Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #2

[greenthumb]

I really do not believe this theory at all but -

What if the grandparents were aware of some impending consequences of bad business management (huge debts to be repaid? liability on some issue? misrepresentation/fraud? misuse of funds? etc) and decided that they needed to disappear, even if just for a while? So - they put into motion the selling of the house, divesting themselves of all their possessions through the estate sale, etc to pull together some cash - and were vague with friends/family about their future plans (hence the uncertainty of family about how long they planned to be in Mexico, and the different info coming from neighbours about moving north/south). If they really wanted to disappear, could they have purchased fake passports for themselves - and maybe Nathan, too? - and been across the border in a recently purchased vehicle (bought with cash and registered in their new, false, names and stored in a nearby location easily walked to on Sunday night) before they were even noticed missing? And the house ransacked to make it look like they were kidnapped to throw off LE as well as family.

Family members have implied that Nathan was 'special' to both grandma and grandpa - so maybe they couldn't bear to leave him behind as they ran toward some new life to escape something that only they knew was about to happen in their 'real' life?

All just wild speculation.

The solidarity shown by so many members of this family showing up at the news conference yesterday suggests to me that this is not something that would happen in this family. But - nothing else in this case seems to make sense, either.

 

[KMouse]

How difficult would it be to get across the border with a child? "They" (either grandparents or abductors) wouldn't have any papers for Nathan I would presume.

I am Canadian and live less than two hours from the U.S border. I have crossed with my husband and without and with different combinations of my kids or my Mom. One of my kids has a different last name (remarriage for me) and we have never been asked for a letter from the Dad (even though we always have one).

However, if one is to pass through a border it is recorded in the system and there are cameras.

If the border is unmanned the cameras are still going.

I doubt these people crossed at a border crossing. If they did go into the U.S. then they would have done it through a farmer`s field. If so, how did they get there.

 

[KMouse]

Not true.
They need passports. My boss and his kids are traveling to the States this summer, and they need passports. Both kids are under 16.

If the L's and N are not intending to leave Canada, then none of them will need passports. They'll just need birth certificates. I also find it difficult for them to leave the country with N. He is not a biological child. He's a grandchild and he doesn't share the same last name as the L's. In order for the L's (or anyone) to take N across the border, they would need a notarized letter and permission from N's parents.

But this is all assuming N was taken by his grandparents with the intent of crossing the border.

Children travelling by land can use I.D such as birth certificates. Children travelling by air need passports.

 

[HulaMum]

I can't get KL's bankruptcy off my mind.

My husband and I have been financially wronged so this hits a nerve (his company stopped paying employees, hid assets, continued to drive the Range Rover while their employees worked for nothing and remortgaged their homes, messy stuff, etc.) Bottom line - it seemed as if there were no consequences for anyone but the "little people." We felt as if our family had been robbed.

Now, the 700k home sold in AK's name only. There's a beautiful truck (hey, this is Calgary and that's a thing here) in the driveway and plans to relax in Mexico for a few months. You know, I can't even kill a spider but if I was owed money by this couple, I'd have fire shooting out of my ears. Maybe the estate sale was the perfect time to "pay a visit and teach someone a lesson."

But then Nathan was there.

 

[wendiesan]

Children under 16 only need a birth cert nit a passport for a land crossing into Canada.

Sure not true for the reverse. My DD and DSL have to have passports to travel in the US with the grandchildren, even when they're travelling by car. They have NEXUS ID for all family members to speed things up at border crossings as well. A long, detailed process which included the authorities having interviews with the entire family. Including the children who were 18 months and three years old at the time.

In my experience, if you're divorced, you have to also bring a notarized letter from the other parent saying that he or she has agreed to taking your child across the border. Similarly if you're the grandparent/s, you need a letter from both parents saying the child is allowed to travel with you and cross the border.

They usually cross at the Peach Arch where the traffic is pretty heavy and wait times can be long.

