Broken once or twice?

[BBB167893]

"I mean, wouldn't that be totally unprecedented in crime? Placing a garrote over a dead person? That idea seems very remote."

This whole case is unprecedented!

"Looks like a dry old paint brush handle that snapped easily when broken during a sloppy staging. One of those things that make me slide off the fence into the no intruder yard. Beleive me, I've tried hard to find an intruder."

So have I. From what I understand, the brush handle was cellulose, which isn't really that hard to damage.

"If it was staging, why would the ligatures have all the right knots in all the right places?"

They didn't, according to Mike Kane, Werner Spitz and the FBI guys.

"Why would this elaborate combination weapon, obviously capable of restraining, quiet control, coersion, and even murder, not be given any role in a murder where the victim was obviously restrained, kept quiet, coerced, and murdered?"

Because she wasn't restrained, was most likely unconscious, and died from a combination of factors, per pathology.

"If there was staging, it didn't involve the garrote or second ligature because they were fully functional and the crime scene photos prove it."

Not according to several case insiders. They don't prove it. The autopsy report and FBI opinions contradict this reasoning.

"The sloppy staging idea is ruled out."

Oh, yeah?

Werner Spitz: "Someone took a good deal of time to stage strangulation and sexual assault. All of this happened after she was unconscious."

"Consider this...one of her parents grabs her by the collar, and choking her, strikes her on the head out of rage, hears the sickening sound of her skull fracturing, sees her appearing lifeless as she slips into a coma,"

Spitz would agree. As do I, until something better comes along.

"I need to make this look like anything other than what happened since I'm too soft and pretty and rich to go to prison."

LOL! I like that! Rings true. Can you imagine Patsy in prison? She'd have been eaten alive. We all know what happens to child-killers in prison, don't we?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Werner Spitz: "Someone took a good deal of time to stage strangulation and sexual assault. All of this happened after she was unconscious."

I disagree, and I'm not sure why anyone would go against the crime scene photos, clearly showing the ligature still in the deep furrow around her neck. That just defies logic.


"Consider this...one of her parents grabs her by the collar, and choking her, strikes her on the head out of rage, hears the sickening sound of her skull fracturing, sees her appearing lifeless as she slips into a coma,"


Why would I consider something that's just a fiction? What rage? Where did the rage come from? When did JBR slip into a coma? According to whom?

"Spitz would agree. As do I, until something better comes along."

I'd wait.

 

[UKGuy]

Werner Spitz: "Someone took a good deal of time to stage strangulation and sexual assault. All of this happened after she was unconscious."

I disagree, and I'm not sure why anyone would go against the crime scene photos, clearly showing the ligature still in the deep furrow around her neck. That just defies logic.


"Consider this...one of her parents grabs her by the collar, and choking her, strikes her on the head out of rage, hears the sickening sound of her skull fracturing, sees her appearing lifeless as she slips into a coma,"


Why would I consider something that's just a fiction? What rage? Where did the rage come from? When did JBR slip into a coma? According to whom?

"Spitz would agree. As do I, until something better comes along."

I'd wait.

Holdontoyourhat,

I disagree, and I'm not sure why anyone would go against the crime scene photos, clearly showing the ligature still in the deep furrow around her neck. That just defies logic.

Because photos are not logic!

If the crime-scene has been staged then the crime-scene photos may reflect this.

Although there is a ligature around her neck, it is neatly circumferential, not skewed due to violent use.

And that particular ligature location may not be the one that killed her, the one in the photo may be staged.

The lethal ligature location may be located below this one, although Coroner Meyer stated Ligature Strangulation as the cause of death, he did not go into any detail regarding it.

The markings on JonBenet's lower neck bear all the signs of a strangulation.

Similar reasoning applies to this photo:
http://www.acandyrose.com/179paint-tote.jpg

Beneath the Blue brush is what looks like one end of the brush that was used to construct the garrote its hue and color seems to match that of the garrote/stick? But if you do not look closely all you will see is the Blue brush.


.

 

[shiloh]

Similar reasoning applies to this photo:
http://www.acandyrose.com/179paint-tote.jpg

Beneath the Blue brush is what looks like one end of the brush that was used to construct the garrote its hue and color seems to match that of the garrote/stick? But if you do not look closely all you will see is the Blue brush.

No, what you are seeing beneath it is not a broken brush. You are seeing the bristles of a separate paintbrush, with the metal attachment just to the right of that. That second brush is not broken.

 

[UKGuy]

No, what you are seeing beneath it is not a broken brush. You are seeing the bristles of a separate paintbrush, with the metal attachment just to the right of that. That second brush is not broken.

shiloh,

It sure looks like a broken brush, kinda like defies logic, if its just the bristle end , fair enough ..

.

