rbbm.
Easy to see why the scene at least initially could look like a domestic violence scenario, considering that HS was bloody but BS (afawk) was not bloodied. imo.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
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Easy to see why the scene at least initially could look like a domestic violence scenario, considering that HS was bloody but BS (afawk) was not bloodied. imo.
ABro
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That's some House of Cards scenario. Other people have made a lot of good points as to why it's improbable so I won't repeat them.
Can we at least agree the family had good reason to be upset if they were getting news from the media and not the police in the immediate aftermath of the deaths? Personally, I believe that's why John Tory approached the police, to ask Mark Saunders to stop the leaking not to warn police off murder suicide. Tory has never done anything to suggest he's corrupt so I seriously doubt he would start here. And there's no evidence of any other politician contacting the police.
Yes, money helps, but not enough that the Shermans didn't pay for their own team, which is now at odds with the police. This is not a conspiracy of people working together to shut down a murder suicide scenario by a long shot.
Also, labeling this a double murder and then failing to solve the most high profile murder they've had in years is hardly a good look for TPS. I'm sure they don't enjoy being denounced by Greenspan and seeing cover stories in Bloomberg Business Week suggesting they are incompetent.
As for the DNA, it depends based on the situation. In the Bosma case, they didn't get Noudga's discard DNA until months after the murder. So no, going around and collecting everyone's DNA is not necessarily one of the first things they do.
I'm also curious about the phone evidence. If this was a spur of the moment thing, you wouldn't expect suspects to turn off their phones. You would also expect to see vehicle evidence.
There is a lot we don't know, and the evidence often turns out to be very surprising.
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Now that is an interesting point.
i)if suicide/suicide, then why leave yourselves all grotesque like that, and why not choose a nice prescription drug and hold hands on the bed and just go to sleep - who would want to leave themselves like that for their family and/or friends to find? And then there's the Honey's face being messed up, which doesn't fit the double suicide theory. So.... to me, we can rule out double suicide.
ii)if M/S, but it was a freak-out moment and B didn't want anyone to know, then why NOT stage it as a murder, by ransacking everything, breaking a lock, etc. Maybe even bash his own face against the tile somewhere and get himself bloodied up a bit, put markings on their wrists and ankles, and then do the hangings? Maybe, at same time, get revenge on the cousins who've been giving him grief for the past 10 years since perhaps they might be first suspected. If B first assaulted H before killing her, making it look like a double suicide was off the table; murder/suicide was not the legacy he wanted to leave for himself. Due to Honey's injuries, his options were limited. Making it appear to be murder would have made perfect sense.
iii)if murder, murder, then why don't the murderers just shoot, rob, and go? But seems it wasn't enough to just kill them, it was personal, and staged to be grotesque to the person finding the bodies and in the minds of the couple's loved ones (indefinitely - that would be a tough visual to shake). Sensational. In the news for everyone to read about. Obviously the murderers wanted it to appear to be something different than just simply murder. The only other possibility - murder/suicide, would further wreak vengeance on Barry in particular, even in death. They couldn't make it look like a double suicide since they messed a bit with Honey. Why? Being used to getting her way and calling the shots, she got bold and mouthy with them ahead of them killing her, perhaps thought her husband would save the day? Why? Perhaps Honey was familiar with the perp(s) and didn't really believe they meant business? Otherwise, why provoke her intruders? Why wouldn't she be paralyzed with terror? Instead of just ending their lives, they created a macabre sight, removed all evidence of themselves, and tried to make it look like M/S.
so.... to me, we can rule out double suicide -
Sorry, my WS and/or my hundred bucks a month internet is laggy lately and my cursor finds itself jumped all over the place.. the above had the last sentence duplicated. But it seems like it was not a clear cut 'M/S' scene/evidence, and it just doesn't make sense that if it *was* M/S, but yet B didn't want that on his reputation, he, being of brilliant mind, couldn't have done a lot more to try to make it NOT appear to be that.
If it was difficult to clue in to the evidence pointing to murder, that suggests that if it was murder, the perps did not want it to be seen as murder, and instead tried for the illusion of M/S. This case reeks of 'personal' and UNprofessional however, so it seems difficult to imagine it was a 'professional hit'. A 'paid hit' possibly, but surely not a pro hit.