 

[Andromeda]

I managed to read through everything here on Nathan's and grandparents' thread and something that just "screams" hinky to me is that Calgary is only a few hours from the border, yet the Amber has been kept North of the 49th.

To me it sounds like the grandparents were setting themselves up to be snowbirds (live south for six months and return to Canada to maintain health benefits/pensions, etc.) The house they sold could have simply been bought as an investment property by the lawyer and that is why they were able to lease it back.

What brought me to read WS and subsequently post was watching the press conference with the parents. There was a lot of past-tense reference regarding Nathan. To me that rings resignation.

I feel uncomfortable pointing this out but the mother's behavior is off. She doesn't come across as medicated (my aunt was after the accidental death of my cousin). Her demeanor isn't "dull". Her voice cracks but there are no tears. I hate to type that, but it's what struck me as a-typical. The rest of the family is spilling tears, the dad can barely keep it together. She's a rock and in one image "hiding" behind him with eyes closed. I don't understand her ability to smile in places. She's soothing and encouraging to her husband but she doesn't need consoling. There is being strong but this behavior strikes me as unexpected. She also uses the word "investigation" at the end of the video. I would expect to hear the word *search* when referring to the goings-on around her parents and Nathan. So is the family being investigated? LE doesn't seem to have branched out past the immediate surroundings. I haven't read anything saying they are working with other provinces/the US. They seem to be staying local.

I think the two bankruptcies are relevant. Were they at the same time/over the same venture? Was there an element of trust (investment) and one came out unscathed (cash out and move on,) and the other royally burned with little option but to stick with it because your family is young and you have no equity in your house? The mom says that "they would bring them down" (to Mexico). Being part of the collateral damage and then no choice but to watch the happy planning and not benefit (monetarily) from it? No cash being slid over to 'them' to help them recover? Just a nice trip down south once a year? Could there be resentment? Could that resentment fuel revenge? Was there a fight?

Interesting that the long weekend is chosen for the sale. Many off to cottage country for Canada's big weekend. Lots of strangers coming and going leaving prints and such and lots of mess and commotion. Not many paying attention to the news and such because everyone is away from the TV and radios and celebrating.

The mention of MLM throws red flags up big time. People who turn to that kind of venture are looking for immediate cash flow. Calgary is a boom/bust town, notorious for crazy real estate highs and lows. They may have just "gambled" and cashed out to take the easy route. Buy a cheaper house in another province who is doing well economically, purchase a "cheap" condo with a very affordable lifestyle down south and live 'easy'.

These are some of my thoughts and opinions of what I've read so far.

 

[TigerLilly]

I really do not believe this theory at all but -

What if the grandparents were aware of some impending consequences of bad business management (huge debts to be repaid? liability on some issue? misrepresentation/fraud? misuse of funds? etc) and decided that they needed to disappear, even if just for a while? So - they put into motion the selling of the house, divesting themselves of all their possessions through the estate sale, etc to pull together some cash - and were vague with friends/family about their future plans (hence the uncertainty of family about how long they planned to be in Mexico, and the different info coming from neighbours about moving north/south). If they really wanted to disappear, could they have purchased fake passports for themselves - and maybe Nathan, too? - and been across the border in a recently purchased vehicle (bought with cash and registered in their new, false, names and stored in a nearby location easily walked to on Sunday night) before they were even noticed missing? And the house ransacked to make it look like they were kidnapped to throw off LE as well as family.

Family members have implied that Nathan was 'special' to both grandma and grandpa - so maybe they couldn't bear to leave him behind as they ran toward some new life to escape something that only they knew was about to happen in their 'real' life?

All just wild speculation.

The solidarity shown by so many members of this family showing up at the news conference yesterday suggests to me that this is not something that would happen in this family. But - nothing else in this case seems to make sense, either.

