CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

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JerseyGirl said:
www.tmz.com

Menendez Brothers Say New 'Menudo' Evidence Backs Up Sex Abuse Allegations Against Dad

The Menendez Brothers say they have new evidence backing up their claims that their father was sexually abusing them.
www.tmz.com www.tmz.com
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Even if there was sex abuse- murder was not the appropriate solution-- they could have left the home - they could have gone to the police. They cold-bloodedly murdered their parents and went on a spending spree-- I hope they stay right where they are.
 
ilovewings said:
Even if there was sex abuse- murder was not the appropriate solution-- they could have left the home - they could have gone to the police. They cold-bloodedly murdered their parents and went on a spending spree-- I hope they stay right where they are.
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They never said, at any time, that they had the right to kill their parents. They've never justified it. They were afraid that their parents would kill them; they saw it as a "kill or be killed" situation, which means that it should have been prosecuted as a manslaughter case.

As for the "spending spree", nothing that they spent came from the estate, everything they bought was approved of by their relatives. Lyle, in particular, had always spent a lot of money. For them, that was normal. They grew up with wealth.

The "they could have left/gone to the police" argument, is just not that simple. People of all ages have killed their abusers out of fear. When a person tries to leave an abusive situation, that's often the most dangerous time, and leaving is not a guarantee of safety. Abusers have killed their victims after they leave, and this is what the brothers also feared. Jose Menendez was a wealthy, powerful man, they didn't believe that they could successfully get away from him. Given that this happened in 1989, it's highly unlikely that the police would have believed them - if they weren't believed during the trials, what makes you think they would have been believed prior to that?

Watching the first trial is vitally important to understanding the case. This case has been distorted so much in the media (and by the prosecutors and pro-prosecution people such as the late Dominick Dunne, who frequently lied in interviews), so by watching that, you'll see the evidence, the expert testimony, and the weakness of the prosecution's case. They were unable to prove any of their theories, which was why the second time around the prosecution and judge did everything in their power to block and/or limit evidence to ensure a conviction.

In both trials, the prosecution tried to claim that Jose and Kitty were loving parents who didn't abuse their children and that Jose never sexually abused his sons. Roy Rossello coming forward destroys the prosecution's argument, which means that the Menendez brothers should not have been convicted of first-degree murder. Manslaughter would have been the appropriate sentence, which still would have resulted in a lengthy prison term. They were not going to "get off".
 
ktla.com

Menendez brothers’ attorney wants convictions expunged, citing bombshell letter as new evidence

Erik and Lyle Menendez have two new pieces of evidence backing their claim their father was molesting them, according to their attorney Mark Geragos. This comes in the wake of an explosive new docu…
ktla.com ktla.com
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Geragos said both pieces of evidence show that the exclusion of abuse in the second trial was wrong and thinks if the jury had heard all the evidence, the brothers wouldn’t be in jail. When asked what he wants, Geragos said he wants the brothers’ record expunged.
 
The prosecution's arguments have not aged well, especially in light of recent events. David Conn insisting that Jose would never sexually abuse his sons, or he and the other prosecutors insinuating that any physical and emotional abuse was just "discipline" is nauseating. It also speaks volumes that Pamela Bozanich (nee Ferraro) was one of the prosecutors in the second McMartin preschool trial, a case that has been deemed responsible for playing a large role in the "Satanic Panic". Children were influenced and coached into making false abuse allegations, and even stated that they had seen witches fly, had been flushed down toilets to secret rooms, etc, and despite losing that case, Bozanich still insists that the children, in that case, were abused, yet she finds the notion that Jose and Kitty Menendez sexually abused their sons to be "unbelievable". She can't stay away from interviews about the Menendez case, despite the fact that she and her co-counsel failed to get a conviction in the first trial and that they were unprepared and extremely ignorant.
 
Pamela Bozanich had been the prosecutor in a couple of high-profile cases, the first being the McMartin Pre-School Trial

McMartin Pre-School Trial​

Pamela Bozanich previously served as a prosecutor in the McMartin Preschool case. An infamous example of Satanic Panic and improper questioning of child witnesses, and the most expensive trial in American history.

The children, in that case, accused the defendants of flushing them down toilets into secret rooms, that they had the ability to fly, and that Chuck Norris was there.