All of the timing bits are so interesting too. Some 20 years in the house (or 30??), and it's the first time the home is listed for sale - with photos AND a floorplan accessible online to anyone in the world. Grudges can be 'forever things' (Douglas Garland in the Liknes/O'Brien case). The real estate listing naming the contractors who'd had a part in the home, and calling it a masterpiece, yet those contractors may have been left with a nasty taste in their mouths after being sued. That lawsuit bankrupted one of the parties, and may have potentially ruined lives. Then to see it called a masterpiece and listed for so much money.... not hard to imagine there may have been very hard feelings somewhere, even in December 2017.
Photo is from harvey kalles facebook or twitter, I forget which... but it is still there.. around Nov 27th. (I am still confused why the listing appears to be under one realtor/broker, while the sign is under another? - anyone know??)
If it was difficult to clue in to the evidence pointing to murder, that suggests that if it was murder, the perps did not want it to be seen as murder, and instead tried for the illusion of M/S. This case reeks of 'personal' and UNprofessional however, so it seems difficult to imagine it was a 'professional hit'. A 'paid hit' possibly, but surely not a pro hit.
All of the timing bits are so interesting too. Some 20 years in the house (or 30??), and it's the first time the home is listed for sale - with photos AND a floorplan accessible online to anyone in the world. Grudges can be 'forever things' (Douglas Garland in the Liknes/O'Brien case). The real estate listing naming the contractors who'd had a part in the home, and calling it a masterpiece, yet those contractors may have been left with a nasty taste in their mouths after being sued. That lawsuit bankrupted one of the parties, and may have potentially ruined lives. Then to see it called a masterpiece and listed for so much money.... not hard to imagine there may have been very hard feelings somewhere, even in December 2017.
Photo is from harvey kalles facebook or twitter, I forget which... but it is still there.. around Nov 27th. (I am still confused why the listing appears to be under one realtor/broker, while the sign is under another? - anyone know??)
AUDIO
Sherman Family Investigators Finally Hand Over Evidence Collected To Toronto Police - ON Point with Alex Pierson - Omny.fm
Nov 2 2018
"Joining Alex Pierson is David Perry, CEO Investigative Solutions Network Inc, to talk about the ongoing investigation into the murders of Honey and Barry Sherman. The Sherman family’s’ private investigation team handed over evidence to the Toronto Police this week. This comes several weeks after the Police told the team they would seek a judicial warrant if the evidence was not handed over."
Sherman Family Investigators Finally Hand Over Evidence Collected To Toronto Police - ON Point with Alex Pierson - Omny.fm
Nov 2 2018
"Joining Alex Pierson is David Perry, CEO Investigative Solutions Network Inc, to talk about the ongoing investigation into the murders of Honey and Barry Sherman. The Sherman family’s’ private investigation team handed over evidence to the Toronto Police this week. This comes several weeks after the Police told the team they would seek a judicial warrant if the evidence was not handed over."
ABro
Verified Expert
One of the things that still suggests murder suicide is that Barry was Not seriously injured as far as we know.
While Greenspan and his team have never said this, they have said they believe the crime was carried out by multiple people.
I think they might have drawn that inference from Barry’s lack of serious injuries and the fact that Honey did not show signs of being dragged, but again, without the evidence, I’m only guessing.
Also, if Barry had no injuries at all that could also suggest he didn’t kill Honey, which would weigh against initial murder suicide theories.
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Does anyone know if floorplans/archtechtural drawings/blueprints would have been easily available at anytime from the City of Toronto planning or building department?
tarabull
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Jumping off your post --- are we ALL aware there was an
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The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire
The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire
Nov 3 2018 Matthew Campbell reports.
"Police found no evidence of a break-in, and the manner in which the Shermans were killed was personal, even intimate. The official cause of death for both was “ligature neck compression,” meaning strangulation by a cord or belt — painful, terrifying, and indicating a passionate desire to see them suffer.
Then again, the tidiness of the scene suggested the work of professionals. With little concrete information available, friends and colleagues have projected a tangle of theories into the void, speculating variously about the culpability of rival pharmaceutical firms, disgruntled ex-employees, and Russian-Israeli gangsters.
From the first reports, I took a close interest in the deaths. I grew up in Toronto, a proud, if irreligious member of the city’s Jewish community.
The Shermans and their influence were ever-present there; no museum, community centre, or campus seemed to lack a space named after them or Apotex. Their son, Jonathon, and I attended the same high school, about a year apart, and our parents were well-acquainted.
