Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[Woodland]

Most may not be interested in this one, but it is discrepant. Can it be sorted as to which is correct?

From thread #2, page 8, post #176 by KJ

Tweedy told me you were nuts.

From thread #2, page 12, post #299 by KJ

Tweedy had been off the case for 8 years, but she claims he told her face to face she was nuts....

Which one was it?

 

[orora]

Is it possible to resolve this discrepancy?

Which are and which aren't resolvable is dependant upon many things. Perhaps it's more beneficial to ask, what benefit is there to each? Example, exact type and position of wound within inches of each other is all part a facial injury derived from a blow or blows. Good enough for me. If there is more to be gained, I would accept the need to differentiate and even participate. If this is the situation, I just ask what it is that is being sought and for what gain?

As far the crazy thing, I have no personal information and neither does anyone else to be able to offer anything. Just you two involved in that. Sorry!

The Horwoods sighting- as said there may be a benefit in several ways by resolving that discrepancy and according all parties, it is resolvable.

The Horwood report was an eye witness account. Those eye witnesses would have given a statement. If the account of that sighting in the Kaufman inquiry is false and the truth so blatently and deliberately obstructed right down to left instead of right turn, name of street, type of car etc.. , we need know who was responsible. That may provide additional leads in itself. If it needs be corrected in the official reports and archives, that provides a means and opportunity to address an issue otherwise legally unapproachable now. If DNA is an eventual consideration in regard any suspect, the coroberating evidence needs be aligned to demonstrable truth. etc etc..

From Ken-

As i have addressed this SO MANY TIMES BEFORE The car was seen on the east side of leslie on the side of the road facing north... The witnessed gave statements... the next day... They were called down to the second trial but were not called as witnesses. Theyre statements were never disclosed to the defence... The defence team interviewed them all. Do NOT STATE AND LIE THAT THERE IS NO PRINTED REPORTS!!!!!! All you have to do is order the transcipts of the disclosure hearing b4 the second trial... THATS WHY THERE WAS A FREAKIN DISCLOSURE HEARING... Durham police hid any statements that shed a doubt on morins guilt..... The Horwoods stated they saw what they did At RAVENSHOE AND LESLIE.... THE CBC STATED THIS IN ODD MAN OUT!!!!!! They saw a man struggling with a child as the car turned right on RAVENSHOE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I answered the questions. I have actual PROOF to back it up.....
It doesn't come from a sensationalistic book. It comes from boring court transcripts. I have even been questioned about those. They take up about 40 legal boxes. I paid $1700 in 1998 for them. The disclosure hearing is where everything is.... I paid for them. Even if I invited everyone here to view them, someone would dispute

I tried to get the ODD MAN OUT segment but to no avail. I'll pay for the relevant transcript pages if anyone can send me a link to do so, or I will personally pay you Ken to copy and post them here.

 

[orora]

That is a very good question/statement. W.

The point being - what's with all the misleading information? It's continuous - who is being served?

I don't think anyone here (posters) are deliberately trying to mislead anyone. Some things like what dedpanman recently said and apologized for, re: where he found the information is no big deal really. imo ..Its good to keep things straight but not at the expense of nitpicking something somewhat irrelevant to death and sidetracking discussion just to show it as mistaken or misleading. Not a biggie imo, help by pointing it out, allowing the correction and move on..

from dedpanman

I made an error when I said that the fracture under the eye came from the Toronto Star. It came from the Kitchener Waterloo paper from the TORSTAR database. Torstar's major holding is the Toronto Star. I goofed when I made my reference.

Imo, until that is resolved, it will never be possible to work as a team. What is the goal here? I find it hard to recognize anymore.

Perhaps a less antagonistic approach and more a discussion like that of late. People have derived opinions after so long and its not easy to change what we believe. The underpinnings any opinion can be discussed and facts sought. Example the DNA issue that raged for years; one newly discovered news report later we have all accepted it to a degree it should no longer interfer or sidetrack a discussion again. Same with most anything else here once worked through.

