GUILTY Australia - Lisa Harnum, 30, killed in 15-storey fall, Sydney, 30 July 2011 #3

[LadyBird1]

I can sort of get this and also sort of not.

My husband is a super-geek.

His computer is worth about $5k - and we alsways HAVE to have the latest gadgets *sigh*

We don't live in a secure apartment building - in fact our area is a real socioeconomic mix - a new development as well as weatherboard run down places. House prices range from $279k to $800k - and there is definately a criminal element in our area.

Do we install security cameras? No. We lock our door, pay contents insurance and have a little bit of faith in humanity.

To me, the whole installation of cameras means that there was something being stored there that a $50 a month insurance policy wouldn't replace.

Cash... substances?

And a deep distrust of the people in your life - after all, it is a secure building. Access to each floor is restricted with swipe cards and being buzzed in only allows elevator access to that specific floor.

Now a computer may be stolen if there was fear that the computer contained footage of another theft.... but I really cant see how cameras to protect a PC is necessarily warranted.

Or maybe I'm just too trusting?


On a side note...... I finally got around to being verified... so I don't need to dance around with my words if anything comes up that I can give input to. Yay! (thanks Marly for letting me know!)

Ha ha re your latest gadgetry. I know what you mean. Love your resigned comment *sigh* !
We too have plenty of security, but it is for the purpose of burglary. It is NOT for keeping an eye on each other. Therefore it is geared up quite differently.

Glad you got verified. I appreciate all your posts too.

 

[icu nurse]

Ha ha re your latest gadgetry. I know what you mean. Love your resigned comment *sigh* !
We too have plenty of security, but it is for the purpose of burglary. It is NOT for keeping an eye on each other. Therefore it is geared up quite differently.

Glad you got verified. I appreciate all your posts too.

Do you have cameras??

I just feel like it's taking things a little too far! But that's just me.
Never been robbed, Maybe things would be different if I had been.

I had a workmate who did - and so I'm aware second hand of the degree of trauma involved. She couch surfed for weeks before she felt okay enough to sleep at home again!

 

[icu nurse]

Yay for getting verified!

I get the sense SG is a control freak and always suspects he's being taken advantage of. I think you hit the nail on the head with having a deep distrust of people. Paranoid narcissist? It could be something as pathetic as checking to see the cleaner was working the he hours he paid for. I can imagine he'd love the power trip of confronting the cleaner about why he/she left 20 minutes early.

A very valid other perspective....BBM

I can certainly see this transpiring!

 

[marlywings]

Yay for getting verified!

Perhaps the camera's were just installed so he could watch Lisa? But she thought they were there for some other reason.

To protect anything illegal is possible. Not something you claim on insurance or report to the police.

I get the sense SG is a control freak and always suspects he's being taken advantage of. I think you hit the nail on the head with having a deep distrust of people. Paranoid narcissist? It could be something as pathetic as checking to see the cleaner was working the he hours he paid for. I can imagine he'd love the power trip of confronting the cleaner about why he/she left 20 minutes early.

I'm thinking he may have developed a certain amount of paranoia from drug use & perhaps had a twofold reason for installing the cams....one - to monitor Lisa's every movement....two - to protect his stash if he had it stored somewhere in the apartment....possibly the ceiling.

He claimed Lisa had a secret which she wouldn't share with him....was he the one with the "secret"....did Lisa become aware of his drug involvement & threatened to tell??

Considering the amount of lies he's told in the past, his "setting up a business to deliver ready-made meals to athletes & bodybuilders", somehow, I don't think, involved traditional cooking.

 

[icu nurse]

Perhaps the camera's were just installed so he could watch Lisa? But she thought they were there for some other reason.

I just had another rather sickening thought....

Nothing has come out (aside from his alleged 3/4/5 am activities)... but they could have even been there to further exert his control, by having footage he could blackmail her with? Recording intimate acts?



I guess it still feels like more than your average security measures when you live in a secure apartment with a concierge. I lived in The Peak (above Paddy's Markets in Sydney) before I relocated to Radelaide and there is no way, without a swipe card, a burglar was going to get away with anything. The concierge had to buzz visitors out. They were reluctant to let anyone in - even my sister, who had been there about a million times - was made to wait outside, not even in the foyer, when she was coming over and arrived early while I was still in the shower.

