Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[Bartholemeus]

It's possible she was incapacitated in some way other than binding. Or that she was simply threatened to stay down. Assuming Jane consciously got into the car, how long would it have taken before she realized she wasn't being driven home? It seems the killer must have subdued the girls in some way, either physically or via threats unless he killed them very close to the initial abduction point.
Does anyone know if the fibres were from the upholstery or the carpet?

It certainly makes sense that fibres would last longer if inside nose and mouth.

Voluntarily Get in Car

CG and SS were going to Mosman Park. We'd assume JR was heading towards Shenton Park. 10 minutes tops. At some point he had to control them in between and maintain that control until he got to his rape/kill site (or whatever ritual he performed). Maybe a knife. Maybe a gun. Maybe be physical force.

Maybe a gun or knife would enable him to get the girls to get on the floor of the back seat?

Blitz Attack

I assume we're talking the same or similar MO to Karra. Would better explain fibres inside nose and mouth.


I think it's possible Jane might have been thinking "it' might not be the guy who took SS. I might be ok", especially if they guy was assuring her he'd let her go.

Ciara would have known pretty quick I would have thought.

 

[JBA512]

With the commodore fibres i would assume on a cut edge they would transfer easier than from just laying on the seat. What if the body wasn't in a commodore but was rolled up in commodore carpet or upholstery?

Knowing that they weren't common as a taxi but they would of been fairly common as a hire or fleet car.
I'm not sure how bad the upholstery would need to be before a fleet or hire company would get it replaced.

Any motor trimmers around the area back then?

 

[88mph]

With the commodore fibres i would assume on a cut edge they would transfer easier than from just laying on the seat. What if the body wasn't in a commodore but was rolled up in commodore carpet or upholstery?

Knowing that they weren't common as a taxi but they would of been fairly common as a hire or fleet car.
I'm not sure how bad the upholstery would need to be before a fleet or hire company would get it replaced.

Any motor trimmers around the area back then?

The catch here is that the particular model linked to the fibre was the latest one on the market. Would be unlikely that CSK had spare parts for a new car, but could be possible.

Good theory.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I know this has been discussed before but;

Allegedly Macro have narrowed down the vehicle JR was in that night to a specific model and colour commodore. It was a new release so it almost rules out the car being traded. Anyone have any idea how many of this specific model and colour were sold into WA? Ball park anyone?

I'd imagine it would have been a popular fleet car so numbers might be quite high.

But what else have they got to go on?

Step 1. Determine who was the purchaser of every single matching car between its release and JR abduction date

Step 2. Separate private and fleet ownership. Construct a list of private owners and sort them according to location. Obviously a purchaser who lives in say Riley Rd Claremont might been higher prioritised than someone who lives in Broome. Work through that list one by one and eliminate them. If DNA is in fact available ask each person on the list for a sample.

Step 3. Visit each company that used them as fleet and find out who had access to those cars. In Telstra it might be "every technician and middle manager up". In a auto parts company it might be "all of our reps and management". Go through employee records and make a priority list. Go through them one by one and eliminate them. If DNA is in fact available ask each person on the list for a sample.


More than likely easier said than done but if the info about the Commodore is correct then the CSK will be in that pool of people.

 

[GreenDevil]

Pretty sure this would already have been similar a line of inquiry for Macro. They would have had difficulty with large company's such as Telecom as the recording of who had what car at what time was / is very loose and unable to be tracked.

Expanding the inquiry to ALL Commodores would be nearly an impossible task to track down who had the vehicle at the time of the murders. It would take a task force of at least 50 investigators about 2 years to finalise that size of inquiry.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Tracking who had use of which fleet vehicles at the time would be near impossible. But what would be possible is a list of employees who had access to fleet vehicles at the time.

Just had a quick look at discovered 8,500 cars were sold in WA in July 2016. That's approximately 100k new cars for the year. Population 20 years ago was maybe 60% so if we assume a linear relationship we're talking ball park 60,000 cars. How many of those cars were either than exact same model, maybe 3,000 cars at a guess.

How many fleets included that car and how many people had access to those fleets? Maybe there's 15-20k people. It's a pretty big pool but if their science is correct, there's a high chance the CSK is one of those 15-20k people.

A lot of work and probably not feasible. Apart from cost the other shortcoming is the CSK may have borrowed the car from a friend, parent, wife etc.

But what if the CSK was a private owner?

 

[88mph]

I know this has been discussed before but;

Allegedly Macro have narrowed down the vehicle JR was in that night to a specific model and colour commodore. It was a new release so it almost rules out the car being traded. Anyone have any idea how many of this specific model and colour were sold into WA? Ball park anyone?

I'd imagine it would have been a popular fleet car so numbers might be quite high.

But what else have they got to go on?

Step 1. Determine who was the purchaser of every single matching car between its release and JR abduction date

Step 2. Separate private and fleet ownership. Construct a list of private owners and sort them according to location. Obviously a purchaser who lives in say Riley Rd Claremont might been higher prioritised than someone who lives in Broome. Work through that list one by one and eliminate them. If DNA is in fact available ask each person on the list for a sample.

