Identified! CA - Dana Point, WhtFem 23UFCA, 18-23, cliff jump, Sep'87 - Holly Glynn

[Ambercat]

I found this case on the Doe Network: Case File 23UFCA
Unidentified White Female, 18-23 years old
Killed herself by jumping off a cliff in Dana Point, California on September 20, 1987
www.doenetwork.us/cases/23ufca.html

I think she may be a match to Marie Louise Andrus: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/andrus_marie.html

What is a match
The heights and weights are nearly identical (both 5'4" and around 130 lbs)
Marie disappeared on August 20, the unidentified woman was found a month later, September 20.
The locations are close. Marie disappeared from Siskiyou County, on the California/Oregon border. It's believed, from a map found in Jane Doe's possession, that she hitch-hiked through San Bernardino, Riverside, and Los Angeles counties to reach Dana Point. Marie's route down through the state would lead her through those areas.

What is not a match
Marie had a chip in her upper front tooth that is not noted on Jane Doe's file. She had brown hair (very light from the picture) and blue eyes; Jane Doe had strawberry blonde hair and brown eyes.
Jane Doe is estimated to be 18-23 years old; Marie is 27.

The photo of Marie isn't a very good one; she seems to be squinting. So it's hard to judge if her face is a match to Jane's or not, but the height/weight, dates, and location matches are very interesting to me. I wish I could find more information on these cases!

I've never done this before, so I'd be very grateful to hear any suggestions. Do you guys think this is close enough to notify authorities?

It is my understanding from the report on the Orange County Coroner Website http://egov.ocgov.com/ocgov/Sheriff...roner/Unidentified Dead/Jane DOES/87-04457-EL some of her teeth came out from the fall. I have to agree with Richard, I think that she is local, from Southern California and not new in the area.

 

[Ambercat]

I'm bumping this topic to state that Jane Doe's NamUs file was updated yesterday.

A link to it again: https://identifyus.org/cases/7661

A few notable change stuck out at me, and the first is the following in the scars and marks section:



While this isn't directly referring to her face, it seems obvious that she did have acne scarring, and that essentially answers the, "What are the mysterious marks under her eye?" question.

Her clothing is also described in more detail for the first time in any report that I'm aware of. According to the report, she was wearing a short dress of light brown color, and its size was medium. The dress' brand is listed as "Penie-Cal". Is anyone familiar with this brand? Google seems to turn up absolutely nothing.

The name seems to be a play on the word pinnacle, and there is a Pinnacle Boutique women's clothier that has been based out of Malibu since 1978. I haven't a clue whether the two are related. Pinnacle Malibu's site can be found here: http://pinnaclemalibu.com/ Their page is, quite honestly, largely incomplete and a mess.

Intriguingly, Jane died in Orange County. Orange County is immediately bordered to the South by San Diego County, and we have good reason to believe she was in San Diego. Malibu is in Los Angeles County. What's directly above Orange County? Los Angeles County. This might mean absolutely nothing, but it's at least something to look into.

The men's BVD underwear that she was wearing were size 34. This size would be currently sold as men's mediums.

Her shoes are described as canvas, turquoise in color, size six, and made in China. Though no brand is listed, I can only imagine that the shoes were cheaper clones of the ever-popular Converse Chuck Taylor All-Star canvas sneakers. If so, they would've looked similar to these: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5287/31ajbiya6clsx342.jpg Unfortunately, copies of Converse shoes are extremely common, and they could have been purchased almost anywhere and at almost any time. Canvas shoes are fairly flimsy but nigh indestructible, so she could have had them for years.

I haven't heard of Pennie-Cal brand clothing either. I wonder if someone could post a photo or sketch of the dress.

At the Hampton Inn in Mission Viejo, did she speak with anyone there? How did she get to the hotel in Mission Viejo? The map that she had in possession before she died, did it have any places marked on it?

 

[Ada Wong]

I haven't heard of Pennie-Cal brand clothing either. I wonder if someone could post a photo or sketch of the dress.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but I don't believe that a sketch or image of any of her clothes have ever been released. I even rechecked the Unsolved Mysteries segment to see if they had made an effort to recreate what she was wearing at the time, and they dressed their actress in a very light dress that has some sort of unidentifiable pattern on it. They did actually put her in what appear to be Converse shoes, but they're the wrong color. Also, the actress appears to be a bleached blonde, so they unfortunately were not going for accuracy on this one.