Menendez Case​

Bozanich was assigned as lead prosecutor for the Menendez Murder trial. Her co-attorney was Lester Kuriyama.

Prosecution’s Theory​

The prosecution argued Lyle and Erik Menendez carried out a pre-meditated murder of their parents. Although their proposed motivation changed several times throughout the trial.

They were unable to prove financial gain as a motive, but the press latched on to the theory and it is still commonly believed.

Pamela unsuccessfully tried to prove Lyle was lying about his abuse testimony and tried to portray him as a manipulative sociopath. During the trial, she told the press that Lyle was acting when he'd testified about being raped by his father.

Statements​

  • She argued with a forensic expert who determined the crime scene showed an unplanned crime, by comparing the crime scene to a poorly planned wedding.
  • She asked Lyle Menendez if he considered buying a knife for self-defense. This, of course, makes no sense, because Jose was much larger and stronger than Lyle, and he and his wife both owned guns.
  • She argued that Lyle couldn't have been abused because of all the things his parents had bought for him.
  • She argued with psychologist Dr. Ann Tyler by asking "Did they have a bed? Did they have food?" in an attempt to dismiss her expert testimony the brothers had been abused.
  • She asked Dr. Ann Tyler if they had been locked in a closet, seemingly forgetting Erik's testimony that he had indeed been locked in a closet.
  • Tried to portray Judalon Smyth as a lover scorned, and asked if she'd wanted to have children with Dr. Oziel. Judalon replied that she did not want children who looked like Dr. Oziel.
  • Circular arguments that Lyle's abusive upbringing had prepared him to lie, therefore he was lying about being abused.
  • Argued that “men could not be raped because they lack the necessary equipment to be raped”.

Witnesses​

Pamela Bozanich put on several witnesses who were proven to have lied, or who directly contradict her other witnesses.

  • Detective Valentine: Proven to have lied about seeing Lyle Menendez at the US Open, based on plane tickets and boarding passes of Lyle's. Contradicted prosecuting witness Pat Heffernan.
  • Jamie Pisarcik: Proven to have lied based on her work records
  • Donovan Goodreau: Proven to have lied based on Robert Rand tape
  • Dr. Oziel: Proven to have lied based on Judalon Smyth's tapes

Aftermath​


The first trial ended in a mistrial, and the brothers were retried. Bozanich however, did not return as prosecutor for the second trial and was replaced by David Conn.

Bozanich has done interviews due to her involvement in the Menendez case. During the ABC 20/20 special Truth and Lies: The Menendez Brothers- American Sons American Murderers, Bozanich expressed her belief that the brothers made up the sexual abuse accusations, as well as her belief that family members lied for the brothers to protect them from receiving the death penalty.

She has also stated that life imprisonment is an appropriate punishment for the brothers and that she hopes they live a very long life.

menendez-brothers.fandom.com

Pamela Bozanich

" One kid killing the parents is a bad seed, two kids killing the parents is a bad family ."-Bozanich during an interview for the 2017, ABC 20/20 special Pamela Ann Bozanich (née Ferrero; born April 7, 1954) is a retired Prosecuting Attorney and the prosecutor of Lyle Menendez. Bozanich was born...
menendez-brothers.fandom.com menendez-brothers.fandom.com
 
For me, even if what the Menendez brothers say is true, that they were molested and even felt threatened, please tell me why they didn't leave the home instead of carrying out such a horrifying and brutal murder. I am unmoved. sorry. I believe they are where they belong. Were they imminently threatened at the moment they actually viciously murdered their parents? I am thinking not.
 
ilovewings said:
For me, even if what the Menendez brothers say is true, that they were molested and even felt threatened, please tell me why they didn't leave the home instead of carrying out such a horrifying and brutal murder. I am unmoved. sorry. I believe they are where they belong. Were they imminently threatened at the moment they actually viciously murdered their parents? I am thinking not.
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Many victims of abuse feel they can't leave. Their parents controlled everything. They knew that their father was a powerful man who had the resources to track them down in if they left; they didn't think they could successfully escape their parents, nor did they think anyone would believe them. There are people who kill their abusers out of fear, and they often do so when the abuser is vulnerable because the victim knows that they can't defend themselves during a confrontation, but that does not mean that the abuser has not been or is not a threat to them.