If there are important uncorrected mistakes not previously addressed that have a bearing on the opinions and outcome of this discussion by all means point it out for correction. Differences of opinion as to meaning of the same facts are a different category. We are all entitled one.

Spelling, grammar, minor mistakes in dates, times, etc that have no bearing other than to nitpick... well your call where to draw the line. As far as anyone here deliberately providing misleading information, I don't see it. Mistakes happen, there are many conflicting news reports, this thread as well the last are volumous and hard to keep every word said in exact pristine context without a great deal of searching at times.

Its great having you here W., you have a grasp beyond what most do and you do provide a valuable asset. A team is comprised of many parts which not everyone can do or are interchangeable in all positions and all aspects. Some patience and tolerance goes a long way with helping others catch up to the same degree.

My previous post was made in regard an offer to pay for information I have not been able to find or obtain elsewhere. Sorry, you provided the intro to that W. I took the opportunity to ask Ken to sell me a copy. While waiting, I'll let you address whoever you directed your last comments at W.

I don't think anyone's goals here are any different any one else's here. Some still hold out hope for justice.. for some that prospect grows distant and its problems in the system that need be addressed. Either way, anything that makes it tougher for a child killer to get away with this murder or any other is a worthwhile persuit. imo

 

[Woodland]

Orora - your post has misconstrued all that I have said - and therein lies part of the problem.

Do you have any thoughts on Christine? This thread was meant to be about her.

 

[orora]

Perhaps you need explain yourself better W or all the answers will appear misconstrued? Its a very broad brush you paint with.

The point being - what's with all the misleading information? It's continuous - who is being served?

Ken has been asked to provide the reports on the Horwoods. He may have valid explanations for the discrepancy and can possibly explain how his opinion was derived from the reports we haven't seen, have patience.. The crazy part about who was called nuts by Tweety and when is between you and Ken..
goodluck with that..

 

[Woodland]

There is a dilemma on the extent of CJ's facial injury. We have KJ advising that only the orbital and cheekbone were fractured, but extensive reporting that the nasal bone was fractured as well can be found. KJ further suggests the injury was sustained while the killer was driving away with her.

From this thread, page 2, post #47, by KJ - the context is struggling in the car.

Don't forget that her face had been smashed, orbital bone fracture. So if she was struggling and he was pushing her down, inevitably and punch would subdue her. Causing that injury.

Page 3, #56, by KJ

Then by going the wrong way, she started fussing and he tried pushing her down. and was seen. Then out of frustration he punched her causing the facial injuries. If it was a stranger, why would she be sitting in the front seat with the recorder?

Page 12, #298, by KJ - the first poster did not use the word crushed.

. her face was not crushed as you claim, her orbital bone and cheekbone were fractured. As I have stated before, her sternum was cracked by a knife thrust. The facial injuries were consistant with one punch.


#299, by KJ

DPM, found a fact to end the argument on how she was found... Just as I told you all

The fact was the 1992 article from the Kitcherner-Waterloo Record, highlighting the fracture under the right eye was missed during the first autopsy. A suggestion is made by the poster this may show the killer was left-handed.

If Christine was sitting in the front passenger seat of a car when this injury occurred, her left eye is closest to the driver. The driver's right hand is closest to the passenger.

I can't help but think the injury occurred outside of a vehicle.

 

[Woodland]

In regards to the property where Christine was found, KJessop has said (in another forum):

“... up until about 1990 there was no gate. Being the yard manager at the co-op he may have been or know people out there. She was found just a tractor path. The route there, I always disputed the police theory that she was taken by the Ravenshoe road. Thee Herald road went straight in Durham and was one consession south of the one she was found on... If it was the Ravenshoe it had to be someone who knew very well as it it very indirect. But someone delivering seed and such would know where she was found.”

KJ - previously you disputed the route as Ravenshoe Road while maintaining it was JP who abducted Christine. That's at odds with insisting the Horwood's saw C and JP at Leslie Street and Ravenshoe Road.

Which do you find most viable now?

