AZ - Kristin Grell, 2, burned alive, Mesa, 2 Dec 1999

southcitymom said:
I think race is important to look at insofar as asking myself why are so many non-whites more likely to find themselves impoverished in this very wealthy country.
When your looking at poverty, sure-it can be grouped by race, but there are many white people living in poverty in this country, too. How many? I don't know, but it's possible that it could be comparable to non-whites, but I could be wrong. In many areas, there are pockets of poverty where the vast majority of people are white, same as with hispanics and Blacks. The only real thing I can come up with is responsible parenting. I know it sounds so cliche, but case in point. I know of a single mother, she had 5 boys, she's a Black woman, and let me tell you, money was more than just tight raising her kids. She scrimped & scraped, depended on charities to clothe her kids, food boxes to feed them. She worked everyday in her life, but at low paying jobs because she didn't have the education or means to get anything better. She lived in a terrible, crime-ridden, poverty struck neighborhood filled with gangs and criminals. Everything for her children growing up to have lives of poverty and be gang members was there--every element for them to continue the lifestyle that pervaded their mothers life, grandmothers life, etc. But she chose to spend every available minute with her kids, teaching them, taking them to the library, imposing strict restrictions on them regarding who they could associate with and demanded they made all A's and B's. She helped them with their homework and basically did everything in her power to steer these young boys away from what appeared to be their destiny. It was her vs. everything else in their world. Guess what? The last boy is on schedule to graduate from college this coming May. They ALL received full rides, 4 year scholarships. So, in this case, responsible & exhaustive parenting broke the cycle of what would have been an impoverished life for these guys. Two of them have wonderful wives, have purchased their first homes & one is expecting his first child. If we had more mothers AND fathers like her, I really think that this country would be so much better off in a generation or two.

ETA: It was a HUGE struggle for her, and there times that the boys hated their mother & deemed her unfair due to the restrictions and expectations she put upon them. Other kids who were "popular" in the gang and neighborhood circles made fun of them and called them "mama's boys' but she stuck to it, instilled confidence and pride in her kids and it paid off. The ones who made fun of them are still there, high school dropouts with no jobs, 5 kids of their own and no plans for the future.
 
julianne said:
When your looking at poverty, sure-it can be grouped by race, but there are many white people living in poverty in this country, too. How many? I don't know, but it's possible that it could be comparable to non-whites, but I could be wrong. In many areas, there are pockets of poverty where the vast majority of people are white, same as with hispanics and Blacks. The only real thing I can come up with is responsible parenting. I know it sounds so cliche, but case in point. I know of a single mother, she had 5 boys, she's a Black woman, and let me tell you, money was more than just tight raising her kids. She scrimped & scraped, depended on charities to clothe her kids, food boxes to feed them. She worked everyday in her life, but at low paying jobs because she didn't have the education or means to get anything better. She lived in a terrible, crime-ridden, poverty struck neighborhood filled with gangs and criminals. Everything for her children growing up to have lives of poverty and be gang members was there--every element for them to continue the lifestyle that pervaded their mothers life, grandmothers life, etc. But she chose to spend every available minute with her kids, teaching them, taking them to the library, imposing strict restrictions on them regarding who they could associate with and demanded they made all A's and B's. She helped them with their homework and basically did everything in her power to steer these young boys away from what appeared to be their destiny. It was her vs. everything else in their world. Guess what? The last boy is on schedule to graduate from college this coming May. They ALL received full rides, 4 year scholarships. So, in this case, responsible & exhaustive parenting broke the cycle of what would have been an impoverished life for these guys. Two of them have wonderful wives, have purchased their first homes & one is expecting his first child. If we had more mothers AND fathers like her, I really think that this country would be so much better off in a generation or two.