Step 3. Visit each company that used them as fleet and find out who had access to those cars. In Telstra it might be "every technician and middle manager up". In a auto parts company it might be "all of our reps and management". Go through employee records and make a priority list. Go through them one by one and eliminate them. If DNA is in fact available ask each person on the list for a sample.


More than likely easier said than done but if the info about the Commodore is correct then the CSK will be in that pool of people.

Stop taking so much sense Bart.

The pool of cars in this search would be very small in my opinion. Less than 2000, possibly far less. Commodore>VS>Series 1>Wagon>White then narrow down all those delivered up until the abduction of JR.

It's taken 20 years so far, why not just follow that lead as you say.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Stop taking so much sense Bart.

The pool of cars in this search would be very small in my opinion. Less than 2000, possibly far less. Commodore>VS>Series 1>Wagon>White then narrow down all those delivered up until the abduction of JR.

It's taken 20 years so far, why not just follow that lead as you say.

2000 is a pretty reasonable guess but the problem is once one of those cars goes into a pool at some of the big companies like Telstra/Telecom, all of a sudden thousands of people have access to that pool. My understanding is back then Telecom didn't log who drove what vehicle on what day. There was just a pool and many staff members had access.

Telecom is probably the only really large company who probably used these cars. The rest of the fleets were probably mid size and down which means smaller pools of people with access.

If they have DNA then it's a good place to start to get a short list of people to test. They spent a *advertiser censored**-ton on taking the DNA of 2500 taxi drivers. I'm sure Mr Glennon would be able to find people to stump up some funding (although I don't believe the Govt would want to take this route a second time).

 

[Bartholemeus]

Question:

Around 2011 Macro determine the exact model of car JR was in on the night she was murdered. This was reported by media in 2015. I don't believe Macro/SCS etc have ever confirmed it to be correct.


So assuming they have the exact make, model and colour and that this car was a new release meaning there was a limited amount of them on the street and very few had been transacted (sold/bought) then why didn't police go public?

Macro have used the more than reasonable reasoning before that they don't want to tunnel people into being tunnel-visioned as to not consider other options but we're 15-20 years down the track here and if JR had these specific fibres on her body then we can be almost 100% certain the CSK drove this make/model/colour car on the night.

Why no press release and appeal for new information?

 

[hideoustroll]

Question:

Around 2011 Macro determine the exact model of car JR was in on the night she was murdered. This was reported by media in 2015. I don't believe Macro/SCS etc have ever confirmed it to be correct.


So assuming they have the exact make, model and colour and that this car was a new release meaning there was a limited amount of them on the street and very few had been transacted (sold/bought) then why didn't police go public?

Macro have used the more than reasonable reasoning before that they don't want to tunnel people into being tunnel-visioned as to not consider other options but we're 15-20 years down the track here and if JR had these specific fibres on her body then we can be almost 100% certain the CSK drove this make/model/colour car on the night.

Why no press release and appeal for new information?

Arrogance and incompetence? The tunnel vision thing is a bit of a joke considering how hard they went on LW. Or the heavy focus on taxis early on. I remember when they changed it so you could no longer hail a taxi in any of the entertainment districts, you had to get in line at one of the official taxi ranks and be ushered into a cab by a security guard. Pretty much everyone was heavily focused on a taxi driver being the CSK at that time. So for the investigators to not release possibly vital info because they don't want people developing tunnel vision? Please. That ship already sailed.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Arrogance and incompetence?

Maybe. But maybe they know who it is and are trying to get him to slip up. Or maybe there's a reasonable reason that we are unaware of.

The tunnel vision thing is a bit of a joke considering how hard they went on LW. Or the heavy focus on taxis early on.

Both were justified IMO. We don't have the benefit of knowing how open they were to keeping a parallel investigation. Even today, the most likely car they got into was a taxi. We know a whole heap of other stuff so it's slipped down the rankings but it still makes the most sense. And the circumstantial evidence against LW is compelling.

I remember when they changed it so you could no longer hail a taxi in any of the entertainment districts, you had to get in line at one of the official taxi ranks and be ushered into a cab by a security guard. Pretty much everyone was heavily focused on a taxi driver being the CSK at that time. So for the investigators to not release possibly vital info because they don't want people developing tunnel vision? Please. That ship already sailed.

I think the public were the ones who made up their mind and the police acted. Perhaps they should have been insistent that the public keep an open mind.

No doubt Macro have made mistakes. How bad is speculation. I think if they had their time again with some hindsight they would be able to solve the case.

 

[hideoustroll]

Maybe. But maybe they know who it is and are trying to get him to slip up. Or maybe there's a reasonable reason that we are unaware of.

Both were justified IMO. We don't have the benefit of knowing how open they were to keeping a parallel investigation. Even today, the most likely car they got into was a taxi. We know a whole heap of other stuff so it's slipped down the rankings but it still makes the most sense. And the circumstantial evidence against LW is compelling.

I think the public were the ones who made up their mind and the police acted. Perhaps they should have been insistent that the public keep an open mind.