 

[Woodland]

KJ - you have expressed/advised a number of issues that are different from what the public can access regarding CJ's abduction and murder. I am highlighting some of them as they go to how this crime could have been committed and therefore by who. Some of those issues are -

Found sitting up (KJ) vs prone on the ground.

Decapitated (KJ) vs attempt at decapitation.

L Chipman was a bully not a friend to CJ (KJ) vs LC was to meet CJ at the park the day she disappeared, and waited for her.

Horwood sighting was at the corner of Leslie St and Ravenshoe Rd (KJ) vs the H sighting 6 kms south at Leslie St and Queensville SR vs KJ disputed Ravenshoe Rd was ever used to take CJ to Sunderland.

Reported to YRP a blue car was seen in the Jessop driveway on 3 Oct 1984 by the high school bus driver and 2 teenage girls about 4:00 pm (KJ) vs KW initially reporting a blue car parked on the east shoulder of Leslie St across from the Jessop home and recanting this sighting vs KJ changing the location of the blue car from the driveway to the east shoulder of Leslie St.

Proven by the defense CJ was at Sunderland site since 3 Oct 1984 (KJ) vs defense witness she may have only been there 2 - 3 weeks.

CJ was taken deep into a wooded area (KJ) vs CJ was recovered in a grassy area in front of a copse of cedars.

There are other differences but found the above to be related to the crime. You have also expressed your desire to put the truth in the public domain with phrases such as -

'My statement is fact, what I say is the truth, have the transcripts etc to back it up, I have not stated anything that can't be backed up, I prefer to look over my copies of both trial transcipts' found in the following posts -

Thread #1, posts 1020, 1090, 1099 1104.
Thread #2, posts 45, 176, 230, 260.

Yet you choose not to help the readers with these claims with phrases such as -

'I do not post page & paragraph, phone them to get the pics, all you have to do is order the transcripts, even if I scanned them and posted I would be questioned on the validity, to verify that fact read the transcript, I tell you where to look, what documents to get, I got them' found in the following posts -

Thread #1, posts 1099, 1104.
Thread #2, posts 45, 75, 228, 230, 260, 298, 299, 300, 301.

Imo, it's sad for Christine that you recently had to advise the readers in post #260 that -

'I supposedly have an agenda and it has changed and I am losing sympathy. I got accused of that of my facebook page.'

 

[orora]

W. It sometimes takes awhile for me at least to figure out where you are going with some of the points you make and why the order you pose them. I sometimes end up having to read between the lines. In one of your above posts, you added one more sentence to a series of points than you normally do. Excellent! That one extra sentence makes the difference having to debate an entire plethora of conflicting information and evidence with no goal in sight and changes how we view the facts you point out. I understand why you keep bringing that up now. It may seem a minor difference but I hope you will carry on adding more explanation like you did with this. Without, it just seems a constant rehashing of gory detail which is antagonizing to KJ.

from post 327..

I can't help but think the injury occurred outside of a vehicle

However, I also think KJ has been bombarded enough for now with all this W. Any more and he may never come back to answer anything. Many of the apparent dicrepancies may just be a matter of interpretation. Give him a chance.. ?

 

[Tadpole12]

KJ - you have expressed/advised a number of issues that are different from what the public can access regarding CJ's abduction and murder. I am highlighting some of them as they go to how this crime could have been committed and therefore by who. Some of those issues are -

Found sitting up (KJ) vs prone on the ground.

Decapitated (KJ) vs attempt at decapitation.

L Chipman was a bully not a friend to CJ (KJ) vs LC was to meet CJ at the park the day she disappeared, and waited for her.

Horwood sighting was at the corner of Leslie St and Ravenshoe Rd (KJ) vs the H sighting 6 kms south at Leslie St and Queensville SR vs KJ disputed Ravenshoe Rd was ever used to take CJ to Sunderland.

Reported to YRP a blue car was seen in the Jessop driveway on 3 Oct 1984 by the high school bus driver and 2 teenage girls about 4:00 pm (KJ) vs KW initially reporting a blue car parked on the east shoulder of Leslie St across from the Jessop home and recanting this sighting vs KJ changing the location of the blue car from the driveway to the east shoulder of Leslie St.