At the Hampton Inn in Mission Viejo, did she speak with anyone there? How did she get to the hotel in Mission Viejo? The map that she had in possession before she died, did it have any places marked on it?

To your first question, it's known that she spoke with the the desk clerk at the Hampton Inn. She inquired as to the presence of any tall buildings in the area. It's unknown what she was told, but she apparently gave up on the idea of jumping from a building after that point.

As for your second question, no one knows the answer to that for certain; however, it's believed that she probably hitchhiked into the area. If anyone ever came forward to say that they had transported her to the hotel, I've not seen a report of it.

For your final question, there were no reported markings. I'm apologetic for being not terribly informative with my responses, but there are still a lot of open questions on this case.

On a note unrelated to your questions, I somehow missed that the NamUs page was updated on March 1st. Hazel Alice Klug, who I did not have on my list of 100% ruled out persons, is now listed as ruled out. Hopefully a more complete list will be added to the page in the near future.

 

[Ambercat]

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but I don't believe that a sketch or image of any of her clothes have ever been released. I even rechecked the Unsolved Mysteries segment to see if they had made an effort to recreate what she was wearing at the time, and they dressed their actress in a very light dress that has some sort of unidentifiable pattern on it. They did actually put her in what appear to be Converse shoes, but they're the wrong color. Also, the actress appears to be a bleached blonde, so they unfortunately were not going for accuracy on this one.



To your first question, it's known that she spoke with the the desk clerk at the Hampton Inn. She inquired as to the presence of any tall buildings in the area. It's unknown what she was told, but she apparently gave up on the idea of jumping from a building after that point.

As for your second question, no one knows the answer to that for certain; however, it's believed that she probably hitchhiked into the area. If anyone ever came forward to say that they had transported her to the hotel, I've not seen a report of it.

For your final question, there were no reported markings. I'm apologetic for being not terribly informative with my responses, but there are still a lot of open questions on this case.

On a note unrelated to your questions, I somehow missed that the NamUs page was updated on March 1st. Hazel Alice Klug, who I did not have on my list of 100% ruled out persons, is now listed as ruled out. Hopefully a more complete list will be added to the page in the near future.

I posted a question on Yahoo Answers asking if anyone had information about Pennie-Cal clothing. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110412024300AAsTDiR I will let you know if anyone responds. I did a few searches on the Internet and didn't come up with anything, so I thought I would ask.

 

[Ada Wong]

I notice that the question was deleted. The page seems to suggest that Yahoo deleted it for violating their community guidelines, though I'm at an absolute loss as to how inquiry regarding a 1980s Californian clothing manufacturer could conceivably violate anything. Ambercat, were you informed as to what they found problematic regarding your question?

 

[Ambercat]

I notice that the question was deleted. The page seems to suggest that Yahoo deleted it for violating their community guidelines, though I'm at an absolute loss as to how inquiry regarding a 1980s Californian clothing manufacturer could conceivably violate anything. Ambercat, were you informed as to what they found problematic regarding your question?

I had to check my e-mail and look back because I didn’t remember Yahoo e-mailing me to tell me that they pulled my question. I rechecked and they never did, so I am going to revise it a little (because the only response that I got before was someone with a mail order website) ask again because I really don’t think that I was violating their community guidelines. The new question is at http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110419145300AAYksha

I am hoping that if I could find out more information about the company (and where it was sold), it would give me a hint about where the lady from Dana Point originated from. I vaguely remember seeing a tv show about a woman (Bun Chee Nyhuis) whose Texwood blue jeans helped identify her. In the case with Texwood, LE ended up contacting US Customs and inquired about the brand; that is where they got their information about the company. Therefore, I e-mailed them and asked about Pennie-Cal. I will let you know if and when they respond.

 

[Ada Wong]

Thank you for reposting it. Someone should recognize it regardless, but the NamUs page states that the label is Penie-Cal and not Pennie-Cal. At the time of this writing, your Yahoo! Answers question is nonetheless the top result for the properly spelled version.