ETA: It was a HUGE struggle for her, and there times that the boys hated their mother & deemed her unfair due to the restrictions and expectations she put upon them. Other kids who were "popular" in the gang and neighborhood circles made fun of them and called them "mama's boys' but she stuck to it, instilled confidence and pride in her kids and it paid off. The ones who made fun of them are still there, high school dropouts with no jobs, 5 kids of their own and no plans for the future.
Very similar story here Julianne. My Dad was one of 8 kids raised without a father by my widowed Grandmother and Great Grandmother in innercity housing projects. She worked 2 jobs while my Great Grandma helped take care of them (and she had no hesitation to use her baseball bat when they were all teenagers). 6 boys and 2 girls. Every one of them has at least a 4 year degree in Education, Engineering, Law, Physicians, one of my Uncles has 3 PhD's. It really is about strong parenting more than the money. So I don't understand why more women aren't doing it, especially in this day of social services, grants for college, job training programs and free daycare programs, section 8 housing, etc.. My Grandmother had none of those resources in the mid 1940's-1950's. 80% of her Grandkids, me included, also competed a university education. She was very proud of how her kids turned out, and they were always were grateful to her and their Grandmother.
 
Since AZ borders Mexico, much of the poverty is affecting the hispanics. Many families come here with very little, so they are more prone to put themselves in these situations.

By the way, they have confirmed this punk is in Mexico. He crossed the border before the crime was reported, so who knows whether he will be seen again.

There is alot of opportunity in America, and really is not much reason for poverty. Most of it is derived from people having children they cannot afford.

I have my thoughts on Section 8 housing. Yes it helps low income families out, but it also decreases property values, raises property taxes, and crime just tends to follow much of these Section 8 tenants. I speak from experience. A condo complex I moved in about 8 years ago, about 25 units turned Section 8 and that is when the downward spiral of the whole neighborhood started. Many Section 8 tenants have several kids, no father figure, and problems just tend to plague this women.
 
Nocgirl said:
Since AZ borders Mexico, much of the poverty is affecting the hispanics. Many families come here with very little, so they are more prone to put themselves in these situations.

By the way, they have confirmed this punk is in Mexico. He crossed the border before the crime was reported, so who knows whether he will be seen again.

There is alot of opportunity in America, and really is not much reason for poverty. Most of it is derived from people having children they cannot afford.

I have my thoughts on Section 8 housing. Yes it helps low income families out, but it also decreases property values, raises property taxes, and crime just tends to follow much of these Section 8 tenants. I speak from experience. A condo complex I moved in about 8 years ago, about 25 units turned Section 8 and that is when the downward spiral of the whole neighborhood started. Many Section 8 tenants have several kids, no father figure, and problems just tend to plague this women.
Yes it's that, but I think they're having children they should have never gotten pregnant with in the first place! If she can't provide and take care of herself, why bring a chld into her messed up life.
 
IdahoMom said:
I've seen plenty of news articles with pictures of white men killing kids.


Now that is the truth IdahoMom and white so-called mothers too!
 
Countries that do not have the death penalty, like Canada, also do not send criminals back to countries to be put to death.

We are a civilized country, that does not have the death penalty, so why would we send a US citizen back to the US from Canada to "be held accountable" for his/her crime only to be put to death.
 
CyberLaw said:
Countries that do not have the death penalty, like Canada, also do not send criminals back to countries to be put to death.

We are a civilized country, that does not have the death penalty, so why would we send a US citizen back to the US from Canada to "be held accountable" for his/her crime only to be put to death.
They should because:
1. The criminal is a US Citizen, Not Canadian
2. Our people chose to have the DP by a majority.

Countries that do no send criminals back, interfere with our justice system.
JMO.
 
CyberLaw said:
Countries that do not have the death penalty, like Canada, also do not send criminals back to countries to be put to death.

We are a civilized country, that does not have the death penalty, so why would we send a US citizen back to the US from Canada to "be held accountable" for his/her crime only to be put to death.
I reacall the outrage over Charles Ng. iIunderstand Canada is not the US and has certain belifs and is very liberal about the death penalty but how could the Canadian government look ant Ng and the horrific things he did and feel sorry for him and refuse to extradite him b/c he would be executed?
 
2sisters said:
I reacall the outrage over Charles Ng. iIunderstand Canada is not the US and has certain belifs and is very liberal about the death penalty but how could the Canadian government look ant Ng and the horrific things he did and feel sorry for him and refuse to extradite him b/c he would be executed?
Ewwww, that Charles Ng guy, I think tops my list when it comes to pure evil. Wasn't he the one who videotaped his torture and killing sessions? I seem to remember one victim in particular, a young mom, begging and pleading for her son because they had him too. :mad: They were both killed. If there was ever a perfect candidate for the death penalty, he would certainly be it. I would flip the switch on him in a second, without one iota of remorse. Sick *advertiser censored*!
 
