AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[twinkiesmom]

There is not a law in AZ that guns must be locked. Maybe it seems common sense in today's world, but the NRA cannot legislate state laws. The truth is that the father trusted his son.

It doesn't matter that there is not a specific gun lock-up law. There are criminal negligence and criminal endangerment laws that would be applicable to this situation in every state of the union.

IMO, the Roamans have an excellent case for wrongful death against the Romero estate, should they decide to go that route.

 

[Trino]

IMO, the Roamans have an excellent case for wrongful death against the Romero estate, should they decide to go that route.

This family should go for it IMO. Mr. Romans was their only source of income.

 

[colette]

I really feel sorry for the Roman family, yes they should have a wrongful death suite. It's a slap in the face of this poor dead man that this kid get's a Thanksgiving visit. He is not even cold in his grave and this little double murderer is gonna getting exactly what he wants. It doesn't bode well to his punishment or treatment in the future in my opinion.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It doesn't matter that there is not a specific gun lock-up law. There are criminal negligence and criminal endangerment laws that would be applicable to this situation in every state of the union.

IMO, the Roamans have an excellent case for wrongful death against the Romero estate, should they decide to go that route.

Do you have a link that says that is true in AZ?

I did find the Parent Liability Child's Act but it doesn't include Arizona.

http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/parent-liability-child-s-act#selected-state-laws

 

[MeoW333]

Do you have a link that says that is true in AZ?

I did find the Parent Liability Child's Act but it doesn't include Arizona.

http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/parent-liability-child-s-act#selected-state-laws

Well maybe Arizona will start now...

 

[gitana1]

I haven't heard of many? Do you have the number on how many children shoot themselves accidentally each year and I thought that was more about finding handguns not youth model 22 rifles. Some of the handguns even belonged to a parent in law enforcement.

Of course now we know he couldn't be trusted. He said he did these things behind his father's back so the father never knew his son couldn't be trusted.

imoo

Here's some statistics:
This one states that 500 kids per year are killed in accidental gun incidents:
http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php
Here's a quote from another:
Children and Guns

• <LI class=FirstChild jQuery1227215469937="82">Every day in America, 13 young people ages 19 and under are killed in gun homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. www.handguncontrol.org
• In 1995, 3.280 children and teenagers were murdred with guns, 1,450 commited suicide with guns, and 440 died in unintentional shootings. Firearms killed a total of 5,285 of our young people. National Center for Health Statistics. 1997
• In 1994, about 70% of the murder victims ages 15-17 years old were killed with a handgun. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1996
• Two in 25 high school students (7.9%) reported having carried a gun in the last 30 days. Centers for Disease Control, 1995
• Gunshot wounds are the second leading cause of death for all people aged 10-34. National Center for Health Statistics, 1993
• For every child killed by a gun, four are wounded. Annest, Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995
• "The firearm injury epidemic, due largely to handgun injuries, is ten times larger than the polio epidemic of the first half of this century."Christoffel, Children's Environments, 1995

http://rileychildrenshospital.com/p...ness-center/commed/parents-firearm-safety.jsp

Here's the NRA's take on the statistics:
"Smart" Guns and Firearm Safety for Kids

In their call for "smart" gun technology as the answer to accidental shootings of children, anti-gun groups often grossly exaggerate the number of such shootings. They commonly make references to accidental shootings in one breath and allege in the next that there are 5,000 children killed with guns each year. However, the number of children killed in firearm accidents each year is less than 200. According to the latest figures from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 1996, 138 children died in gun accidents, compared to 3,015 in car crashes and 966 in drownings. Fatal gun accidents accounted for 2.2% of the accidental deaths for children aged 15 and younger. The annual number of fatal firearm accidents among children has dropped 75% since 1975 and is now the lowest ever recorded. Firearm accidents have also decreased among the general population due to the same reason they have declined among children: education.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=38

More statistics from the Centers for Disease Control:
STATISTICS ON GUNS and KIDS
[FONT=helvetica,Arial]Deaths and Injuries [/FONT][SIZE=+0]
&#149; Every eight hours a child or teen was killed in a firearm-related accident or suicide in 2001.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, "Deaths: Final Data for 2001." NVSR Vol. 52, No. 3. 116 pp. (PHS) 2003-1120.

&#149; On average, 4 children died every day in non-homicide firearm incidents from 1996-2001. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1996-2001.

&#149; From 1996-2001, more than 1,530 children were killed in firearm accidents. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1996-2001.

&#149; In 2002, there were 13,053 kids injured by a firearm -- and an additional 16,182 kids were injured from BB or pellet guns. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control and the Consumer Product Safety Commission, "National Electronic Injury Surveillance System All Injury Program," 2002.