No doubt Macro have made mistakes. How bad is speculation. I think if they had their time again with some hindsight they would be able to solve the case.

It's not that I think the steps they took weren't justified (tho the LW thing certainly didn't need to be the circus it turned into). It's that people already had tunnel vision so introducing new info to the public could only help combat that if anything. I do think they had the wrong people in charge at the time and the investigation has been damaged by that.

 

[BenJones84]

A place that you may get ahead
has rocks that turned from blue to red

 

[Bartholemeus]

It's not that I think the steps they took weren't justified (tho the LW thing certainly didn't need to be the circus it turned into). It's that people already had tunnel vision so introducing new info to the public could only help combat that if anything. I do think they had the wrong people in charge at the time and the investigation has been damaged by that.

They made a mistake by leaking LW info to the press. It backfired. Not only that it's questionable behaviour. If he's innocent they've done a lot of damage to his well being. As for his reputation, he was stalking women so he can't complain much at being a suspect.

As for Caporn, he should have been jailed for what he did to Andrew Mallard. He with held evidence that would have cleared him. I struggle to see how charges weren't brought against him for doing that.

In hindsight they should have released more information earlier but with a clear instruction that each piece of evidence released is just one of many leads and people should not now close their eyes and ears to conflicting ideas. I have no idea why they waited 12 years to release MM info unless of course it was a red herring. 4 years would be suffice but soon after JR's disappearance preferable. Ditto CG talking to a car. And I simply can't fathom how they lost trace evidence from JR's body.

Also they went to early on LW. They shouldn't have used a UC as bait at all and should have kept following him. Easy to say in hindsight but we would have probably known either way if he was the CSK if they held off.

 

[Basilisk]

2000 is a pretty reasonable guess but the problem is once one of those cars goes into a pool at some of the big companies like Telstra/Telecom, all of a sudden thousands of people have access to that pool. My understanding is back then Telecom didn't log who drove what vehicle on what day. There was just a pool and many staff members had access.

Precisely Bart. So from the CSK's perspective, driving a car from a large fleet after hours and knowing that record keeping of same is loose (to say the least) makes such a fleet car pretty good camouflage... Macro should focus on the big fleet; there might be only one. What government owned corporations do have is excellent personnel records!

 

[88mph]

Precisely Bart. So from the CSK's perspective, driving a car from a large fleet after hours and knowing that record keeping of same is loose (to say the least) makes such a fleet car pretty good camouflage... Macro should focus on the big fleet; there might be only one. What government owned corporations do have is excellent personnel records!

Obviously cops drove these cars too and during this era had after hours access.

It has been discussed before, but can you imagine if it was actually a cop who did this and it was covered up!

 

[Bartholemeus]

At the moment I lean towards this;

- The went hard at LW early. Made a few mistakes but circ evidence was compelling
- Once Caporn was outed as a fraud and some doubt crept in as to whether LW was the man, they started again. The brought in Stanbury to chase down every lead
- At the end the went circle and came back to LW as the main suspect. Even more so as before since they were now more confident they didn't miss anything. ** It's also feasible that they have another prime POI and LW is all but ruled out (such as MAP or KSP)
- Around 2014 they felt the odds overwhelmingly in favour of LW (or another specific POI) but didn't have the smoking gun and the only way to get the smoking gun was to use the media to try and get the POI to make a mistake. And if this suspect was LW they knew they would be playing the long game - years of building a false story and waiting.

But if not, surely they have to start that long arduous task of building a list of every private car owner and every person who had access to a fleet that contained that specific model. Maybe it's in vain because the killer borrowed the car off a mate, parent, wife etc, but after 20 years what do they have to lose? And if they have DNA then that's the best place to start testing and eliminating.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Obviously cops drove these cars too and during this era had after hours access.

It has been discussed before, but can you imagine if it was actually a cop who did this and it was covered up!

I just can't see a cover up. Almost 0% chance IMO. I don't believe a single person other than the CSK/CSK's have any knowledge of who the killer is. If they did then I believe it would have come out.

But in saying that there's a chance the CSK is a cop. Police forces the world over attract sociopaths which means a higher than normal chance of attracting a psychopath. One thing that doesn't match is it appears more likely the CSK is motivated by sex rather than killing. A psychopath would join the police force to get his hands on a gun and be able to kill people that appears to be above board. They would probably be aggressive and confrontational (generally there's a higher than normal correlation between people who seek confrontation and people applying to the police force). Our guy is probably calm, measured and secretive. A cop fits but my gut feeling is the CSK is not a cop.

 

[silver tongue]

the video surveillance that was installed in the main street of claremont may have picked the vehicle in question up
if the CSK\s was doing bog laps, id say it would almost be a goodthing that this vehicle would of driven passed the surveillance
well im guessing he didnt drive past the surveillance, the CSK\s back then seemd to be two steps ahead of the DS

 

[Simi]

BrainScratch has covered the Claremont murders - https://youtu.be/qHrouA7-yr8

The links are listed in the ‘show more’ section