Australia- Nine people stabbed including 9 month baby @ the Westfield Shopping Centre in Bondi Junction, suspect fatally shot, Sydney, 13 April 2024

She was tapering him down slowly and warning and monitoring him the whole time, as per his wishes, so that he could find a level where he was able to actually function.

Is it her fault he chose to do illegal and inappropriate drugs against her advice?
Is it her fault that schizophrenia drugs suck and no one bothers to improve them?
Licence revoked? For what? For agreeing to see how the patient goes without their medication for 6 months, and then the patient moves interstate and becomes uncontactable, and never attends for follow-up? If the patient is not involuntarily detained, is not on a Community Treatment Order, has no known history of violence (at that point) against self or others, there is nothing we can do. If we find out which doctor the patient is attending in their new state (through the parents or others), we can contact that clinic and say "this patient is now attending your service, could you please check how he is going and restart his medication if necessary" but the vast majority of the time we have no idea where they are.

Most of our patients with schizophrenia take themselves off their medication anyway, with or without our approval or knowledge, because that is just the nature of their illness. If they are not under legal compulsion to take their meds, what can we do - attend all of their homes and hold them down and shove their medication in their mouth or give them an injection against their will? That is assault for which we can be prosecuted.

Why is this on the GP and not the parents?

Take it as my opinion only as I am not verified here as a medical practitioner.

ok easy people ...
I obviously didn't know the rest of the details from the doc and was responding to a post without those details
a lot of the articles are paywalled for me
I also didn't know he did any illegal drugs? was that in MSM too?
I am quite familiar with the nature of the disease
 
The most important part of treatment for schizophrenia is medication. It is nearly impossible to manage symptoms without antipsychotic drugs. There is currently no cure for schizophrenia, so it's evident that treatment should be ongoing. While there may be periods of remission where symptoms improve, treatment is typically necessary for life as the condition rarely, if ever, goes into complete remission.

precisely
 
She didn't stop his medication she changed and reduced his medication to reduce the crippling side effects.

Are people with schizophrenia supposed to be forced to live like zombies their whole life just in case they have a violent psychotic episode one day?

There's also no evidence reducing his medication is what caused this episode. The illicit stimulants and hallucinogens are more likely to have done that.

what illegal drugs did he take?
 
ok easy people ...
I obviously didn't know the rest of the details from the doc and was responding to a post without those details
a lot of the articles are paywalled for me
I also didn't know he did any illegal drugs? was that in MSM too?
I am quite familiar with the nature of the disease
BBM : Not that I have seen.

I think people are just assuming he did IMO
 
BBM : Not that I have seen.

I think people are just assuming he did IMO

"His family said he had suffered mental health issues since he was a teenager and

police believe in recent years he had been taking drugs including meth and psychedelics."


"However, the risk explodes when serious mental illness is associated with drug use, especially amphetamines.

The risk of a serious act of violence, be it a lone killing or attack on a public figure, then doubles.

Unfortunately, this may well have been the case with Cauchi, where past use of amphetamines and psychedelic drugs have been reported."




"A leading neuropsychiatrist says there was a potential

'missed opportunity'

by Queensland authorities to link Joel Cauchi with crucial treatment,
in light of his mental health history and his interactions with Queensland Police.

Dr Harry McConnell,
a neuropsychiatrist and former adviser to the Queensland government,
says while he doesn't have access to Cauchi's clinical records,
it appears that failures when it came to communicating Cauchi's situation may have seen him

'lost in the system'.

'It seems like there was a difficulty in monitoring,
there was difficulty in communication between the public and private systems,
between the police and the public system,
and with the family and so,
clearly, he fell through the cracks',
he told 7.30."


"Cauchi was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2000.

Police sources have told Sydney newspapers that Cauchi used drugs,

including methamphetamine and psychedelics."



And so on,
And so forth.
 
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"His family said he had suffered mental health issues since he was a teenager and

police believe in recent years he had been taking drugs including meth and psychedelics."


"However, the risk explodes when serious mental illness is associated with drug use, especially amphetamines.

The risk of a serious act of violence, be it a lone killing or attack on a public figure, then doubles.
Unfortunately, this may well have been the case with Cauchi, where past use of amphetamines and psychedelic drugs have been reported."




