Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[orora]

W, you quote me in regard this as if it were of similar relevance?

Find this a good reminder of what we have dealt with here from time to time. It's from thread 1, page 6, post #142.

orora

And of course the descrepancies don't help

.

Neither does the manner in which the descrepancies are being addressed here and now help either imo. W. we all know you have had a long standing dispute with KJ. We all know KJ has expressed an extreme dislike to having to review and rethink images of his sisters remains. He has made that quite clear in his recent posts.

W, you have gone on from that to post so many discrepancies and so many questions without answer already, what do you expect to accomplish by asking more? All the questions get obllterated in the shuffle and lost to each other in the fray as well everyone elses questions. Thats why dedpanman once compiled all our questions for KJ to answer. Are your questions just posed rhetorically or do you really expect some answers? Your timing and procedure does not entice answers imo, more the opposite. The more you antagonize Ken, however you try to justify it, the chances for the rest of us having our questions answered disappears in the rear view mirror along wih yours.

W.

Orora - you spend a lot of time commenting on posters rather than the post. What the poster must think, what the poster must feel, where the poster must be going, what the poster is going to post next. Never a question

When I do ask questions- you don't answer either? You neither expect answers from others to your questions nor provide answers to others who inquire of you? Its not supposed to be just your blog. Why don't you concentrate on and tackle one thing at a time til done with each point instead of confusing and lumping everything all together into one big questionable series of debatable points?

I asked-

So just trying to put two and two together with what you say, are you suggesting that the facial injuries occured at home outside of a vehicle during an attack and that Christine was forceably abducted from home? Is this why you post the descriptions of the injuries in support of that position?

 

[Woodland]

For the record, I don't have a dispute with KJ. Unable to comment on the other way around.

Discrepancies don't help.

 

[orora]

I asked- any reason you don't answer?

So just trying to put two and two together with what you say, are you suggesting that the facial injuries occured at home outside of a vehicle during an attack and that Christine was forceably abducted from home? Is this why you post the descriptions of the injuries in support of that position?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hey y'all,

At the very minimum, the point list refreshes one's memory, and deliniates the various possibilities.

Certainly many of the descrepancies are irreconcilable.

A complete and cohesive list, with links and time point references could be a good end goal? Is there an archive.

But this one's just a courteous phone call away:

Having trouble finding confirmation when the coop or 'Queensville Farm Supply Ltd' at 1631 Queensville SR opened. A current google map does not have the feedmill on the west side of Leslie - it was torn down at some point?

http://www.queensvillefarmsupply.ca/

Queensville Farm Supply
1631 Queensville Side Road
905-478-4180
1-888-876-FARM (3276)
Queensville Ontario LOG 1RO


​

 

[orora]

All true and well and good in theory tadpole and it may end up going that way but there is a problem here to consider. This isn't the first time that suggestion has been brought up or the first thread that has tried to keep all this on track to some eventual conclusion. Four threads that I know of now, some shut down over disputes KJ and W. in the past.

So it may seem a valid exercise for W to list all of the inconsistencies and misunderstandings she can come up with to do with Ken's statements, and so then it is too for Ken in regard W. and round and round we go.

I can well imagine how tough it must be for Ken to have to deal with this for so long and at times answering over and over to ears that seem beyond the reach of reason. Ken has left threads before in disgust and W. has been involved in prior events that have closed threads.

Ken was here and was willing to give us a try again. He holds more answers than any of us. Dedpanman arranged to collect all our questions instead of bombarding Ken as is being done as of late again. We were supposed to submit everything we wanted to know. It was supposed to be a means to get past misconceptions and get us moving along. For some it has become a way of life, a constant to keep re asking questioning and pointing this and that out. He said /she said. Years of it..

At some point some how, we need to take what we can get from all of this inconsistencies and all and move along. We need to prioratize what benefit there is to each approach going forward.

Right now, Ken may still be willing to hang in awhile longer if we allow some elbow room. Before it becomes too late for that, take a moment to ask what is more important right now? The rest can wait imo. If you are reading here again Ken or if someone is in contact with Ken, maybe we can figure a way that is acceptable for Ken to participate here again?

Propose to halt or change the current process to a less inflamatory tact at least till Ken can answer for himself.

 

[Woodland]

orora

The conflicting information by degree of importance should be cleared up first by all rights. Seeing as that isn't likely to happen too easily, the investigative stage being long over, some nuggets are going to have to be discarded. Some unknown facts like how long it took for a witness to make it to the store and back may yet be demonstrable. Witnesses changing stories and timing may have to be discarded. Accepting one interpretation over another may be possible once the big picture takes form. Much like placing the last few pieces into a jigsaw puzzle that is 90% complete.