&#149; On average during each of the last 10 years (1992-2001), 1,273 kids committed suicide with a firearm each year; more than 145 each year were kids under 15-years-old. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1992-1998, 1999-2001.

&#149; The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 46(05): 101-105, February 07, 1997.
http://www.pueblo.us/cgi-bin/gt/tpl_page.html,template=1&content=911&nav1=1&
[/SIZE]

 

[MeoW333]

I haven't heard of many? Do you have the number on how many children shoot themselves accidentally each year and I thought that was more about finding handguns not youth model 22 rifles. Some of the handguns even belonged to a parent in law enforcement.

Of course now we know he couldn't be trusted. He said he did these things behind his father's back so the father never knew his son couldn't be trusted.

imoo

Here OBE is a link to a list of school shootings that involved children taking rifles to school.
http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cach...ren+shot+with+rifles&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

and some more info..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control) "[/FONT]
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

 

[MeoW333]

Here's some statistics:
This one states that 500 kids per year are killed in accidental gun incidents:
http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php
Here's a quote from another:
Children and Guns

• <LI class=FirstChild jQuery1227215469937="82">Every day in America, 13 young people ages 19 and under are killed in gun homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. www.handguncontrol.org
• In 1995, 3.280 children and teenagers were murdred with guns, 1,450 commited suicide with guns, and 440 died in unintentional shootings. Firearms killed a total of 5,285 of our young people. National Center for Health Statistics. 1997
• In 1994, about 70% of the murder victims ages 15-17 years old were killed with a handgun. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1996
• Two in 25 high school students (7.9%) reported having carried a gun in the last 30 days. Centers for Disease Control, 1995
• Gunshot wounds are the second leading cause of death for all people aged 10-34. National Center for Health Statistics, 1993
• For every child killed by a gun, four are wounded. Annest, Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995
• "The firearm injury epidemic, due largely to handgun injuries, is ten times larger than the polio epidemic of the first half of this century."Christoffel, Children's Environments, 1995

http://rileychildrenshospital.com/p...ness-center/commed/parents-firearm-safety.jsp

Here's the NRA's take on the statistics:
"Smart" Guns and Firearm Safety for Kids

In their call for "smart" gun technology as the answer to accidental shootings of children, anti-gun groups often grossly exaggerate the number of such shootings. They commonly make references to accidental shootings in one breath and allege in the next that there are 5,000 children killed with guns each year. However, the number of children killed in firearm accidents each year is less than 200. According to the latest figures from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 1996, 138 children died in gun accidents, compared to 3,015 in car crashes and 966 in drownings. Fatal gun accidents accounted for 2.2% of the accidental deaths for children aged 15 and younger. The annual number of fatal firearm accidents among children has dropped 75% since 1975 and is now the lowest ever recorded. Firearm accidents have also decreased among the general population due to the same reason they have declined among children: education.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=38

More statistics from the Centers for Disease Control:
STATISTICS ON GUNS and KIDS
[FONT=helvetica,Arial]Deaths and Injuries [/FONT][SIZE=+0]
• Every eight hours a child or teen was killed in a firearm-related accident or suicide in 2001.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, "Deaths: Final Data for 2001." NVSR Vol. 52, No. 3. 116 pp. (PHS) 2003-1120.

• On average, 4 children died every day in non-homicide firearm incidents from 1996-2001. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1996-2001.

• From 1996-2001, more than 1,530 children were killed in firearm accidents. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1996-2001.

• In 2002, there were 13,053 kids injured by a firearm -- and an additional 16,182 kids were injured from BB or pellet guns. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control and the Consumer Product Safety Commission, "National Electronic Injury Surveillance System All Injury Program," 2002.

• On average during each of the last 10 years (1992-2001), 1,273 kids committed suicide with a firearm each year; more than 145 each year were kids under 15-years-old. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics, 1992-1998, 1999-2001.

• The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 46(05): 101-105, February 07, 1997.
http://www.pueblo.us/cgi-bin/gt/tpl_page.html,template=1&content=911&nav1=1&
[/SIZE]

Wow Gitana; you did a great job finding statistics you beat me to it! :blowkiss:

 

[CyberLaw]

Of goodness sake, it is a no brainer.

If you have kids, you lock up the guns from the kids. At least until they are adults.

Give me a break, kids and guns mix like oil and water.

I wonder how many lives would be saved if there was a enforceable law that ensured that kids no access to guns.

Many accidents and homicides would be prevented.

