Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[UKGuy]

call me crazy but i am one of the conspiracy theorists when it comes to this case. there are child sex rings prevalant in the colorado area.
i think jon benet was being molested by the Ramsey's high powered friends. i think her parents allowed it. the fact patsy came to the door to police in the same clothes as the night before tell me she was up all night, the redressing of underpants, the fibers on the tape being patsys, the way patsy flug herself on the JonBenets body to contaminate evidence, the randsom note, the golf bag that Jr had to have that was never checked, the possible 3rd person in the house ect all lead me to believe the Ramsey's had brought JonBenet home Christmas eve to be molested. did the molester kill her for making noise or for the fact she was old enough to speak out? were her parents angry and surprised their daughter had been killed and had to go into coverup mode to protect the molester and their knowledge or did they understand it "had to be done"
JonBenet's bed wetting and multiple trips to peditrician some with vaginal checkups are signs of possible sexual abuse.
i cant get past the bizarre randsom note that patsy could not have been excluded from. this family knew something and knowledge in my mind leads to involvement.

erinleigh,

i think jon benet was being molested by the Ramsey's high powered friends.

This is entirely possible, and is one of my theories, which includes the extended family, and a non-family member e.g. a high powered friend.

Prima facie we have a conspiracy and crime-scene staging. The latter suggests family involvement and the former that of the authorities with family friends cutting deals and doing favors etc.

On the abuse Coroner Meyer has been quoted:
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Now it could be argued that aspects of JonBenet's genital injuries were consistent with staging and not acute assault, but there is also evidence of chronic abuse including the red flags you cite e.g. bed-wetting, pediatric visits etc. So it does appear someone was abusing JonBenet on a regular basis.

Even if there were no ring there does appear to have been a conspiracy. All these people know that JonBenet was abused, but they have assisted in the cover up. So its not as if its the usual form of local corrupt politics involving land deals, planning applications for shopping malls, and condominiums etc. The conspirators know that JonBenet was being sexually molested and they colluded to bury the evidence!

Just consider the phone records are unavailable. Did John call Lockheed Martin to report a kidnapping, or did he negelect that so to avoid the FBI making an appearance? Why was the governor of Colorado phoned?

Or why would the Stines be willing to impersonate the Chief of Police via email, with the intention of influencing the public perception of the case, particularly when John Ramsey has stated he does not consider them to be friends.

I reckon its possible that some third party was either present or turned up at the Ramsey house to assist in the cover up and staging, alternatively advice was offered by phone.

This possibility follows from Patsy being ignorant of some aspects of the staging e.g. the size-12 Bloomgindales,

Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start with what - I will make it very simple for you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you in possession of or what do you know about the underwear that your daughter was wearing at the time she was found murdered?
A. I have heard that she had on a pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
Q. The underwear that she was wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you know where they come from as far as what store?
A. Bloomingdale’s in New York.
Q. Who purchased those?
A. I did.
Q. Do you recall when you purchased them?
A. It was, I think, November of '96.

I used to think that was Ramsey speak, but I'm inclined to believe that Patsy only knew when one of the tabloids splashed it.

I reckon this is supporting evidence of further crime-scene staging, why or when I am not sure, but it does appear to have occured. The when may have been when the Third Party offered advice or even took part, as per the wiped flashlight, or it might be when Fleet White drove Burke to his house, leaving John with few eyeballs on him?

I forget now but did Pam have a written/typed shopping list of items to retrieve from the Ramsey house, when and from whom did she recieve her instructions?

So you have conspiracy and crime-scene staging all in place even before the first policeman knocks at the Ramsey door that fateful morning.

So applying occam BDI appears to be the simplest explanation that clarifies the early involvement of the authorities, the early legal representation, the call to the governor, the non-involvement of the FBI, the constructive collusion of the parents and extended family.

.

 

[Chrishope]

I forget now but did Pam have a written/typed shopping list of items to retrieve from the Ramsey house, when and from whom did she recieve her instructions?

I think she did have instructions, but I'm not sure who from, and I'm not sure they were written. The thing is, Pam came in to cart away evidence, with the blessing of officials, on the 28th. The panties are listed in evidence inventory on the 26/27th. So while Pam may have carted away crucial evidence, it did not apparently include the panties.

However, we do know the package of bloomies was taken from the house, so it wasn't in JBR's underwear drawer when police looked. This needn't mean they were never there, just that they'd been moved before police looked. Of course it is possible they were never in the drawer. I wonder if they were placed within something else, by the re-dresser (the golf bag?) Pam could have taken them unknowingly, and the police may never have searched the golf bag - or a lot of other possible containers.