 

[Ambercat]

Thank you for reposting it. Someone should recognize it regardless, but the NamUs page states that the label is Penie-Cal and not Pennie-Cal. At the time of this writing, your Yahoo! Answers question is nonetheless the top result for the properly spelled version.

I added a note with the correct spelling to my question on Yahoo. I also received a response from US Customs stating that if I am LE (which I am not), I should contact them at a specific phone number about the clothing. Otherwise, they did not give me any information about the brand.

When I was younger (in high school), I had some inexpensive clothing that I had purchased from various stores at the mall (Charlotte Russe, Contempo Casuals, Wet Seal, Jay Jacobs, etc) which had obscure brand names. I wonder if Penie-Cal was something like that?

 

[anyc]

RE: Owens as a poss match - IMO, this seems very unlikely, considering Owens had been arrested a few times in California; wouldn't she have popped up when they ran Jane Doe's fingerprints?

Also, (and I know this is a LONG shot). but I got to thinking about what you said about some people considering suicide a shameful act, and not wanting to associate themselves/look for missing family member who they believe has committed suicide. What if the purse belonged to her mother or another family member who didn't want to be associated with Jane Doe and her suicide? When the owner of the purse was found, she could have just lied and said it had been stolen, so as to distance herself completely from Jane Doe.

 

[Ada Wong]

What if the purse belonged to her mother or another family member who didn't want to be associated with Jane Doe and her suicide? When the owner of the purse was found, she could have just lied and said it had been stolen, so as to distance herself completely from Jane Doe.

I would certainly hope that something of that sort is not the case. Even if the purse's original owner had lied, it should have been obvious what the situation was if the owner had a family member that was known to be missing. Even if Jane Doe had not been reported missing at the time, it should still remain simple to check on the status of anyone related to the purse's original owner. At the bare minimum, her name and address at the time would, presumably, still be part of the case record.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that telling a lie of that sort would be a crime in the state of California. I am admittedly neither a lawyer nor a legal expert, but that at least seems to be the foundation of California Penal Code 148a.

California Penal Code § 148

§ 148. [ . . . ] (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to ex-ceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

 

[lieber32]

I would certainly hope that something of that sort is not the case. Even if the purse's original owner had lied, it should have been obvious what the situation was if the owner had a family member that was known to be missing. Even if Jane Doe had not been reported missing at the time, it should still remain simple to check on the status of anyone related to the purse's original owner. At the bare minimum, her name and address at the time would, presumably, still be part of the case record.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that telling a lie of that sort would be a crime in the state of California. I am admittedly neither a lawyer nor a legal expert, but that at least seems to be the foundation of California Penal Code 148a.

I work in LE and my dad is a retired lawyer and you are a hundred percent correct. I have even witnessed a person coming in for a background check that was wanted for this same exact charge. Because it is a Misdomener offence we had to call and have this person arrested. Wondering if said person reported her purse missing? The fact they traced it to her makes me think yes, I could be wrong however. Also I want to give a shout out to Ada Wong for the time she has devoted to this Jane Doe.

 

[carbuff]

Wait. It's a crime in California to fail to report someone missing????? Even if it's someone you have every reason to think is dead?

 

[Ada Wong]

Wait. It's a crime in California to fail to report someone missing????? Even if it's someone you have every reason to think is dead?

As far as I'm aware, no. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough before. Outside of very few situations, being asked to present license and identification if pulled over in a vehicle is one, you have every right to refuse to answer a single question posed to you by a law enforcement officer.

Pretend for a moment that you are the original owner of the purse, and you know exactly who Jane Doe is. In this case, the crime would be in making up a phony story about how the purse got into Jane Doe's possession, and the more serious issue would be in making an outright denial of knowing who the dead woman was.

Basically, your saying, "Yes, that's my purse," and offering no further comment would be perfectly legal. However, saying, "Yes, that's my purse. It was stolen ten years ago in San Diego, and I've never met that woman in my life," is a rather clear cut case of interfering with a public officer's attempt to discharge a duty of his or her office.

The crime isn't in failing to do anything. The crime is in directly lying about the facts of the situation.

 

[carbuff]

As far as I'm aware, no. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough before. Outside of very few situations, being asked to present license and identification if pulled over in a vehicle is one, you have every right to refuse to answer a single question posed to you by a law enforcement officer.