" 'It seems like there was a difficulty in monitoring, there was difficulty in communication between the public and private systems, between the police and the public system, and with the family and so, clearly, he fell through the cracks',
he told 7.30."

It's still an assumption that he was currently taking illicit substance/s IMO

Toxicology findings will tell the truth
 
We decided as a society some decades ago that people shouldn't be forced long term to live in institutions they don't want to be in, or to take medication they don't want to take.
Can you recall a referendum on that decision? It seems it came from above, likely for financial reasons.
 
But how do you think these people should be managed? Drugged and kept locked up somewhere? It's a fine line.
Mental health patients deserve proper treatment. Full stop. Otherwise, we all become victims of circumstances, like the tragic events at Bondi shopping centre. Imagine simply grabbing groceries and ending up with a knife in your chest. So, what takes precedence: protecting the lives of innocent people or prioritising the illusory rights of mental health patients who refuse treatment?
 
‘I feel sick in my stomach’: Salon worker nervous to return to scene of Bondi massacre
A man who hid terrified customers at the back of his hair salon during the Bondi massacre says he feels “sick in his stomach” about returning to work a week later.

Joel Cauchi, 40, killed six people and stabbed 12 more during a murderous rampage at the Westfield shopping centre on Saturday afternoon.
“I’m very nervous and actually I feel a bit sick in the stomach and I’m still a bit terrified, to be honest,” he told Today.
“I’m not really trusting going back in there, but I kind of have to do it, I guess.”
“I actually don’t want to go back in, I wish I didn’t have to go back in.”
 
Mental health patients deserve proper treatment. Full stop. Otherwise, we all become victims of circumstances, like the tragic events at Bondi shopping centre. Imagine simply grabbing groceries and ending up with a knife in your chest. So, what takes precedence: protecting the lives of innocent people or prioritising the illusory rights of mental health patients who refuse treatment?
As I said, it's a fine line. Mental health people have rights to refuse meds. Same as others have the right to go shopping.
 
Can you recall a referendum on that decision? It seems it came from above, likely for financial reasons.
In Qld it came about in the early 1990's I think. Too many horror stories of inhumane institutional care. I worked at the time with assisted living. Too many people in need left to fend for themselves with only basic care. Some could cope, but some mental health patients left in psych hospitals to become institutionalised zombies in a medical model. No other option.
 
In Qld it came about in the early 1990's I think. Too many horror stories of inhumane institutional care. I worked at the time with assisted living. Too many people in need left to fend for themselves with only basic care. Some could cope, but some mental health patients left in psych hospitals to become institutionalised zombies in a medical model. No other option.
Yep.

There is no easy answer.

There are many schizophrenic people who lead a full & meaningful life & are compliant with treatment.

How common is schizophrenia?​

Schizophrenia affects roughly 20 million people worldwide (5). In Australia, schizophrenia affects around 2.4 per 1000 people. It is slightly more common in men compared to women (6).
 
She was tapering him down slowly and warning and monitoring him the whole time, as per his wishes, so that he could find a level where he was able to actually function.

Is it her fault he chose to do illegal and inappropriate drugs against her advice?
Is it her fault that schizophrenia drugs suck and no one bothers to improve them?
At least he was in contact with a doctor, and was reducing his medication with her knowledge and advice, and actually seeing the doctor every now and then. (Until he wasn't.)

This is rare for people with schizophrenia. Mostly they just refuse to take their medication, and stop coming to see the doctor. The doctor can keep writing a prescription every X months if they want to, but the patient doesn't have to get it filled if they don't want to, and if they do, they don't have to take it if they don't want to.

Sometimes the doctor may see a family member for their own medical issues. "How's X? Is he taking his medication?" "I don't know. He refuses to talk to me about it. I tried to visit him last week, but he would not let me in the house."

Does he have a case worker or mental health coordinator at the public mental health service? I don't know. Nobody ever contacts the GP about him. Even if he ends up in hospital and then gets discharged in the middle of the night, nobody ever notifies the GP.

The doctor phones the public mental health service. "Does X have a case manager, or someone who is looking after him? Is there someone I can talk to about him?" "We closed his case a few months ago. We could not contact him, and when we did, he refused our help, so we discharged him from our service." There are thousands of other mentally ill people who need their services, after all. They cannot keep everybody on their books indefinitely, especially if the client does not want their involvement.