 

[UKGuy]

I think she did have instructions, but I'm not sure who from, and I'm not sure they were written. The thing is, Pam came in to cart away evidence, with the blessing of officials, on the 28th. The panties are listed in evidence inventory on the 26/27th. So while Pam may have carted away crucial evidence, it did not apparently include the panties.

However, we do know the package of bloomies was taken from the house, so it wasn't in JBR's underwear drawer when police looked. This needn't mean they were never there, just that they'd been moved before police looked. Of course it is possible they were never in the drawer. I wonder if they were placed within something else, by the re-dresser (the golf bag?) Pam could have taken them unknowingly, and the police may never have searched the golf bag - or a lot of other possible containers.

Chrishope,

I think she did have instructions

Sure she did, but I doubt that these were simply verbal. Consider the amount of stuff removed, and the attending officers red face, especially when she said lets hit McDonalds next!

This needn't mean they were never there, just that they'd been moved before police looked. Of course it is possible they were never in the drawer. I wonder if they were placed within something else, by the re-dresser (the golf bag?)

Well I reckon they were in the house but most definitely not in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Not unless you wish to add an underwear fetish to the intruders profile? Assuming Patsy was ignorant about the size-12's, they were likely placed inside something else, along with the worn size-6 pair, and possibly the pink pajama bottoms?

Pam could have taken them unknowingly, and the police may never have searched the golf bag - or a lot of other possible containers.

Yes , entirely possible, but its a moot point since with all the stuff removed I doubt the officer was over concerned. he probably just kept his eye open for bloodstained axes or clothing appearing.

For me the salient point is the aspect of premeditation involved. The collusion of the police in this is breathtaking, there can be no excuse for allowing the removal of crime-scene evidence.

It all adds up as a conspiracy for me!


.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Levi Page brought up a really good point during the radio show on Sunday. He mentioned that if the Ramseys are innocent, why did they send Burke to Fleet's house before they found JBR? If they really believed the ransom note, which used the pronoun "We" indicating there was more than one person involved, and that JBR and her abductors were somewhere "out there", why did they send Burke out of the house? Even if they thought the RN was a complete fraud, yet JonBenet had really been abducted, why would they not want their other child as close as possible to them?

Now if the Ramseys are guilty, it makes sense that they would send Burke out of the house, because they knew JonBenet's body would be brought up from the basement eventually. Even if Burke had stayed in his room, he still would have heard everyone yelling, commotion, etc which would've been pretty traumatic.

 

[BBB167893]

Levi Page brought up a really good point during the radio show on Sunday. He mentioned that if the Ramseys are innocent, why did they send Burke to Fleet's house before they found JBR? If they really believed the ransom note, which used the pronoun "We" indicating there was more than one person involved, and that JBR and her abductors were somewhere "out there", why did they send Burke out of the house? Even if they thought the RN was a complete fraud, yet JonBenet had really been abducted, why would they not want their other child as close as possible to them?

Now if the Ramseys are guilty, it makes sense that they would send Burke out of the house, because they knew JonBenet's body would be brought up from the basement eventually. Even if Burke had stayed in his room, he still would have heard everyone yelling, commotion, etc which would've been pretty traumatic.

Levi brought up a lot of good points on Sunday.

 

[vlpate]

I think she did have instructions, but I'm not sure who from, and I'm not sure they were written. The thing is, Pam came in to cart away evidence, with the blessing of officials, on the 28th. The panties are listed in evidence inventory on the 26/27th. So while Pam may have carted away crucial evidence, it did not apparently include the panties.

However, we do know the package of bloomies was taken from the house, so it wasn't in JBR's underwear drawer when police looked. This needn't mean they were never there, just that they'd been moved before police looked. Of course it is possible they were never in the drawer. I wonder if they were placed within something else, by the re-dresser (the golf bag?) Pam could have taken them unknowingly, and the police may never have searched the golf bag - or a lot of other possible containers.

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-pam-removed.htm

 

[DeeDee249]

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-pam-removed.htm

I am sure this was a partial list. She took far more, including JR's golf club bag, which she did not mention. The truth is that the police did not take an inventory of what she took (that list was HER list), and despite her complaints about being "questioned while she was in the house", police did not accompany her for the entire time, not did they see exactly what she took.
She was given a police jacket to wear, marked in large letter POLICE on the back so as not to "attract attention". Really? Cause it seems like allowing a family member of SUSPECTS in a child murder WOULD attract a lot of attention removing items from an ACTIVE CRIME SCENE.