My father, also named Barry, served a term as a Liberal member of parliament in the 1990s, and Apotex donated to his campaign.
Later, my parents interacted with the Shermans on the charity and social circuits.
Initially, I was reluctant to write about their deaths, which seemed too close to home. Yet, as the weeks wore on without answers, the story became impossible to ignore, and I booked a ticket to Toronto.
I’d assumed that in writing about Barry Sherman’s life, I would be reporting on a world I knew. And while, yes, he was a consummate member of Canada’s political and business elite, comfortably atop a society that deserves most, if not quite all, of its international reputation for orderly predictability, he was also a financial gateway from the staid routine of boardrooms and balls to someplace less savoury. The borders between those worlds could be surprisingly fluid for Sherman. Sometimes, they didn’t exist at all."
The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire
Nov 3 2018 Matthew Campbell reports.
"Police found no evidence of a break-in, and the manner in which the Shermans were killed was personal, even intimate. The official cause of death for both was “ligature neck compression,” meaning strangulation by a cord or belt — painful, terrifying, and indicating a passionate desire to see them suffer.
Then again, the tidiness of the scene suggested the work of professionals. With little concrete information available, friends and colleagues have projected a tangle of theories into the void, speculating variously about the culpability of rival pharmaceutical firms, disgruntled ex-employees, and Russian-Israeli gangsters.
From the first reports, I took a close interest in the deaths. I grew up in Toronto, a proud, if irreligious member of the city’s Jewish community.
The Shermans and their influence were ever-present there; no museum, community centre, or campus seemed to lack a space named after them or Apotex. Their son, Jonathon, and I attended the same high school, about a year apart, and our parents were well-acquainted.
My father, also named Barry, served a term as a Liberal member of parliament in the 1990s, and Apotex donated to his campaign.
Later, my parents interacted with the Shermans on the charity and social circuits.
Initially, I was reluctant to write about their deaths, which seemed too close to home. Yet, as the weeks wore on without answers, the story became impossible to ignore, and I booked a ticket to Toronto.
I’d assumed that in writing about Barry Sherman’s life, I would be reporting on a world I knew. And while, yes, he was a consummate member of Canada’s political and business elite, comfortably atop a society that deserves most, if not quite all, of its international reputation for orderly predictability, he was also a financial gateway from the staid routine of boardrooms and balls to someplace less savoury. The borders between those worlds could be surprisingly fluid for Sherman. Sometimes, they didn’t exist at all."
D
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Yes.
The comment about knowing for a fact that the suspects are watching the press conference is very interesting and promising!
How do they know that unless the perp/s are under surveillance, could an arrest possibly be around the corner?
speculation, imo
I am confused about why it would be 'impossible' to know when the couple died. I mean, I know it would be impossible to know precisely, but surely they could more precisely pinpoint a much narrower range? Their bodies were found a *maximum* of 43 hours after they were *last seen alive* (say 5pm on Wed Dec 13th to 11am on Fri Dec 15th). It isn't like they found bodies decomposed 6 months later. There are known bodily processes that give indications (stages of rigor mortis and decomposition). So why would it be impossible? Or is it that they're not saying, but then why not say, 'police aren't saying...', as opposed to 'it's impossible to know'?
jilly
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Thank you.
If the perp(s) left the home, presumably on foot, in the middle of the night on Wed Dec 13th, how well would neighboring cameras catch such activity? The moon was just a few days away from a 'new moon', and at approx 15% illumination (as opposed to close to 100% during a full moon). Lunar Calendar Month December 2017 (Canada)
I think he was just saying generically that the killers would be watching for news related to the crime. I know he used the word “suspects” instead of perpetrators, which could be inferred to mean that they do in fact have suspects. But I frankly doubt the chief would divulge the existence of suspects. I think he generally meant perpetrators, but unfortunately called them suspects. IMO
Do you really need to fake a forced entry? Could not an intruder have simply knocked on the door and forced their way inside once opened? If Murder/Suicide, I have been wondering if Barry was trying to stage it as a double murder or a double suicide? Or, there is the possibility that he may have had a change of thought and changed the staging at some point? This might explain the supposed evidence of wrist bindings that had been removed. Perhaps Barry bound Honey's wrists, then one of his own, but found it impossible to tie his own wrists together effectively, so he abandoned the idea and opted for jackets instead?
They certainly would. However we have no idea if there are even any cameras in the immediate vicinity of the Sherman home.
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