X is a public patient, so he has never seen a psychiatrist. I can't speak for Queensland or other states (I'm in VIC) but patients in the public system virtually never see a psychiatrist. It just doesn't happen. They deal with "mental health clinicians", nurses, social workers, or if they are really lucky and they are an inpatient in hospital, maybe a psychiatric registrar. One patient with schizophrenia has seen a private psychiatrist exactly once in their life. The family saved up money for ages to pay for one visit with a psychiatrist, in order to get an official diagnosis. In order to get a disability pension, the person must have a diagnosis of schizophrenia made by a psychiatrist. That's it. All other care and management is handballed to the GP.

If X has a mental health crisis and does happen to see the GP in that condition, the GP will phone the CATT (crisis assessment and treatment team) and spend an hour on the phone with them while an acutely psychotic and suicidal patient is in their consulting room or terrifying other patients and staff in the clinic, begging them to at least send someone out to talk to the patient (and maybe get them into hospital), while the CATT team is listing all the reasons why they can't/won't and the patient doesn't actually need their services. Or they will say to call the police or ambulance. The ambulance will not attend without the police, and the family beg you not to involve the police as this will agitate the patient further and they fear he will end up shot or otherwise harmed. Eventually he leaves of his own accord and goes home. You hope he will be OK. The CATT team may or may not phone him later at home. He may or may not answer or get involved.

I could go on and on. I could give so many examples. Because of privacy, I cannot.

In the meantime, X is experimenting with other "medications" which make him feel so much better than the ones the doctor prescribes.

And then if/when he does become completely unbalanced and harms himself or someone else, it's the GP's fault.

Once again, take this as my own opinion only - the random ramblings or fever dreams of a completely unverified individual.

I am going to take a break from this thread. It has been another one of those weeks in which you long for just one person to come in with a sore throat, or a sore finger, because EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of your patients is a complicated mental health patient and there is no room in the schedule any more for those other simple things. And you are not a trained psychiatrist or psychologist, or social worker, and can only do so much. And every time the government says "we will improve mental health services or support" it means "we will require the GP's to do more, without any extra funding, support or services."

And then, when the patient "snaps" and does something horrible, it is our fault.

All the people who are talking about how necessary medication is, and how the condition cannot be managed without medication, and how it is the doctor's fault that the patient was unmedicated, I hereby make you a job offer. You are hired. I will give you a list of all the patients with mental health conditions that need medication in order to function. Your job is to go to their home (or if they are not at that address, you have to track them down and locate them), and give them their medication, and make sure they take it, and do not leave them until they have taken it. If they are agitated or aggressive, that is your problem. You have to deal with it, or call the police, or CATT team, just like we have to. Then, when everyone is medicated and society is safe again, you can come here and talk about medication and how essential it is for mental illness.

Sorry. Unverified rambling opinion source signing off now. I'm off to do something relaxing and enjoyable my day off, like clean the toilet. Or pet the cat.
 
At least he was in contact with a doctor, and was reducing his medication with her knowledge and advice, and actually seeing the doctor every now and then. (Until he wasn't.)

This is rare for people with schizophrenia. Mostly they just refuse to take their medication, and stop coming to see the doctor. The doctor can keep writing a prescription every X months if they want to, but the patient doesn't have to get it filled if they don't want to, and if they do, they don't have to take it if they don't want to.

Sometimes the doctor may see a family member for their own medical issues. "How's X? Is he taking his medication?" "I don't know. He refuses to talk to me about it. I tried to visit him last week, but he would not let me in the house."

Does he have a case worker or mental health coordinator at the public mental health service? I don't know. Nobody ever contacts the GP about him. Even if he ends up in hospital and then gets discharged in the middle of the night, nobody ever notifies the GP.

The doctor phones the public mental health service. "Does X have a case manager, or someone who is looking after him? Is there someone I can talk to about him?" "We closed his case a few months ago. We could not contact him, and when we did, he refused our help, so we discharged him from our service." There are thousands of other mentally ill people who need their services, after all. They cannot keep everybody on their books indefinitely, especially if the client does not want their involvement.