Pretend for a moment that you are the original owner of the purse, and you know exactly who Jane Doe is. In this case, the crime would be in making up a phony story about how the purse got into Jane Doe's possession, and the more serious issue would be in making an outright denial of knowing who the dead woman was.

Basically, your saying, "Yes, that's my purse," and offering no further comment would be perfectly legal. However, saying, "Yes, that's my purse. It was stolen ten years ago in San Diego, and I've never met that woman in my life," is a rather clear cut case of interfering with a public officer's attempt to discharge a duty of his or her office.

The crime isn't in failing to do anything. The crime is in directly lying about the facts of the situation.

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

I do think it's possible that Jane Doe's family didn't report her missing because they were convinced she had killed herself. But I doubt very much that she had anything to do with Purse Lady.

 

[lieber32]

I work in LE and my dad is a retired lawyer and you are a hundred percent correct. I have even witnessed a person coming in for a background check that was wanted for this same exact charge. Because it is a Misdomener offence we had to call and have this person arrested. Wondering if said person reported her purse missing? The fact they traced it to her makes me think yes, I could be wrong however. Also I want to give a shout out to Ada Wong for the time she has devoted to this Jane Doe.

I want to clariy as my previous quote may not have been clear. No not reporting a lost person who is not a juvenile is not a crime. Making false statements is. That is what I meant. The person that was wanted reported lost items that they pawned at a local pawn shop and reported stolen and was found out and charged for making a false report. It was totally not worded correctly which I found on rereading, sorry. So if said person reported stolen purse and had a missing daughter at the same time said person could have been charged with giving a false report but as from what I read I can't see that I think this was probrably a stolen item reported stolen with no missing family member.

 

[lieber32]

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

I do think it's possible that Jane Doe's family didn't report her missing because they were convinced she had killed herself. But I doubt very much that she had anything to do with Purse Lady.

I agree with you on the purse lady (don't think their is a connection to our Jane Doe beside she acquired purse after being lost or stolen by original owner and aquired sometime by our Doe) but disagree on being able at least leagally to refuse to show your drivers liscence if pulled over by an officer. If you don't show valid drivers liscence you will be charged with driving without proper drivers liscence. Yes this is a city ordiance violation but can still cost you money or a few days jail. I see this charge a lot, probrably besides peace disturbance, and driving without insurance the most common charge I see when running background checks. Again they are not serious crimes but can still cost you money, time and possibly a few days jail. After a few years they tend to fall off you record and are not charges that will influence employment, housing etc.

 

[carbuff]

I agree with you on the purse lady (don't think their is a connection to our Jane Doe beside she acquired purse after being lost or stolen by original owner and aquired sometime by our Doe) but disagree on being able at least leagally to refuse to show your drivers liscence if pulled over by an officer. If you don't show valid drivers liscence you will be charged with driving without proper drivers liscence. Yes this is a city ordiance violation but can still cost you money or a few days jail. I see this charge a lot, probrably besides peace disturbance, and driving without insurance the most common charge I see when running background checks. Again they are not serious crimes but can still cost you money, time and possibly a few days jail. After a few years they tend to fall off you record and are not charges that will influence employment, housing etc.

I'm sorry, I've lost track of something here. What you say makes sense, but what does the driver's license have to do with it? You mean because the license would have been in the purse, and Purse Lady would have to replace it?

 

[webrocket]

just out of curiosity, I did a search with the California Secretary of State's website for corporation information.

there was nothing at all matching "penie" and only two things matching "pennie", neither of which led me to believe they had anything to do with clothing.

I did the same with Delaware, where most corporations are formed and there was nothing with "penie" and the match for "pennie" shed no light on the question.

in any event, none of the remote possible matches had anything like a "-cal".

 

[annemc2]

Interesting, webrocket. I checked the Mexican google, thinking it might be a south-of-the-border brand and got...nada. I even tried a few variations of penie (peine, etc) in cast the letters were transposed and got nothing of interest.

 

[Ambercat]

I looked around a lot and the closest brand of clothing I could find was one called "Penny C" that comes from Australia, but that is really a stretch. If she was from Australia originally (which I doubt), her accent would have stood out.