 

[rashomon]

A sloppy staging, huh? Why did the sloppy stager break the handle? To make it more suitable or more manageable? To make it more foreign-faction weapon-like?

What really happened: The intruder used the sharp garrote handle as an additional weapon, to further threaten and control JBR. In fact, the modified paintbrush and both ligatures worked together as an elaborate weapon.

If it was staging, why would the ligatures have all the right knots in all the right places? Why would this elaborate combination weapon, obviously capable of restraining, quiet control, coersion, and even murder, not be given any role in a murder where the victim was obviously restrained, kept quiet, coerced, and murdered?

If there was staging, it didn't involve the garrote or second ligature because they were fully functional and the crime scene photos prove it.

The sloppy staging idea is ruled out.

The garrote was not functional at all. Have you read Delmar England's analysis of the garrote? Just curious.
The same goes for 'restrain'. These ligatures did not restrain at all.
'Control' JonBenet? A dead body? Remember duct tape was put on the dead child's mouth.
All this just screams staging imo - very poor staging.

 

[Paradox]

The garrote was not functional at all. Have you read Delmar England's analysis of the garrote? Just curious.
The same goes for 'restrain'. These ligatures did not restrain at all.
'Control' JonBenet? A dead body? Remember duct tape was put on the dead child's mouth.
All this just screams staging imo - very poor staging.

Yes, staging. But for who? Maybe all the staging was for the one that would know what it all meant:the perp.

 

[trixie]

shiloh,

It sure looks like a broken brush, kinda like defies logic, if its just the bristle end , fair enough ..

.

I 've seen a much clearer and I think a better close up picture of this and the broken off end of the brush with bristles is definetly there. I wish I could remember where I saw that particular picture.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The garrote was not functional at all.

What you say here is in direct opposition to the crime scene photos, that clearly show the garrote tight in the deep furrow around JBR's neck. Why oppose the crime scene evidence with this remote idea?

These ligatures did not restrain at all.

Nobody knows exactly what the ligatures did. How are you able to make this conclusion? Please don't tell me it was because the ligature was loose at the time it was found, because that's no indication of how or when it was used.

 

[Paradox]

What you say here is in direct opposition to the crime scene photos, that clearly show the garrote tight in the deep furrow around JBR's neck. Why oppose the crime scene evidence with this remote idea?

It didn't function as a garrote, in the classical, dictionary meaning of garrote.

In other words the handle was probably not pulled to tighten the cord. The tightening was done with the cord itself.

It was not a garrote.

It may not have even been a device that served to strangle, as that may have allready happened by other means.

The device squeezed the neck to a depth of 1/2" or 3/8" or whatever and it caused damage to the skin and underlying tissue, but it is not clear what it was intended to do.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The idea that a foreign faction broke in and assaulted JonBenet in her own home and used items from the house to kill her and then write a ransom note but not bother to take the person they are ransoming with them is way out in left field.

When they 'bothered' to take the person with them back to foreign faction, were they going to take them as a carry-on? Hello?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

HOTYH

The ransom note, which you believe should be regarded as fact, claims the purpose of being in the house in the first place is to kidnap the young daughter of John Ramsey and hold her for ransom.

If this foreign faction was there to kidnap her, they must have had somewhere to take her once they left the house with her.

So why didn't they bother to take the kidnap victim with them? They had to have had somewhere to take her. They could have ransomed the body - and should have, since their stated purpose in being the Ramsey house period was to kidnap the little girl for ransom.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH

The ransom note, which you believe should be regarded as fact, ...

No I don't. The RN is a mix of truth and lies, IMO. But the author's a literalist. The author referred to beheading JBR. Did you notice that that would've been within the ability of the 'sloppy staged prop' of a 'not really a garrote' if its user was so inclined?

 

[shiloh]

It is entirely possible that if intruders were responsible for this, that if a marked police car wasn't parked right out in front of their house, that there might have been a phone call that morning after Christmas, and JR would have been instructed on where to take the money, and then after making the drop, told that his daughter was in his basement.

 

[rashomon]

HOTYH

The ransom note, which you believe should be regarded as fact, claims the purpose of being in the house in the first place is to kidnap the young daughter of John Ramsey and hold her for ransom.

If this foreign faction was there to kidnap her, they must have had somewhere to take her once they left the house with her.

So why didn't they bother to take the kidnap victim with them? They had to have had somewhere to take her. They could have ransomed the body - and should have, since their stated purpose in being the Ramsey house period was to kidnap the little girl for ransom.

Exactly. Imo any intruder theory which can't explain this basic contradiction is not worth the paper it is written on.
Did e. g. Lou Smit ever try to come up with an explanation why JB's dead body was left in the house together with the ransom note? Not that I remember.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It is entirely possible that if intruders were responsible for this, that if a marked police car wasn't parked right out in front of their house, that there might have been a phone call that morning after Christmas, and JR would have been instructed on where to take the money, and then after making the drop, told that his daughter was in his basement.