X is a public patient, so he has never seen a psychiatrist. I can't speak for Queensland or other states (I'm in VIC) but patients in the public system virtually never see a psychiatrist. It just doesn't happen. They deal with "mental health clinicians", nurses, social workers, or if they are really lucky and they are an inpatient in hospital, maybe a psychiatric registrar. One patient with schizophrenia has seen a private psychiatrist exactly once in their life. The family saved up money for ages to pay for one visit with a psychiatrist, in order to get an official diagnosis. In order to get a disability pension, the person must have a diagnosis of schizophrenia made by a psychiatrist. That's it. All other care and management is handballed to the GP.

If X has a mental health crisis and does happen to see the GP in that condition, the GP will phone the CATT (crisis assessment and treatment team) and spend an hour on the phone with them while an acutely psychotic and suicidal patient is in their consulting room or terrifying other patients and staff in the clinic, begging them to at least send someone out to talk to the patient (and maybe get them into hospital), while the CATT team is listing all the reasons why they can't/won't and the patient doesn't actually need their services. Or they will say to call the police or ambulance. The ambulance will not attend without the police, and the family beg you not to involve the police as this will agitate the patient further and they fear he will end up shot or otherwise harmed. Eventually he leaves of his own accord and goes home. You hope he will be OK. The CATT team may or may not phone him later at home. He may or may not answer or get involved.

I could go on and on. I could give so many examples. Because of privacy, I cannot.

In the meantime, X is experimenting with other "medications" which make him feel so much better than the ones the doctor prescribes.

And then if/when he does become completely unbalanced and harms himself or someone else, it's the GP's fault.

Once again, take this as my own opinion only - the random ramblings or fever dreams of a completely unverified individual.

I am going to take a break from this thread. It has been another one of those weeks in which you long for just one person to come in with a sore throat, or a sore finger, because EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of your patients is a complicated mental health patient and there is no room in the schedule any more for those other simple things. And you are not a trained psychiatrist or psychologist, or social worker, and can only do so much. And every time the government says "we will improve mental health services or support" it means "we will require the GP's to do more, without any extra funding, support or services."

And then, when the patient "snaps" and does something horrible, it is our fault.

All the people who are talking about how necessary medication is, and how the condition cannot be managed without medication, and how it is the doctor's fault that the patient was unmedicated, I hereby make you a job offer. You are hired. I will give you a list of all the patients with mental health conditions that need medication in order to function. Your job is to go to their home (or if they are not at that address, you have to track them down and locate them), and give them their medication, and make sure they take it, and do not leave them until they have taken it. If they are agitated or aggressive, that is your problem. You have to deal with it, or call the police, or CATT team, just like we have to. Then, when everyone is medicated and society is safe again, you can come here and talk about medication and how essential it is for mental illness.

Sorry. Unverified rambling opinion source signing off now. I'm off to do something relaxing and enjoyable my day off, like clean the toilet. Or pet the cat.
Respect MadDoc, you've nailed it.

I agree with all the above.

I have a great respect for GP's who have to deal with all they do, an ever increasing workload , just like the whole health system which has been teetering on an edge well before Covid.

Enjoy your day off!
 
I would think that a professional psychiatrist might have observed these worrying traits in a patient suffering from schizophrenia.
:rolleyes:
And act accordingly.

Really,
Is it too much to ask for adequate treatment for MH patients? :oops:

JMO
Excellent question Dotta, and no, I don't think it's too much to ask for adequate treatment for MH patients at all.

IMO adequate treatment for MH patients should be available, just as adequate treatment is available for patients suffering from physiological illnesses, viral diseases, and other diseases including neurological illness (as opposed to "mental" illness where behaviour is affected.) (I am not a medical person - I'm sure other Websleuthers can explain distinctions much better than I.)

I fail to see why sufferers of mental health conditions are not provided with a similar level of treatment as sufferers of other conditions - what possible justification can there be for this?

IMO In our society, mental illness is stigmatised appallingly, and I believe it is common for people to hide mental health situations/conditions when they wouldn't if they were suffering from a non-MH condition. I have observed this throughout my working life.