Proven by the defense CJ was at Sunderland site since 3 Oct 1984 (KJ) vs defense witness she may have only been there 2 - 3 weeks.

CJ was taken deep into a wooded area (KJ) vs CJ was recovered in a grassy area in front of a copse of cedars.

There are other differences but found the above to be related to the crime. You have also expressed your desire to put the truth in the public domain with phrases such as -

'My statement is fact, what I say is the truth, have the transcripts etc to back it up, I have not stated anything that can't be backed up, I prefer to look over my copies of both trial transcipts' found in the following posts -

Thread #1, posts 1020, 1090, 1099 1104.
Thread #2, posts 45, 176, 230, 260.

Yet you choose not to help the readers with these claims with phrases such as -

'I do not post page & paragraph, phone them to get the pics, all you have to do is order the transcripts, even if I scanned them and posted I would be questioned on the validity, to verify that fact read the transcript, I tell you where to look, what documents to get, I got them' found in the following posts -

Thread #1, posts 1099, 1104.
Thread #2, posts 45, 75, 228, 230, 260, 298, 299, 300, 301.

Imo, it's sad for Christine that you recently had to advise the readers in post #260 that -

'I supposedly have an agenda and it has changed and I am losing sympathy. I got accused of that of my facebook page.'

Heyya Woodland,

Horwood sighting was at the corner of Leslie St and Ravenshoe Rd (KJ) vs the H sighting 6 kms south at Leslie St and Queensville SR vs KJ disputed Ravenshoe Rd was ever used to take CJ to Sunderland.

Was this descrepancy not addressed with KJ comments on Thread 2 , page 6. With KJ claiming the details were manufactured?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 #2 UNSOLVED

I explained it. Durham lost any file or evidence that didn't fit Morin. Christ, the ident officer doctored his books. They created evidence, they lost exculpitory evidence... They went after Morin both barrels, why do you think the second trial pretrial lasted 13 months..... They lost the orig. file from york stating they saw it at ravenshoe created a file stating queensville rd. Because it didn't fit there theory. At the inquiry, that evidence was just read in from the durham file. That is why

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 #2 UNSOLVED

They never testified at the inquiry. The Durham account was just read in

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 #2 UNSOLVED

Rhe police theory was that Morin took Ravershoe... So for Durham the horwoods orig account was reasonable doubt. So they "lost" the yrp report. Then with them dead created the queensville sd rd report. The fifth estate brought it out first. How could that report come out at the second trial. So without the horwoods alive to dispute it, they created the second report.

 

[Tadpole12]

KJ - having trouble with the following 2 items where you have expressed opposing views. Which view would you like the readers to have?

'The only true recounting is the KR.' Thread 1, page 44, post #1088
'Read the inquiry findings. You find the truth there.' As above, #1090
'The inquiry was a joke.' Thread 2, page 8, post #176


'She went to the park alot.' Thread 1, page 44, post #1088
'She regularly went to the store for candy.' Thread 2, page 2, post #43
'Christine never left the house.' Thread 2, page 3, post #52

'Christine never left the house.' Thread 2, page 3, post #52

Heyya Woodland, I had assumed the nomenclature was associated with the cabbage patch doll? not in ref to CJ?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 #2 UNSOLVED

Christine NEVER left the house. It was her private friend.

 

[Tadpole12]

Aren't we suppose to be obsessed with Christine here?

Sheesh.

 

[Woodland]

Thank-you for the question Tadpole 12.

The purpose of the original post is, KJ is giving different versions on many points that the general public cannot find anywhere. The general public can find something different if not the opposite.

While KJ may have addressed any or all of the points several times, there is no proof offered to back up any of it.

KJ has the proof, according to KJ, but chooses not to share any of it.

 

[orora]

Some of us still have hope Ken will share a little more with us when he is up to it.

from W-

Orora - you spend a lot of time commenting on posters rather than the post. What the poster must think, what the poster must feel, where the poster must be going, what the poster is going to post next. Never a question.