Question: Did this kid know and understand his "Miranda" rights. Could he understand what they meant. Did he sign a waver "giving" up his rights.

Unreal.......

 

[GlitchWizard]

....
Question: Did this kid know and understand his "Miranda" rights. Could he understand what they meant. Did he sign a waver "giving" up his rights.

Unreal.......

Can an 8 year old sign a legal signature?

 

[gitana1]

Compare the NRA stats on accidental gun deaths of children (138 per year, which, by the way, does not jive with Centers for Disease Control stats nor with other governmental or scientific studies), with the stats on non-family child abductions each year which result in ransom or murder: 200-300. We do alot to keep our kids safe from the very rare stranger abduction that leads to murder. It seems a little gun safety in a nation as big as ours, with as many guns as ours, seems prudent. Do you trust your 8 year old to babysit your infant alone, overnight? How about to drive your car? But we trust them with access to loaded weapons that can be used to kill from a distance? Kids disobey -all kids, to one degree or another. Kids are curious, they misbehave and they lack sufficient frontal lobe development to control their impulses well or to see what potential consequences can be. That's basic child development. And that's why we need to keep their environment as safe as reasonably possible. Murder is not what I would be afraid of, just simple accidents. So yes, I think dad was negligent here. But he should not have paid for that with his life. It's horrible.

 

[Trino]

So yes, I think dad was negligent here. But he should not have paid for that with his life. It's horrible.

Again, according to AZ law, the dad would not have been prosecuted for leaving the gun accessible to his son. AZ has no lock up law. However,

ARIZONA: Parents are liable for intentional acts of their children that injure others or damage their property. Parents can be held automatically liable for up to $10,000 in damage. Although not automatic, under some circumstances, this legal responsibility may extend to the full value of the victim's damages. http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/parent-liability-child-s-act

 

[liljim]

yikes the gun used was a single shot bolt action 22 rifle, meaning between EVERY shot the shooter had to pull the bolt back to eject the cartridge, then load another bullet by hand, and then push the bolt forward and pull the trigger.

eep.

there was also an approximately 8 yard blood trickle to where they found tim's body, meaning he was shot and was trying to advance on the shooter, making it 8 yards before he was finally dead.

someone said earlier there was a witness that puts the child in the house right after school with no body on the lawn - can you provide a source for that? im not seeing it anywhere. thanx.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/fromcomments/103117.php


Prosecutors have disclosed a list of about 30 witnesses they could call to testify in the case and have turned over a police interview with the boy and photographs of the crime scene and autopsies of Romans and Romero. Roca gave attorneys for the boy two weeks to provide disclosure to prosecutors.

 

[southcitymom]

Really? Just curious would you be equally happy if he was going to be having this happy holiday next door to your family?

I still think the gun conversation is being blown out of proportion. Yes, clearly the child was not trustworthy with a gun, but in general those common sense guidelines to keep guns out of the unsupervised reach of children are to prevent accidents not homicides. That is the tragedy that befalls normal happy eight year old boys that gain access to an unsupervised gun, not a premeditated double homicide. I think gun or not, this day or another tragedy was going to befall this boy and his family and that is the why I want to know more about.

I think I would be. I wonder if his Mom is scared.

 

[southcitymom]

Do you have a link that says that is true in AZ?

I did find the Parent Liability Child's Act but it doesn't include Arizona.

http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/parent-liability-child-s-act#selected-state-laws

That's interesting, OBE - thanks for posting.

 

[southcitymom]

.....Question: Did this kid know and understand his "Miranda" rights. Could he understand what they meant. Did he sign a waver "giving" up his rights.

Unreal.......

Of course he doesn't.

I don't think his confession will be necessary for LE to prove a case against him. However, I agree that once the interview uncovered him as a suspect to LE, he needed an adult (Mom, GAL, attorney) in there with him - if nothing else but to even out the balance of power.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi

QUOTE
there was also an approximately 8 yard blood trickle to where they found tim's body, meaning he was shot and was trying to advance on the shooter, making it 8 yards before he was finally dead.

Can I please ask where you heard or saw this.Is there a link to the crime scene information?

suzanne

 

[SoobsinMI]

IMO, those statistics are skewed, if only because they don't differentiate between legally owned guns, and illegal guns (how many of those children were killed by gun toting gang members?) All those children killed were NOT killed by lawful guns in their own homes.

 

[Bobbisangel]

http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=12959&nextimage=7

I wonder if this is his step mom?

Photo #8

I don't think that it is because in #13 the same woman is opening the door of the truck that is pulling a small trailor that LE carry some of their equipment in. She must be with LE just not in uniform.