As a sufferer of major depression, at one stage I attended the Emergency department of my local (regional) hospital, as I was on the brink of suicide and in a state of crisis. (Caveat here - I do recognise that being a triage nurse would be very challenging - nevertheless...) I endured hours of sitting in a full waiting room, sobbing my heart out - eventually I was "seen" by the duty doctor, and then sent home WHERE I LIVED ALONE, DRIVING A CAR, WHEN I WAS CLEARLY NOT IN A FIT STATE TO DRIVE. In effect, I was stigmatised in front of a room full of people, all who would have seen that it was not a good idea to admit to suffering from a mental illness to the triage nurse at this location.

The only thing that kept me going when I got home that night was experiencing the love of my two cats who were clearly tuned in to my emotions and doing their best to comfort me. I couldn't bring myself to abandon them to an uncertain future.
The whole experience brought home to me how difficult it can be to get appropriate help - particularly if you don't have a support person with you IMO.

I noticed very insightful comments from a former member of Gauci's "close circle of friends" during high school in Toowoomba.
(Yes I have been critical of DM at times - this is a direct quote however). Good job DM! -

'If there's a lesson, it's that mental illness is a *advertiser censored* and we shouldn't muck around with it...

We shouldn't be too tough to get help ourselves when we need to, and when people reach out to us for connection we should see it for what it is and not ignore them...

Joel's surely not the only one struggling...'


(He also shared his sympathy for the loved ones of the six shoppers who were killed and the injured.)

 
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Excellent question Dotta, and no, I don't think it's too much to ask for adequate treatment for MH patients at all.

IMO adequate treatment for MH patients should be available, just as adequate treatment is available for patients suffering from physiological illnesses, viral diseases, and other diseases including neurological illness (as opposed to "mental" illness where behaviour is affected.) (I am not a medical person - I'm sure other Websleuthers can explain distinctions much better than I.)

I fail to see why sufferers of mental health conditions are not provided with a similar level of treatment as sufferers of other conditions - what possible justification can there be for this?


IMO In our society, mental illness is stigmatised appallingly, and I believe it is common for people to hide mental health situations/conditions when they wouldn't if they were suffering from a non-MH condition. I have observed this throughout my working life.

As a sufferer of major depression, at one stage I attended the Emergency department of my local (regional) hospital, as I was on the brink of suicide and in a state of crisis. (Caveat here - I do recognise that being a triage nurse would be very challenging - nevertheless...) I endured hours of sitting in a full waiting room, sobbing my heart out - eventually I was "seen" by the duty doctor, and then sent home WHERE I LIVED ALONE, DRIVING A CAR, WHEN I WAS CLEARLY NOT IN A FIT STATE TO DRIVE. In effect, I was stigmatised in front of a room full of people, all who would have seen that it was not a good idea to admit to suffering from a mental illness to the triage nurse at this location.

The only thing that kept me going when I got home that night was experiencing the love of my two cats who were clearly tuned in to my emotions and doing their best to comfort me. I couldn't bring myself to abandon them to an uncertain future.
The whole experience brought home to me how difficult it can be to get appropriate help - particularly if you don't have a support person with you IMO.

I noticed very insightful comments from a former member of Gauci's "close circle of friends" during high school in Toowoomba.
(Yes I have been critical of DM at times - this is a direct quote however). Good job DM! -

'If there's a lesson, it's that mental illness is a *advertiser censored* and we shouldn't muck around with it...

We shouldn't be too tough to get help ourselves when we need to, and when people reach out to us for connection we should see it for what it is and not ignore them...

Joel's surely not the only one struggling...'


(He also shared his sympathy for the loved ones of the six shoppers who were killed and the injured.)

Very true .

A person in a mental health crisis should be treated as any other medical emergency IMO
 
I've had experiences where I was in the depths of depression and finally reached out.
It took a lot for me to do that.

I had chosen how I was going to end it, and told them.
One GP when I asked to speak to someone said that they don't have anything like that and that I was stronger than I thought I was.
Another said but you didn't do it, you're still here.

There was another one where everything I was brave enough to reveal happened to her too, and I was there just wasting her time. The session, which was a free mental health one didn't last. I reached for my handbag, said thank you and left. In my mind I was saying "thanks for nothing, and thanks for the lack of empathy"

I realised, in my case I was on my own. So I became my own therapist, but I know it's not that easy.
Many people are suffering and can't get the help they need.

In this case, I don't think it's a good idea to try to find a nice and tidy answer and someone to put the blame on.

Like the woman who was visiting JCs parents said to the media outside.
Have a bit of empathy.
 
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