You are certainly allowed to think what you want, but posting your assumptions on others is suppose to be against TOS. Trust the mod will approve if someone highlights the personal views you give as they look the other way when you do it.

Aren't we suppose to be obsessed with Christine here?

As you have rightly recognized W., KJ has the answers, he has the transcripts, he has the proof. KJ has expressed his dislike and dicontent with having to rehash and recount all the details of his sisters injuries and body condition. You keep bringing it up. Is that just to inflame and antagonize him to make sure he doesn't come back? You know he doesn't appreciate that.

So I asked why you do that and I gave you the benefit of the doubt in one instance. You carry on in a manner irregardless what anyone else thinks is appropriate. I don't believe your recent posts are going to bring Ken back for more. He has the evidence, you don't. That is where the priorities are for most of us at this point imo..

As far as:

you spend a lot of time commenting on posters rather than the post.

You accuse me of not posting about Christine? From as far back as say post 241 I spoke exclusively and entirely about Christine, outlayed an entire scenario as requested, went on for pages with very few replies or comments from anyone. Excluding a few very short responses including some from you W. Seems you did not want to debate intricate detail then. You had the chance, you declined then.. I avoided the more gruesome detail for a reason..

Now you just go on posting about all the gory detail in a manner that is more than likely to upset and chase Ken away before any of our questions are answered.

I have asked questions and have answers pending from what I posted before and I am patiently waiting. I believe that will result in important evidence to proceed on. Am I just supposed to sit back and watch you antagonize, inflame, and chase Ken off before any of that can come to fruition? Dedpanman has a request of his own in the works. Our last chance for answers is with Ken... imo

Its the truth we seek and Ken is vital. So unless you have good reason to carry on in this manner at this time, and there is more to gain by that than to be lost- Please explain it.

If you feel a need to ask a moderator to take a look, by all means do. If you wish to justify why you keep bringing up what Ken has already said upsets him, you should do that. It is required imo. I have explained why I believe we should back off him.

 

[orora]

Excellent compilation Tadpole.. Even though the questions were directed to Ken, Ken is quoted in your answers.. perfect imo.

Lots of things we say here would be extremely hard for a relative or anyone close to any victim to hear. I know we don't mean it to be that way but I'm sure it takes its toll. Ken if you read here again, and as dedpanman once said, we wish to leave a true and accurate record for any researchers coming after us. While we can and while our memories remain we have almost made it as far as we can without you. I know this last portion is hair pulling frustrating and takes kahunas not to walk away, but we are almost there. Hey the DNA issue has gone away...the list is being whittled down. When you are up to it..

 

[Woodland]

From page 4, post #92.

Don't be led like sheep, question everything. even my posts. Don't be led blindly.
The truth will only be found through questions.

 

[Woodland]

Some doubt has been expressed that JP was responsible for this crime.

'and if not him. Someone very close to the fam.'
'JP may not be... But he is very likely... The kid in the cemetery who was violent.'
- KJ Post #80, #260

There was an opportunity present for three weeks leading up to CJ's abduction, all confirmed by KJ in various posts. It is the same opportunity presented here early on.

JJ worked day shifts at a retail store in Richmond Hill, 3 or 4 days per week.
- Post #29, #260, RR

CJ got home everyday at 3:45 - 3:50 pm, before KJ's school bus arrived.
- Post #77

KJ got home everyday at 4:00 - 4:05 pm, 15 minutes after CJ.
- Post #77

BJ away from home for about 3 weeks leading up to 3 October 1984.
- Thread 1, #1020, 1090, Thread 2, #29, RR

By all accounts, there was a 15 minute window of opportunity a few days per week between school bus arrivals on the days JJ was working. It is not stated anywhere that JJ was able to arrive home by 3:45 pm from R/Hill, it is stated that JJ's step-mother had voiced concern in this area - RR.
Not a judgement - it was a safe, small town and JJ and KJ arrived home from a dentist appointment that was scheduled to begin about 3:30 pm.