 

[orora]

Are we seeing that play out here or are we just seeing more of the same old process of parsing and debating each and every word and explanation offered by anyone at anytime? A never ending cycle of each new reply adding fuel to an already stoked fire. The same process that has doomed and ended three previous threads attempting to find conclusions. People will only stay with this through so many incarnations. I believe we are nearing that point.

In many of these threads you see a process that is really a process of coming to understand what has happened before during the official investigation. Our thoughts and questions mirror what went on in the minds of the investigators at the time. Back then they came to the conclusion after a great deal of prodding and holding feet to the fire that a few other suspects could have and should have been included in the investigation at the time. They did not make any determinations who did it or even who was most likely and did not seem to have pursued all the other suspects so far as to require a dna sample be provided. The original and the later reinvesigation seemed to have dropped the ball again and again. Ken believes that when we all catch up, that is what we should be looking at. Without, we will be stuck here forever debating the same as we have in all the previous attempts.

So now after 4 threads and multiple posts over and over discussing the same points, we have the same situation but with the addition of a couple of new suspects to add to the list. We have found some new information and have a much better understanding what we are all dealing with. All suspects mentioned are viable in some ways, none totally excluded by all we have found. That is part of the problem for some, but it is more a matter of perception than real imo. It is not necessary to bash or discredit each other or each others potential suspect to add more credence to whatever suspect each wishes to entertain. That keeps us divided and prevents us from being able to go forward. As in the original investigation, you come to a point where several possibilities remain. Even now we can see how the same information and evidence can be constructed and viewed in differing ways. They are all possibilities, some seeming more viable than others subjective each to his own views.

The DNA issues that once posed problems for each in individual ways was more a matter of perception as well. We know now that there is a valid DNA profile in the system and that it is comparable to others in the database. As well misconceptions that any potential suspect had to have three convictions before he could be entered into the database have been laid to rest.

With new understanding of some of these points should come a new awareness the possibilities that still exist. Many have believed the case unsolvable due to time and due to some misconceptions like the above. It is still being questioned whether the DNA has been compared against the international database due a recent example where that was found not to have been an automatic function. There may be an avenue open to pursue there. There are multiple other possible ways of using the DNA information, some by private means even. Recent dna cases show the use of an open ended dna warranting procedure that includes all potential suspects that meet a certain criteria. There may be possibilities here for that too, even if setting a precedent. It is the natural evolution of all that has been and where we are going with DNA science investigation and legislation. Would it not be appropriate for the little girl whos murder became the impetus for a dna databank to force the evolution of the system to solve her murder?

If and when we catch up to Ken and get to looking at the system and all that went wrong, we will be looking at much of the same information but in a different light. The same points will be brought up and names will be sought for who was responsible for each failure along the way. The inquiry defined much of that information already but a few points still need to be dissected to move along in that direction. There is a great deal of ammunition available there depending on how you view the evidence and which witnesses may still be alive.

So I have a question; if this is to be the final attempt at making the best out of such an atrocious event and finding some sort of justice for Christine, how do we bring this to a point where we can all move along together toward that goal? What more does each need? I would much prefer Ken be with us than against. I would like to see something come of all this. If it is a final tidying up of some points that is necessary, can we bring that to a head without it being inflammatory one against another? A change of tact, with the same goal in sight.

Things like what was presented by Tadpole above, are completely acceptable to all both in substance and presentation. imo.. If we need more information, its a nicer manner to do so..

 

[Woodland]

Took Tadpole12's advice and called the coop. Spoke to R - very nice fellow who made the time to chat. I only have the phone call in which to report some information, so if someone else would like to verify just ask for the best person to advise how long they have been there.

The building has been there for 85+ years. R has been there since 1983.

There was never a feedmill on Q'ville SR west of Leslie St. That makes the KR wrong.

If a Buick was there and passed a feedmill, it was westbound on Q'ville SR and passed by the park to reach Leslie St. It would have the right of way to go north on Leslie St. It isn't possible to see the feedmill from that corner but one can see the park.

If this happened, then the H's were on the west side and eastbound on Q'ville SR. If they were headed to Keswick (RR) then it makes little sense for them to want that intersection where a left turn by them would be required. They could have used the 2nd Concession to Ravenshoe Rd with little or no traffic.

As per page 13 of the KR, Det-Sgt Neale Tweedy was in charge of the police reports given to the inquiry.

What the H's actually said is now murky.

 

[Woodland]

orora

We each have to chose what we accept as being a potentially "viable" fact in many instances here.

 

[Woodland]

R from the coop knew JP.