I have been speculating along these lines. Are they sure there wasnt a car stashed or provided by someone else (twin)? If there was a domestic dispute that ended in a death or injury....would someone help one of them to disappear with Nathan? Have the mexico condos been checked? Are they identical twins? Was it really the twin who checked in them? Why was he so alarmed when they didnt answer the phone? Do they have cell phones? Are their wallets/purse, meds missing? Did anyone see the daughter leave alone that night? Si much missing info!

 

[kdgdid]

I can't get KL's bankruptcy off my mind.

My husband and I have been financially wronged so this hits a nerve (his company stopped paying employees, hid assets, continued to drive the Range Rover while their employees worked for nothing and remortgaged their homes, messy stuff, etc.) Bottom line - it seemed as if there were no consequences for anyone but the "little people." We felt as if our family had been robbed.

Now, the 700k home sold in AK's name only. There's a beautiful truck (hey, this is Calgary and that's a thing here) in the driveway and plans to relax in Mexico for a few months. You know, I can't even kill a spider but if I was owed money by this couple, I'd have fire shooting out of my ears. Maybe the estate sale was the perfect time to "pay a visit and teach someone a lesson."

But then Nathan was there.

I must of missed something and I apologize. How do we know KL went bankrupt 2 years ago ?

 

[JLSChook]

I must of missed something and I apologize. How do we know KL went bankrupt 2 years ago ?

I think it was said during the family press conference yesterday. An answer to a reporter's question?

 

[Andromeda]

Something I forgot to add, the mom was the last "known" to see her parents and the first on the scene. It's assumed that whatever happened, happened between 10 and 10. It could be that what happened, happened earlier as it was only KO and Nathan at the grandparents' house.

Someone up thread mentioned that there was video surveillance (security). Tapes would show who came/went, wouldn't it? Unless security was turned off? Someone in the know? Maybe this is why the police haven't branched out?

 

[wendiesan]

Re bankruptcy. Is it possible that AL and KL were holding the estate sale in order to meet the demands of the trustees? IIRC, those bankruptcies were a few years ago. It's possible that they had met the other requirements and were finishing the process. Or, if the process was complete, they may have held the sale to pay off debts which were not covered by the bankruptcy, or the trustees' fee.

Bankruptcies take from 9 - 21 months on average to be completed.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/8-myths-of-bankruptcy-1.1014375

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Depends hugely on the crossing and employees. You technically need a passport for every individual crossing, and can be denied the ability to transport a child without express parental permission (we bring a notarized letter when travelling with my much younger sister). However, the enforcement of these guidelines is very spotty in my experience. It has ranged from very rigid to knowing individuals who cross regularly without a passport. Smaller more rural crossings often seen more laid back. I think this is partially due to the fact that passport requirements for US/Canada land crossings is a relatively new phenomenon, and citizens and workers alike are not all thrilled about the change. I can't speculate about this particular crossing, as my times travelling to the states have been via Ontario and New Brunswick, but wanted to share based on my experience.

Perhaps someone has crossed there specifically

Edited to add: I have also never had my vehicle peeked into/searched. An elderly couple may be less likely to raise suspicions and could plausibly hide a child for the duration of a crossing. I am not up to date on this case or thread, despite tons of local media attention, so I am not sure of the specs of their vehicle or wheher we know if the grandparents had access to their own passports.

From what I know, the borders take a photo of each license plate as it crosses, but the problem is what vehicle would they be in? And how can it be tied back to this missing trio?

 

[Sillybilly]

I must of missed something and I apologize. How do we know KL went bankrupt 2 years ago ?

2 yrs might be open to interpretation ... it was "in the past couple years":

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - AMBER ALERT: Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Not true.
They need passports. My boss and his kids are traveling to the States this summer, and they need passports. Both kids are under 16.

If the L's and N are not intending to leave Canada, then none of them will need passports. They'll just need birth certificates. I also find it difficult for them to leave the country with N. He is not a biological child. He's a grandchild and he doesn't share the same last name as the L's. In order for the L's (or anyone) to take N across the border, they would need a notarized letter and permission from N's parents.