The FD believed he was on business in California. Because my father told them that.
He even told fellow coaches on my softball team that he may be going to Cali.
- Post #29

The pink coat was found on a much higher hook than she could reach, hinting at someone she knew and trusted.
And the jacket says it was someone she trusted.
- Post #43, #50

She was duped by someone who knew the sit.
- Post #52

People knew BJ was not at home. That's all someone needed to know to be able to watch and choose the right moment - from the cemetery, imo.

The public can find a record that the store owner changed his story one week after the abduction.

Mangano recently dismissed the Horwood sighting at Leslie and Queensville S/R. He did not say it took place 6 kms north.

TPS did not say recently, when they had the chance, that CJ went to the store, but they keep it in their on-line poster.

$50,000.00 was still a lot of money in 1998.

 

[orora]

W. After a long series of nothing but descriptions of the facial injuries, you post-

If Christine was sitting in the front passenger seat of a car when this injury occurred, her left eye is closest to the driver. The driver's right hand is closest to the passenger.

I can't help but think the injury occurred outside of a vehicle

Then you post-

People knew BJ was not at home. That's all someone needed to know to be able to watch and choose the right moment - from the cemetery, imo.

The public can find a record that the store owner changed his story one week after the abduction.

So just trying to put two and two together with what you say, are you suggesting that the facial injuries occured at home outside of a vehicle during an attack and that Christine was forceably abducted from home? Is this why you post the descriptions of the injuries in support of that position?

 

[Woodland]

Find this a good reminder of what we have dealt with here from time to time. It's from thread 1, page 6, post #142.

orora

And of course the descrepancies don't help.


It's been difficult from time to time, to wade through what is real and what has been introduced as real.

Adding incorrect information does not help and an item to be vigilant of are replies that don't reflect the original post. Just because a poster attributes a statement or a thought to another, does not mean it was ever said.

Deleting information that existed at a certain point in time should be avoided at all costs.

Thank-you to the original poster.

 

[Woodland]

Noticed this once before and dismissed it, but it crept back into view again. Hopefully someone with better search skills than myself can help.

We have information from the KR (page 656) that a feedmill existed in Queensville in 1984 and was located on Queensville SR west of Leslie Street.

The Horwoods
On October 6 1984 at 1:00am an officer of the York Police force received a telephone call from a woman stating that she and her husband had observed a suspicious occurrence. At approximately 4:00pm on October 3 Ms. Horwood and her husband saw a male person in a very dirty dark green or blue Buick near the Queensville feed mill. While waiting at an intersection, the Horwoods observed this Buick which was stopped at the intersection facing them. It had been traveling eastbound on the Queensville Sideroad and was waiting for traffic to clear so that it could proceed northbound on Leslie Street. Both Mr and Ms Horwood noticed that the male driver appeared to be holding a small child in a forceful manner in the front seat area. They were unable to obtain a licence plate number. A supplementary report was filed by the officer who took this information.

It's not the sighting that I'm pointing out, just the location of what was known as the feedmill. If travelling east on Q'ville SR to proceed north on Leslie, one would have to be west of Leslie St at that moment.

We also have information that a Coop existed at that time as well. From thread 1, page 41, post #1020.

He was a friend of my dads who worked at the co-op.
He could see our house from the co-op.

From thread 2, page 2, Post #47

He worked in the mill not in the store, so always dirty from seed and such.

The ability to see from the coop to the Jessop home led to this map on page 1 of this thread, post #17. This location is Queensville SR east of Leslie St.

KJessop: "He could see our house from the co-op."

Surely Queensville had a coop and a feedmill in 1984, both on Queensville SR with the feedmill on the west side of Leslie St and the coop on the east side of Leslie St, about 1 km or less apart.
Both producing animal feed? 'He worked in the mill.'

Having trouble finding confirmation when the coop or 'Queensville Farm Supply Ltd' at 1631 Queensville SR opened. A current google map does not have the feedmill on the west side of Leslie - it was torn down at some point?