You couldnt access the carparking levels without a card, and then only the level your space was allocated on.

There are cameras in the foyers & lifts.

Installing camera's in an apartment is a bit of overkill...... and wasnt he renting anyway? The excuse was to keep an eye on contractors doing some work for him..... I highly, HIGHLY doubt that in such a building he would have been allowed to make any modifications - it's notoriously difficult, even as an owner - damn strata!!!!

 

[icu nurse]

Considering the amount of lies he's told in the past, his "setting up a business to deliver ready-made meals to athletes & bodybuilders", somehow, I don't think, involved traditional cooking.

Add some peptides to your protein shakes?

Considering his history, this would be a safer illegal market to enter. It doesnt seem as "frowned upon" in the justice system as "drugs".

 

[JudgeJudy]

Yes - I bet his legal team are scratching their heads about how to make this guy look good in any light. No one can believe SG and his representation. His life has been a lie, a scam, and a con. He's dangerous because he still possibly believes there is a way out of this - and that all he has to do is think of it (which would involve lies, a scam, a con, a threat, a payoff) :facepalm:
He has no respect for the law, let alone human life and the suffering he causes.

I bet he still thinks he will get off lightly.

.

Yep - He probably thinks he will, but I don't think so - not this time.:jail:

 

[marlywings]

I just had another rather sickening thought....

Nothing has come out (aside from his alleged 3/4/5 am activities)... but they could have even been there to further exert his control, by having footage he could blackmail her with? Recording intimate acts?



I guess it still feels like more than your average security measures when you live in a secure apartment with a concierge. I lived in The Peak (above Paddy's Markets in Sydney) before I relocated to Radelaide and there is no way, without a swipe card, a burglar was going to get away with anything. The concierge had to buzz visitors out. They were reluctant to let anyone in - even my sister, who had been there about a million times - was made to wait outside, not even in the foyer, when she was coming over and arrived early while I was still in the shower.

You couldnt access the carparking levels without a card, and then only the level your space was allocated on.

There are cameras in the foyers & lifts.

Installing camera's in an apartment is a bit of overkill...... and wasnt he renting anyway? The excuse was to keep an eye on contractors doing some work for him..... I highly, HIGHLY doubt that in such a building he would have been allowed to make any modifications - it's notoriously difficult, even as an owner - damn strata!!!!

I think he would have relished all the extra security in that hotel as opposed to having to secure a house elsewhere. All he had to do was set up CCTV cams in the unit....no need to be blacking out windows like many of them do.

 

[marlywings]

Add some peptides to your protein shakes?

Considering his history, this would be a safer illegal market to enter. It doesnt seem as "frowned upon" in the justice system as "drugs".

I think, in time, we may get to hear a whole lot more about drug involvement considering there was a connection between him, two methylamphetamine producers & the Chemright company.

 

[JudgeJudy]

I can sort of get this and also sort of not.


To me, the whole installation of cameras means that there was something being stored there that a $50 a month insurance policy wouldn't replace.

Cash... substances?

Now a computer may be stolen if there was fear that the computer contained footage of another theft.... but I really cant see how cameras to protect a PC is necessarily warranted.

Quote respectfully snipped by me :

No - I wasn't thinking that the theft of a PC would be on his 'important list' but rather anything else that someone might really want that could only be found either on his body or in his residence. As we now know, he has a history of drug dealing and cash handling in high amounts. With this knowledge, you would have to assume that he was entrusted with either drugs and/or cash for other nasty people. He would want to protect it. IMO. If the camera was installed, with the knowledge of LH also, very early on after moving in, it makes me wonder if the cameras were predominantly for his extraneous activities and then escalated to a personal pursuit of LH later on. :snooty:

 

[LadyBird1]

Do you have cameras??

I just feel like it's taking things a little too far! But that's just me.
Never been robbed, Maybe things would be different if I had been.

I had a workmate who did - and so I'm aware second hand of the degree of trauma involved. She couch surfed for weeks before she felt okay enough to sleep at home again!

Motion activated camera hidden at front farm gate and slightly different alarm systems in machinery shed. (Been robbed, so you gear up for that.)
Certainly no cameras in our personal space. That's invasive.
And what SG was doing was as off as could be IMO. Taking things too far is an understatement.
Either this was for Lisa's "benefit", or it's to do with contraband. Drugs. Illegal substances. Something worth big bikkies. And I hope he gets found out.
This apartment was very expensive.
Completely at odds with his family's home.
How did he pay for same and where did the money come from?