The brothers stated that they believed that their parents were going to kill them that night. They realized after the fact that they were mistaken but they still believe that it would have happened at some point. Jose was not going to let his sons live to expose the abuse or to leave, because he would be ruined and he would lose control over them. Kitty was Jose's partner in abusing their children and she too, would not have wanted the truth to come out. Lyle stated that he believed that their parents would kill him and Erik, and then tell people that they ran away - which is not far-fetched when you consider domestic homicides that have been covered up.

Manslaughter would have been an appropriate conviction in this case - 25 years - 10 years for each parent, plus a weapon charge - which means that the Menendez brothers were not going to "get off". That's the misconception that many people have about this case - neither the brothers nor their attorneys ever claimed that the killings were justified, or that the parents deserved to die. They were just trying to explain why it happened.
 
Noirdame79 said:
Manslaughter would have been an appropriate conviction in this case - 25 years - 10 years for each parent, plus a weapon charge - which means that the Menendez brothers were not going to "get off". That's the misconception that many people have about this case - neither the brothers nor their attorneys ever claimed that the killings were justified, or that the parents deserved to die. They were just trying to explain why it happened.
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RSBM

I think they should be able to get out given the sentence they have served.

For me, I look at all of the parents that abuse and kill their children and get out in 20. The rapists that serve little to no sentence. The DUI drivers that have 20 tickets, then they hit and kill someone to then only serve 10-20.

I honestly believe these boys were abused. I don’t see another motive and I don’t see complete evil in them. JMHO
 
I vaguely recall the trial and media claims of Menendez bros' motive for money, the over sensationalization of defense attorney with one of the brothers, etc. Had the new evidence been introduced into court it possibly would have made a difference? Agree with others, it’s time to free the brothers. MOO
 
LunaticFringe said:
They should have been sent to Death Row.I hope they both die in prison.
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Watch the first trial. The prosecution's case was extremely weak and they couldn't prove any of their theories. That was why, in the second trial, the judge and prosecutors did everything in their power to limit and block defense evidence and testimony, because they knew they wouldn't get a conviction without it.

It's bizarre that the D.A.'s Office sought the death penalty against the Menendez brothers, who had no history of violence prior to killing their parents, yet this same D.A.'s Office did not seek the death penalty against O.J. Simpson, who not only did have a history of violence but was known to have abused and stalked one of the people that he killed. It makes no sense.
 
LunaticFringe said:
They should have been sent to Death Row.I hope they both die in prison.
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Sadly think about the abused children out there- there are lots: if just half those children murdered their parents there would not be enough room in the prisons to hold them all.

The question for me is this: Were they in imminent danger: I don't believe that was the case, no matter what they say, and they say after the fact THEY REALIZED THEY WERE NOT IN IMMINENT DANGER THAT NIGHT!

It is fascinating how, with hindsight and social media, some of these murder cases get a new life. I am sure if Ted Bundy were still alive there would be those saying he really wasn't such a bad guy, and go thru his life's experiences- so maybe he should not have gotten the death penalty, blah blah blah.
 
Chelly said:
I am wondering now about gender bias. If the Menendez brothers had been girls, would they be out of prison by now?
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I think, yes; definitely yes. Had the sexual abuse been allowed in the 2nd trial, as it should have been, I don't think they'd have been convicted. I strongly recommend the documentary Menendez and Menudo.
 
ilovewings said:
Sadly think about the abused children out there- there are lots: if just half those children murdered their parents there would not be enough room in the prisons to hold them all.

The question for me is this: Were they in imminent danger: I don't believe that was the case, no matter what they say, and they say after the fact THEY REALIZED THEY WERE NOT IN IMMINENT DANGER THAT NIGHT!

It is fascinating how, with hindsight and social media, some of these murder cases get a new life. I am sure if Ted Bundy were still alive there would be those saying he really wasn't such a bad guy, and go thru his life's experiences- so maybe he should not have gotten the death penalty, blah blah blah.
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They believed at the time that they were imminent danger when they killed their parents. The fear was 100% real, which is why it should have ended in a manslaughter conviction.

People do kill their abusers out of fear. Not every situation is the same, some abuse victims feel they have no other option, which is where Learned Helplessness comes in.

The comparison with serial killers is ridiculous. Killing your abusers out of fear in no way compares to torturing and murdering a large number of people. There is no room for Ted Bundy or any other serial killer into this discussion.
 
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