Canada did not in any way shape or form "feel sorry" for NG, not a chance. But a lot of civilized countries do not have the death penalty. NG "played" the system very, well.

Countries that do not have the death penalty, will not "take part, assist" and be responsible for a person being put to death in the country that their crime took place in. That is "sound" law for non DP countries.

EU does not have the death penalty, a lot of other civilized countries, and a lot of "uncivilized countries" like Liberia do not.

Canada outlawed the DP in 1976, Mexico in 2005. Germany in 1949. Switzerland in 1942. Cambodia - 1989.
 
CyberLaw said:
Canada did not in any way shape or form "feel sorry" for NG, not a chance. But a lot of civilized countries do not have the death penalty. NG "played" the system very, well.

Countries that do not have the death penalty, will not "take part, assist" and be responsible for a person being put to death in the country that their crime took place in. That is "sound" law for non DP countries.

EU does not have the death penalty, a lot of other civilized countries, and a lot of "uncivilized countries" like Liberia do not.

Canada outlawed the DP in 1976, Mexico in 2005. Germany in 1949. Switzerland in 1942. Cambodia - 1989.
Would that we could follow in their wise footsteps one day...but America is still a baby nation...be patient with us and we will catch up eventually!
 
julianne said:
Ewwww, that Charles Ng guy, I think tops my list when it comes to pure evil. Wasn't he the one who videotaped his torture and killing sessions? I seem to remember one victim in particular, a young mom, begging and pleading for her son because they had him too. :mad: They were both killed. If there was ever a perfect candidate for the death penalty, he would certainly be it. I would flip the switch on him in a second, without one iota of remorse. Sick *advertiser censored*!
Yes he was, he tourtured and killed people on tape. He is supected in the murder of a misisng CA family as well, they had a small baby. We did get him back from Canada though.
 
Charles NG is total scum of the earth. I remember that whole case. I recently just read about it on crimelibrary. That man has also taken the US for millions in stringing out his trial for ages, and has purpously delayed trials, caused issues deliberately to run up the bill. I wish someone would just take him out in prison. Do a Dahmer on him.
 
Nocgirl said:
Charles NG is total scum of the earth. I remember that whole case. I recently just read about it on crimelibrary. That man has also taken the US for millions in stringing out his trial for ages, and has purpously delayed trials, caused issues deliberately to run up the bill. I wish someone would just take him out in prison. Do a Dahmer on him.
That would be nice. He's a total waste of oxygen. :sick: The SOB thoroughly enjoyed torturing his victims, and he is not the least bit remorseful. His sorry excuse for a life needs to end already.:loser:
 
julianne said:
That would be nice. He's a total waste of oxygen. :sick: The SOB thoroughly enjoyed torturing his victims, and he is not the least bit remorseful. His sorry excuse for a life needs to end already.:loser:
That's why it was so infuriating to me that Canada wouldn't send him back. to me it was a slap in the vicitms and their families faces.
 
People are still working hard trying to get the evil person off.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2009/03/03/20090303mr-grell0304.html

(More at link)
A father convicted of dousing his own 2-year-old daughter with gasoline and lighting her on fire a decade ago in east Mesa will get a second chance later this month to avoid the death penalty.
Teresa Sanders has a hearing scheduled on March 17 to hear motions on jury selection and other issues on the resentencing of Shawn Grell.
In court filings, prosecutors and defense attorneys have agreed to a pool of 225 potential jurors but disagreed on numerous other issues, including whether or not Grell even should be referred to as "the defendant."
 
I am sick. Now this baby murderer is trying to get the death penalty removed. Did this Angel have a second chance on her horrendous torture of being burned alive?!!! It broke my heart even more when I read that she walked around for a bit stomping her little feet. How horrible!

:furious:
 
OK what gets me is the number of Mothers who leave their children with men they barely know. Here in Ohio about 8 years ago there was a two year old killed by her mothers bf. The mother met this man on the net and allowed him to move in with her and her children in about a month. You cant know someone well enough to trust w your children from just a month or two. I personally have only a couple of people I trust with my precious babies. Each time i hear one of these stories I want to find the mom and smack her upside the head. Why do they do something so irresponsible?
 

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