But this is all assuming N was taken by his grandparents with the intent of crossing the border.

BBM - for air travel yes, passports are required to enter the US. However for land crossings, you do not require a passport.

 

[loveisthemovement]

Great questions.

This kept me awake last night.

When JO arrived at her parent's home, were the doors unlocked?

If the doors were locked, did JO have a key to their home?

Did JO enter the home and see the (paraphrasing) upheaval and everyone gone and then call 911?

Did JO check with neighbours first to see if they had seen her parents and N out walking that morning before making the call to 911?

Here's what nags at me ... if the doors were closed or locked and there was (paraphrasing) an apparent struggle to remove people against their will, why would the perp(s) care about closing doors??

Also wondering about passports, wallets, purse, cell phones, medications (if any), laptops, etc., and if JO was allowed to check for these items to see if anything of this nature was missing in the home.

 

[Bravo]

From what I know, the borders take a photo of each license plate as it crosses, but the problem is what vehicle would they be in? And how can it be tied back to this missing trio?

Yes photo's are taken. Unless one was rented or purchased on the sly. However I don't believe this is the case. LE would be able to trace that info. At this point the best I can come up with is the trio were taken as they could identify whomever was in that house. If so that leaves me with a sick feeling. IMO.

 

[airplanelamp]

Not true.
They need passports. My boss and his kids are traveling to the States this summer, and they need passports. Both kids are under 16.

If the L's and N are not intending to leave Canada, then none of them will need passports. They'll just need birth certificates. I also find it difficult for them to leave the country with N. He is not a biological child. He's a grandchild and he doesn't share the same last name as the L's. In order for the L's (or anyone) to take N across the border, they would need a notarized letter and permission from N's parents.

But this is all assuming N was taken by his grandparents with the intent of crossing the border.

I live on the Canada USA border. I travel to the US on a daily basis with my kids. Adults are required to produce a valid passport, OR Nexxus card, OR a special kind of DL. Children are only required to produce a birth certificate.

Re: Notarized letter - the US border MAY or MAY NOT ask for such a thing. My children do not share my last name and I have been asked for it twice in 7 years.


ETA-this is assuming travel by car. To travel by air children need a passport.

 

[mayelf]

Just to throw it out there, there seems to be some speculation about the grandparents having something to do with this --- well from my understanding the boy was never planned to stay the night. I don't really see how they could be involved unless it was a heat of the moment type of a thing. But why not take their own vehicle? Unless something happened at 9:00 am they would have had plenty of time to drive someplace and hide out. It doesn't make any sense why these people would be missing at all. So bizarre!

 

[Kip]

This case is really perplexing - I can talk myself out of any scenario I come up with.

If the motive was revenge, I don't understand why the people were taken. Wouldn't someone just go in and kill everyone and leave? Nathan would have been a surprise, but I think either he too would have been killed or left there alive. That way, the only evidence is the bullets (assuming a shooting) and you can get in and out of there quickly. Taking the people, whether alive or dead, means there's a larger period of time when neighbors/passersby could see you getting the people/bodies out of the house, and the perps have the very real possibility of leaving dna evidence in their vehicle.

Most of those issues could be true for a planned robbery as well.

It's possible, though, that a planned robbery didn't go as planned. Maybe, even though the robber was masked, the grandparents recognized him, and he panicked.

If that is blood outside, I'm wondering if the grandfather tried to take on the perp(s) outside because he knew getting into the car might seal their fate.

 

[Peace777]

Yes photo's are taken. Unless one was rented or purchased on the sly. However I don't believe this is the case. LE would be able to trace that info. At this point the best I can come up with is the trio were taken as they could identify whomever was in that house. If so that leaves me with a sick feeling. IMO.

Hmmm I for some reason don't think they crossed the border. I just hope they are alive and well somewhere This is a very mysterious case tho JMO Hope they are found soon