True, and like the Bobby Franks murder, the perps may not have actually needed the money. It could have had more to do with thier anger or hate, and/or their excitement or satisfaction of having done it and gotten away with it.

 

[BBB167893]

"Nobody knows exactly what the ligatures did. How are you able to make this conclusion? Please don't tell me it was because the ligature was loose at the time it was found, because that's no indication of how or when it was used."

Okay, how does this hit you: the autopsy report said that there were no marks on her wrists from the cord.

"Because photos are not logic! If the crime-scene has been staged then the crime-scene photos may reflect this. Although there is a ligature around her neck, it is neatly circumferential, not skewed due to violent use. And that particular ligature location may not be the one that killed her, the one in the photo may be staged."

You hit the nail on the head, UKGuy, with one thing I might add: a crime scene photo only reflects what meets the eye. It's a long way from a pathology examination!

 

[Rupert]

True, and like the Bobby Franks murder, the perps may not have actually needed the money. It could have had more to do with thier anger or hate, and/or their excitement or satisfaction of having done it and gotten away with it.

Hat,
I respect your theory, I've gone down that road. It is very possible that the perp really was into these movies, young and angry at the local rich people. That would put him near student age, or atleast connected to it. I saw this myself at university where students of all varied economic backgrounds (thus political perspective) mix and confront. I looked at the U. of C. NI/APAC Bluecrab connection and found the coincidences of K.J.L.B, I.N.A.C, S.J.N.I period separators astounding, as did Bluecrab. Consider, a wide awaake anarchist meeting young commerce student JR thru NI/APAC and learning all about John's victory Esprit Award at the university, John's employment and success by a major weapon's factory, John's recent billion dollar success, and yes, John's beautiful little Miss America daughter. Who knows maybe the perp was from Charlevoix, Michigan, steeped in the local lore of Leopold's summer mansion and Bobby Frank's murder (The Crime of the Century). Stop Bombing Third World Countries; 118th Street where Bobby Franks was found - all very intriguing.

Then we have CW (with his political viewpoint) who coincidently knew Susannah Chase. Might he be innocent but still know more, or is this too scary?

Then we have Jayelles intriguing thought about SS who looked after NI and must have learned all about APAC. She got away with a 'sophomoric joke' by pretending to be a cop. Leopold & Loeb practiced 'sophomoric jokes'.

What can we tell from the staging clues.
The Boulder Business Review magazine with John circled by a heart on the cover page story of his Esprit Award at the university seems to be reaching for any Ramsay to think up after the distress of killing their daughter. Unless of course Patsy was telling John she loved him. But then why the X's on the others on the same cover? Why would Patsy need to do that? Shades of "Richochet" (another kidnap crime movie).

Why no mention of Burke or Patsy in the RN? Why not threaten their life? Obviously, because it was all about JonBenet and her Dad. If Patsy wrote the note, then why didn't she have the sense to threaten Burke's life as well? Obviously, because she was just trying to make her statement to John and blame him? Kind of fits with "you stand a 100% chance of killing your daughter" and "It's up to you now John!". On the other hand it could be an anarchist trying to blame John the father, exactly just like perp did in "Ricochet" and symbolized by the heart and x's on the news cover story in the movie.

Ahh, warm me up. Here come the flames.

I have my theory, either it was an intruder or it wasn't.

Maybe an intruder with anarchist anger, keen knowledge of The Crime of the Century, and recent encounter with the Ramsays might explain a garrot first, head bash second, and leave behind a declaration of victory for his buddies.

Or we have some sloppiness, some lawyers, and some strange statements. Sometimes what appears on the surface is actually a clear view of the bottom.

Just the cold hard facts, mame.

 

[BBB167893]

"Maybe an intruder with anarchist anger, keen knowledge of The Crime of the Century, and recent encounter with the Ramseys might explain a garrot first, head bash second, and leave behind a declaration of victory for his buddies."

Except whomever the writer was couldn't even decide what KIND of terrorist they were, Rupert! The "foreign" and "beheading" business were designed (imo) to suggest Islamic militants. The "fat cat" angle seems to suggest socialist/communist anarchists!

 

[Britt]

Nobody knows exactly what the ligatures did. How are you able to make this conclusion?

Okay, how does this hit you: the autopsy report said that there were no marks on her wrists from the cord.

Exactly, SD. Even if the wrist cord were tied tightly, JB was unconscious or dead at the time. How can an unconscious or dead child be "restrained"?

Please don't tell me it was because the ligature was loose at the time it was found, because that's no indication of how or when it was used.

You mean the cord was not as it appeared? Why not apply that same logic to the rest of the crime scene?