 

[vlpate]

I am sure this was a partial list. She took far more, including JR's golf club bag, which she did not mention. The truth is that the police did not take an inventory of what she took, and despite her complaints about being "questioned while she was in the house", police did not accompany her for the entire time, not did they see exactly what she took.
She was given a police jacket to wear, marked in large letter POLICE on the back so as not to "attract attention". Really? Cause it seems like allowing a family member of SUSPECTS in a child murder WOULD attract a lot of attention removing items from an ACTIVE CRIME SCENE.

I agree, I don't think it is a complete list, I just found the vastly different accounts of how it went down interesting.

I always thought the police let her in because they wanted to see what the Ram's told her to pick up, because it may have given them clues to what they were worried about. I believe there were golf clubs mentioned in the search warrants. Pam was let in 2 days after the death and I'm sure the golf bags were gone through - maybe they even found something in them - not all the evidence has been released.

Acandyrose says she called the doll company and got the information about the string on the doll and it having to be taped down in order to brush her hair - I actually called them a long time ago as well and was told the same thing. At the time I was curious about the packing of the doll - the duct tape tip was a bonus.

 

[DeeDee249]

One of the things I would have liked to see followed up by LE was exactly WHO placed the order for the REPLACEMENT doll which was ordered AFTER JB's DEATH and shipped to Access Graphics offices. That matter has never been made transparent. This would have been a simple thing for a warrant to solve. Who ordered it and when was it ordered, who paid for it and how?
If the tape on JB's mouth DID come from the back of her American Girl Doll's neck, that is something forensic testing would be able to discover. And this could be the real reason Patsy's sister was asked to retrieve it. The doll may have been discarded or destroyed, and replaced with a new doll of the identical type. These dolls are STILL available today, and are made the same way as they were then.
I cannot think of another reason for PP to have removed the doll when she did. It wasn't going in the coffin. The entire contents of the house were due to be packed up and moved to Atlanta.

 

[UKGuy]

One of the things I would have liked to see followed up by LE was exactly WHO placed the order for the REPLACEMENT doll which was ordered AFTER JB's DEATH and shipped to Access Graphics offices. That matter has never been made transparent. This would have been a simple thing for a warrant to solve. Who ordered it and when was it ordered, who paid for it and how?
If the tape on JB's mouth DID come from the back of her American Girl Doll's neck, that is something forensic testing would be able to discover. And this could be the real reason Patsy's sister was asked to retrieve it. The doll may have been discarded or destroyed, and replaced with a new doll of the identical type. These dolls are STILL available today, and are made the same way as they were then.
I cannot think of another reason for PP to have removed the doll when she did. It wasn't going in the coffin. The entire contents of the house were due to be packed up and moved to Atlanta.

DeeDee249,
Good points. If the BPD have been doing their job properly. The tape will have already been analyzed and a match attempted against commercial tape. They ran tests on the cord, so why not the tape over her mouth?

Another person who might know is Fleet White. remember he deliberately returned to the wine-cellar to inspect the tape. Why so?


So assuming you are correct, and it sounds good to me, will the doll from which the tape was sourced been located in JonBenet's bedroom?


.

 

[vlpate]

DeeDee249,
Good points. If the BPD have been doing their job properly. The tape will have already been analyzed and a match attempted against commercial tape. They ran tests on the cord, so why not the tape over her mouth?

Another person who might know is Fleet White. remember he deliberately returned to the wine-cellar to inspect the tape. Why so?


So assuming you are correct, and it sounds good to me, will the doll from which the tape was sourced been located in JonBenet's bedroom?


.

Are you saying the BPD did not investigate the duct tape used on JonBenet? If so, you are incorrect.

 

[vlpate]

One of the things I would have liked to see followed up by LE was exactly WHO placed the order for the REPLACEMENT doll which was ordered AFTER JB's DEATH and shipped to Access Graphics offices. That matter has never been made transparent. This would have been a simple thing for a warrant to solve. Who ordered it and when was it ordered, who paid for it and how?
If the tape on JB's mouth DID come from the back of her American Girl Doll's neck, that is something forensic testing would be able to discover. And this could be the real reason Patsy's sister was asked to retrieve it. The doll may have been discarded or destroyed, and replaced with a new doll of the identical type. These dolls are STILL available today, and are made the same way as they were then.
I cannot think of another reason for PP to have removed the doll when she did. It wasn't going in the coffin. The entire contents of the house were due to be packed up and moved to Atlanta.