 

[icu nurse]

Considering he got stung for drugs in transit (and we often see 'police searched a car and found xxxxx) It could have been he was the "storage" agent for someone else. People could come by and pick up what they were meant to be out selling, and then it's just a quick dump of pills in the bushes, and not a police chase to be worried about.

Back in the days when my friend got involved with bad people, we'd often be heading into a club and see lots of baggies of pills in the gutters or bushes - and then notice the police cars later.

 

[Brightbird]

Considering he got stung for drugs in transit (and we often see 'police searched a car and found xxxxx) It could have been he was the "storage" agent for someone else. People could come by and pick up what they were meant to be out selling, and then it's just a quick dump of pills in the bushes, and not a police chase to be worried about.

Back in the days when my friend got involved with bad people, we'd often be heading into a club and see lots of baggies of pills in the gutters or bushes - and then notice the police cars later.

And those people selling drugs in clubs or on the streets are way down the hierarchy. SG could have worked his way up the ladder to where he wasn't driving around carrying bottles of pills anymore.

It is all a bit too shady isn't it? The drug dealing past, the connections to meth makers while on bail, the recent importation business/es, the lifestyle, no-one really knowing what did to support himself these last few years. I could totally see him involved in semi-legal stuff like peptides and all manner of illegal stuff too. The nosy part of me would really love to know how his 'connections' might help or hinder him in jail.

 

[they'll get you]

What else are we going to hear at the sentencing or is that it, just the sentencing.

 

[marlywings]

What else are we going to hear at the sentencing or is that it, just the sentencing.

Victim impact statements are usually read on the sentencing date.

Considering the case is still in sub-judice period right up until the day he's sentenced, I'm not sure we'll hear too much more until then.

Then perhaps some gates may open.

Throughout the trial, we've heard quite a lot about Lisa...her life in Canada & Aus, her work as a hairdresser etc but really, we've heard very little about SG's past except for those previous crimes & relation to drugs.

 

[SouthAussie]

Victim impact statements are usually read on the sentencing date.

Considering the case is still in sub-judice period right up until the day he's sentenced, I'm not sure we'll hear too much more until then.

Then perhaps some gates may open.

Throughout the trial, we've heard quite a lot about Lisa...her life in Canada & Aus, her work as a hairdresser etc but really, we've heard very little about SG's past except for those previous crimes & relation to drugs.

I wonder if Joan and/or her son will come back for the sentencing. That will be her chance (finally!) to tell people about her wonderful daughter, who was evidently well-liked by the friends she had (before Gittany curtailed that), and well-loved by her family .. a gorgeous, fun-loving, happy, cheeky girl, by all accounts.

Maybe Joan can appear by video-link or video recording if she can't make the long haul back again. I'm sure it must be costing her a fortune to travel back and forth, and stay so far from home. I hope she has been able to get some assistance from Victims of Crime.

 

[FigTree]

Respectfully snipped by me...

How did he pay for same and where did the money come from?

and how did he continue to keep paying the rent when he wasn't there and didn't have a job? (well, besides a masters in photocopying )

.

 

[icu nurse]

I wonder if Joan and/or her son will come back for the sentencing. That will be her chance (finally!) to tell people about her wonderful daughter, who was evidently well-liked by the friends she had (before Gittany curtailed that), and well-loved by her family .. a gorgeous, fun-loving, happy, cheeky girl, by all accounts.

Maybe Joan can appear by video-link or video recording if she can't make the long haul back again. I'm sure it must be costing her a fortune to travel back and forth, and stay so far from home. I hope she has been able to get some assistance from Victims of Crime.

From my understanding you can submit a written statement and nominate a person to read it.

They do have a trustworthy advocate for Lisa in Michelle Richmond, and I can see them using her rather than being here.

The trial was exceptionally painful for Joan - understandably so. She didn't remain in the room for the bulk of the verdict.

Looking at the killers who are sentenced to life without parole - I'm just not sure that SG will get that punishment..... Its not my opinion that he deserves less, just the track record of the justice system.

