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I don't think public even knew anything about this young man in question.
 
countryfox said:
They were peers and knew at least two of the victims. Gina Dejesus was best friends with one daughter and Amanda Berry lived a couple of houses down from where the daughters lived. They also went to the same school together. Strange how no one seemed to think this was beyond coincidence.
Click to expand...

Well, we now have the benefit of hindsight. Before these girls were found, it was theorized many times Ashley Summers was related, and so far that hasn't panned out, yet Michelle Knight was found with these girls, and up until she walked out of that house, there was never any connection made between her disappearance and Amanda and Gina being missing.

I bet if it was really investigated, there would be others with the same level of 'connections' to Amanda and Gina as AC had.
 
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