The doll manufacturer did not furnish the duct tape to secure the string to the doll, they simply suggested to customers that duct tape be used for this purpose.

 

[DeeDee249]

The doll manufacturer did not furnish the duct tape to secure the string to the doll, they simply suggested to customers that duct tape be used for this purpose.

I know. I have seen these dolls. If JB's doll DID have the duct tape on her neck, it was because someone put it there, as per the Pleasant Company's suggestions. And the glue residue from that tape would be detected on the cotton fabric of the doll's tan cloth body. There were some tan fibers found in the WC also, and the act of pulling the tape from the doll would send some fibers out into the air.

 

[vlpate]

I know. I have seen these dolls. If JB's doll DID have the duct tape on her neck, it was because someone put it there, as per the Pleasant Company's suggestions. And the glue residue from that tape would be detected on the cotton fabric of the doll's tan cloth body. There were some tan fibers found in the WC also, and the act of pulling the tape from the doll would send some fibers out into the air.

Not sure if I am supposed to post this here, but it's an excellent thread from FFJ about the American Girl doll. The picture with the rope always gives me the creeps. It also brought back memories of the time, 6 years ago, that we discussed this....(I am vp)....and I wondered if Patsy had already taken the old rope out and replaced it...leaving the old rope lying around in the basement. Were the fibers from the rope in the doll on that tape??

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5782"]Who Ordered an American Girl Doll, in the Name of JonBenet, on Januay 1st 1997? - Forums For Justice[/ame]

If I don't come back it will be because I wasn't supposed to link :loser:

 

[weeble]

The Ramseys, especially Patsy, was responsible for Jonbenet's death and Patsy thought her actions were justified through her own delusional sense of reality.

Here is an excerpt from HiddenMysteries ThE-Magazine Vol.11:

"However, after the Christmas party, something snapped in Patsy. In the early morning hours of the 26th, Patsy sat up at the kitchen table pondering what to do. She wrote the ransom note to carefully send a message to John, and subliminally to her father. She goes upstairs, gets the sleeping JonBenet out of bed, and carries her to the basement.

Patsy probably prayed, thinking of Abraham and Isaac, and the great sin for which she must atone. Just as in the letter, her intent in the murder was to leave clues, point a finger, at what she felt was the true evil, the true perpetrators, John and her father, or John and Fleet White. Praying, she slugged JonBenet with the flashlight."

Apparently Patsy was a victim of sexual/physical abuse as a child hoh:

 

[erinleigh]

ok this is a little out there but what the heck..
i found this website..no i dont believe everything it says but it is an interesting read.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887&page=2

 

[vlpate]

ok this is a little out there but what the heck..
i found this website..no i dont believe everything it says but it is an interesting read.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887&page=2

Interesting if you have just fallen to earth from the far away planet Ventura where all the aliens are named Jessie.:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

 

[vlpate]

Interesting if you have just fallen to earth from the far away planet Ventura where all the aliens are named Jessie.:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

I didn't mean you, as in the poster, I meant you in general. There are so many inconsistencies and outright fabrications I would have to spend hours disputing it. Funny the author did not take credit for the blog.

 

[erinleigh]

I didn't mean you, as in the poster, I meant you in general. There are so many inconsistencies and outright fabrications I would have to spend hours disputing it. Funny the author did not take credit for the blog.

WOW THX. nothing like a little post to make u feel like an idiot. i toought this board was about sharing ideas and things we found. not a whole lot of "fact" in this case since it never went to trial. most things we will never know.
i never said any was fact or i believed it. offered it as a read.
try to be more considerate of people feelings please.

 

[weeble]

ok this is a little out there but what the heck..
i found this website..no i dont believe everything it says but it is an interesting read.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=36&contentid=3887&page=2

I find this article interesting because of 2(A):

Ramsey would later tell Det. Arndt that he found a broken window in the basement train room during his morning visit even though initial investigation by the Boulder Police revealed NO SUCH broken window. It is thought that at the time of his 'visit', Ramsey broke, or cracked the window himself.

If this is true, then it's possible there really was no intruder. The window and suitcase must have been staged along with the footprint. Didn't Mr Ramsey reveal that he had locked himself out the past summer and had to break the window to get back in? Maybe that was a lie too