He was married and had 1 bio daughter to the best of R's recollection. He lived in an apartment at the corner of Q'ville SR and Leslie St - not north of the Jessop home in 'the flats' as reported by KJ. The apartment was over the tractor dealership, next to the store.

There was a suspect reported to have lived in an apartment over the store but was separated from his wife and children at that time.

 

[Woodland]

In case some of the geography has been blurred - JP's daughter would not have gone past the Jessop house on a bus if they lived beside the store.

 

[orora]

With new information comes new understanding.

What the H's actually said is now murky.

Murkier than before if thats possible and why we seek the source documentation.

If the handling of facts and details about the Horwood sighting have been obscured so completely, botched so badly, that alone needs be put in context. Ken has said that many of the facts put forward in the trial and the inquiry were like this and he believed that was what needed to be looked at. Who and why was behind that? Going after Morin for whatever reason if as much if not more information and evidence was available on another suspect is not justifiable by any standard measurement. There were even cops charged with perjury during the course of this. At some point the deliberatness of it all raises an eyebrow.

Facts.. Ken rode the same bus as the daughter? Would he not know where the school bus travelled? No one can answer for Ken in regard "issues" like that. We are at that juncture where his participation is required for certain things. Ken If you are not going to return here again, please just take a minute to let us know asap. If anyone knows Ken, could you please ask and relay a response? Things will likely proceed in different directions dependant on that.

 

[Tadpole12]

FMI

Geographic points on google maps streetview differ from mailing address,

Google Maps Streetview identification points:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&su...tljp136158936669300&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Queensville Side Road.:

Old Grain Storage Building:
1595 Queensville Side Road.
East Gwillimberry, Ontario, Canada

QUEENSVILLE COUNTRY STORE:
1591 Queensville Side Road.
East Gwillimberry, Ontario, Canada

Leslie St:

Family Restaurant:
20497 Regional Road 12,
East Gwillimberry, Ontario, Canada

Past 'n' Present
Decorating:
20489 Regional Road 12,
East Gwillimberry, Ontario, Canada

BISHOP TRACTOR & EQUIPEMENT
905 478 4257:
20483 Regional Road 12,
East Gwillimberry, Ontario, Canada

20481 Garage in back of property?
20487 Apartments above store front?



Web Search Result, address:

BISHOP TRACTOR & EQUIPEMENT LTD
20485 Leslie Queensville, ON L0G 1R0
(905) 478-4257
http://www.nibordesigns.com/bishop/contact.htm

Queensville Farm Supply & Country Store
1631 Queensville Sd. Rd, Queensville, Ontario
905-478-4180

 

[Tadpole12]

for google maps streetview:

Simcoe St & Concession Road 4http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl#
Brock, ON L0C 1H0

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

 

[Dedpanman]

I contacted the CBC to see about purchasing a copy of the Fifth Estate episode “Odd Man Out” which aired back in 1992. This is the episode that KJessop referenced a number of times.

I was told that, unfortunately, the Fifth Estate programs can be very problematic when it comes to releasing them to the general public due to the program's “sensitive nature”. The older programs can't be released. In fact almost all past CBC programs can't be released to the public.

This information came from CBC Content Sales, Licensing Division, CBC Broadcast Centre.

 

[Dedpanman]

University of Toronto Library seems to have Fifth Estate episodes going back as far as 1994... But, that's no help. Perhaps there's another university library out there with the program in their collection?

 

[Woodland]

The Fifth Estate advertises their 'Odd Man Out' episode to have been an interview with GPM.

While there might be some shots speaking to others, the theme is GPM and his experience.

Not so sure waiting for that to appear will help with very much in light of what we know happened re the JP statements.

 

[KJessop]

I saw the slide of her skull and it was bashed in, nasals, cheekbones, maxillae. It could have occurred from stomping, or hits to the face with a fist or an object. Extreme violence. The breastbone cut was one slice, did not see saw marks from the photo. I think the perp used a knife, a big sharp one. No saw. JMO

How can you deny saying this when it is your exact quote...........

 

[KJessop]

R from the coop knew JP.

He was married and had 1 bio daughter to the best of R's recollection. He lived in an apartment at the corner of Q'ville SR and Leslie St - not north of the Jessop home in 'the flats' as reported by KJ. The apartment was over the tractor dealership, next to the store.

There was a suspect reported to have lived in an apartment over the store but was separated from his wife and children at that time.

Jp had no biological daughters one son, never lived at the corner.... oh my god...

 

[KJessop]

The Fifth Estate advertises their 'Odd Man Out' episode to have been an interview with GPM.

While there might be some shots speaking to others, the theme is GPM and his experience.

Not so sure waiting for that to appear will help with very much in light of what we know happened re the JP statements.

How can you summerize a show you haven't seen?