And I don't imagine how, as a family member, you could want anything less than the maximum. And I can't imagine the hurt and betrayal any lesser sentence would deliver when someone has been murdered.


Back in 1995, two of my family members were killed in a car accident, and one was left with a lifetime severe disability. The driver at fault was a firefighter, returning home from battling unseasonably severe and early fires. No BAC sample was taken at the scene. He admitted to one beer, and being fatigued, possibly having a 'microsleep' behind the wheel.

He was found guilty of negligent driving occasioning death x2 and grevious bodily harm. He didn't do a day behind bars. The sentence was small, and suspended completely.

In our grief, "Guilty" was a salve. A soothing ointment. Something to put the anger away.

The sentence tore things open completely for me personally - the wound was worse. How can he be guilty but free? How can he go back to normal life when lives were irrecoverably changed?
My mother is an amazing woman, and she took it the best - challenging my rage and asking me what sentence would have been enough? I couldn't answer that. Life - but no, not even murders get life..... 5 years? 10 years? What sentence would make me feel better? There wasn't a number. Loss is too hard to quantify.

Anger mellowed over time. The driver's son died in a fatal car accident that wasn't his fault a few years later. The link was published in the reporting of the accident - headlines like "fatal crash driver loses son in car accident."
I thought I'd feel vindicated. Instead I just felt so terrible desolate and sad.

There was a time when I wished that he would know what it was like. That he would know what we were going through. And then he did - and that punishment was more than I would have wanted.... considering the circumstances, considering - above all, it was an accident..... I hated myself for having ever had that thought.

I've digressed, and I know that intentional taking of a life is vastly different to a crash. I just was trying to say, I know first hand how devastating t a sentence coming out can be - especially when you feel it's less than the person deserves.

I'm hopeful for harsh punishment for SG, especially because he has not been a solid contributing member of society - he has had numerous chances and received numerous lenient sentences in the past... all of which he has disregarded.


But then I compare him to other sentencing, and as despicable and (more words I wont say lest Marly have to send me to the naughty corner..... ) I don't think the outcome will be as great as I hope.


I just think, if it was me, I wouldn't be able to handle being there. Because here - where it's murder - the answer to my mother's question is easier. He chose to take a life. The judge should take away his freedom for life.

 

[JudgeJudy]

Wow ICU Nurse - That is a gut wrenching and thought provoking post. It's hard to know how to respond. My friend (and ex-colleague) hit a young boy on his way to school at an intersection where she had a green light and the pedestrian was red. It was a wet, rainy morning and the young boy ran out across the road in front of her car. She was absolutely devastated. Thankfully, the boy was OK, but the police were involved etc and it gutted her. She was an emotional mess for a long time. She is a good person. She'll never forget it. I can only imagine that the person involved in your family member's death would most likely also torture themselves over causing the death and devastation that follows. Particularly when (I'm assuming) that his occupation as a Firefighter and the circumstances placed him in a different light compared to say a hoon doing spin outs somewhere and causing this type of tragedy. It's very hard to judge if you haven't experienced either side of the situation, so I am (thankfully) commenting from a safe position.

IMO : Simon Gittany's situation wasn't accidental. In fact, the Judgment indicated premeditation. He wasn't and isn't a good person IMO. He is in a very different league to the person who caused the death of your family members (IMO). He doesn't seem to fit the 'normal' mindset of people as we know it going by his past behaviour.

I wonder if the Firefighter is struggling through life with what he did ? People handle it in different ways. It may have changed his whole life. I would hate to have that kind of weight on my shoulders. Is that enough to satisfy retribution ? I don't know.

However, in SG's case, I can't see how his sentence can be less than the maximum for murder in this country. He doesn't 'qualify' for anything less. IMO.

Thank you for sharing your experience - I hope SG ticks all the boxes for loss of freedom. IMO : Some people deserve that, and some don't.

 

[Fuskier]

I enjoy your posts icu nurse. You gently express thoughts which some might find difficult to say, like a salve, preparing us for the next stage to think about the penalty(s) which may be applied to the perpetrator for this violent death, an intentional death which has captured many around the world and rendered some speechless. Your empathy for the family's position regarding sentencing is illuminating and helps us to grasp some of the difficulties they may encounter with the administration of Justice versus their personal sense of Justice. Thank you.