Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[tabitha111]

Do you all think that the Cold Lake sighting, pulling out of the mud, really happened? I always had a bit of trouble with that story...mostly because it changed so much, and the fact that they "both said their names" to the guy..just weird. Also the fact that he saw a sleeping bag hanging up to dry on the fence, that seemed to be added much later when the story of the boat operator came up about seeing a sleeping bag on the shore.

Townsfolk there were also wondering as they said the guy who pulled them out, seemed to be enjoying the limelight, embellishing the story too.

 

[Schmoosh]

I am still catching up but I do wonder if the person that went to the RCMP suggesting these two could be capable of murder was actually AS?
AS seemed to recognize very early on that his son was very troubled.....he seemed to know that his son would be dead soon. AS was the person that talked about a suicide mission.
AS stated that he did not want to insult Kam's family and he indicated Kam supplied the guns and of course the vehicle and the driving skills.

Did AS perhaps talk to the RCMP in depth about Bryers' troubled upbringing and his possible anger at the world?
JMO

From the RCMP report:
"The witness knew McLeod and Schmegelsky and believed the boys may have been involved in the murders. This is the first time that police learned that McLeod and Schmegelsky may be capable of the murders which conflicted with original witness statements from family and associates."

 

[cartman]

But the police said there was no evidence of pre-planning or motive. If they had tried to recruit someone else, that would have counted as evidence of pre-planning, and they surely would have said something to this person about motive, while trying to recruit them.

Good points. I think I am trying to make sense out of something that is just completely senseless.


@tabitha111 I am not ruling out that sighting because getting stuck in the mud fits the style of their Dumb and Dumber joyride while wearing gas station cowboy hats but I do think the person claiming he helped them embellished his account. Perhaps it was left out of the RCMP report because it didn't have a direct impact on their findings and the RCMP didn't want to give him any more attention.

 

[ktm44]

Interestingly, the following is from that same National Post article (B.C. teen killers hatched plan to hijack a boat and escape to Africa. It ended in suicide instead):

"...Al Schmegelsky wants more information, including on how his son came to possess what RCMP described to him as an “assault rifle” that Bryer apparently built on his own, Leamon said. (The RCMP declined to elaborate on either the specifics of Bryer’s death or the specifics of the firearm)."

I'm very sure that any parent would struggle to come to terms with the idea that their child is a murderer and I'm quite certain that the RCMP declined to disclose much on the older SKS because they'd rather not give someone else ideas on how to build/rebuild one but it's really not that hard.

I had prepared a reponse as to how easy it is but deleted it, out of respect for the victims and to not assist anyone else creating future victims.

AS wants claims to want answers but he's really looking to lay blame. It's not somebody else's fault, it's not something more gun control will fix and it certainly wasn't an accident that a firearm ended up in his son's hands. The answers are really quite simple, his son broke federal laws to possess the firearm and fulfil his desire to kill human beings.

 

[Betty P]

Thank you for the Star article. I was hoping at least one news outlet would have more details on their 'confession', but it's implied, rather than directly detailed. If they actually did confess, wouldn't it be easy for the police to say 'they gave out detailed information that only someone at the crime scene would have known'? Like all prior released evidence linking BS & KM to the crimes, specifically to the murder of LF and CD, it's another vague release by them.
The rifle thing is interesting though. Why would they need a rifle to commit crimes if they were already carrying hand gun(s)? What happened to the said rifle? The police never actually said what type of shots killed LF, CD, or LD. Couldn't they have determined a hand gun versus a rifle in those cases? They've only said many weeks later now that the handgun(s) found with BS & KM were the same used in those prior crimes.

If you check the "Conclusion" section of the RCMP report, they state the SKS weapons were used in the killings

There were two SKS type firearms used in the offences, one of which has being identified as being purchased by McLeod on July 12, 2019 at the Cabela’s Store in Nanaimo, BC. The second is an older style SKS with numerous serial numbers indicating parts from different weapons were put together over the years. Investigators were unable to identify where this older SKS weapon or parts originated from.

RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation

 

[sandbar]

The bullet casings being the same at LF/CD, LD, and K&B's death scenes is not circumstantial. For me, this is the evidence that says K&B are responsible.

ETA: and ballistics says the gun that fired the bullets was found at K&B's death scene.

But, I still want to know a few things:
WTF! The bullets were manufactured in 1975!!! Like, no joke W.T.F? How many bullets get made per year, and WHY!?

Where were K&B between the 12th and the 14th?

What about toxicology?

I would like to hear RCMP speak specifically about the recovery efforts made to gather info on the hard drives and other computer equipment from the burning/burnt camper and that specifically there was no evidence on those drives of internet searches related to anti-social, para-military, neo/n**i or hate groups.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Do they actually know for sure that Bryer built the rifle himself though? Or is it just a guess? Because I've heard these type of older rifles are fairly prevalent, usually are made up of different parts, and can be purchased cheaply for $200 or so. And I've also heard that if you're building a gun from different parts, you have to know what you're doing or it will explode in your face. With how much these guys failed at life in general, I can't really imagine Bryer successfully building a gun that actually worked.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I'm still not 100% that they were solely responsible, if they were at all. We haven't actually seen the video, or a transcript of what they said, just a summary, so whether they really did admit to the prior killings is up for debate.
What I find strange with the current release is that if they had admitted committing crimes on 'camera' (before that, they were said to have recorded on a phone), why did it take more than a month to divulge that information? They already said they had looked at the footage recorded on a phone, you'd think they would have done it with the camera as well.
They're still being very vague about the tip that led them to believe BS & KM were respondible for LF & CD's murders. They even charged them in absentia with their murders, in order to do that, you need to have pretty good evidence. They're admitting now their main evidence is based on items found at BS & KM death scene?
Finally, the LD murder is a completely different m.o. from LF & CD's murder. It's not clear if there was any physical contact between the murderer(s) and LF & CD, but according to this new report, it sounds like LD was tortured. Bruising and burns sound to me more personal, like an interrogation, than a thrill kill just to steal the guy's vehicle.
At this point I cannot still cannot say with full certainty that BS & KM were personally involved, or solely involved, in all of the murders. Their behaviours after the fact didn't seem to point to two individuals who were on the run, trying to conceal a crime. They didn't wear hats or hoodies to hide their identities, which is how criminals usually behave. They willingly gave their names to a stranger out in the Saskatchewan. They didn't even commit more 'thrill kills' which is very strange, especially if they had so many more opportunities to do so. The evidence sounds very circumstantial, and it's hard to say if it would hold up in court. Unless a detailed transcript or clips of the video 'confessions' surface, it's hard to say how believable this evidence is. It sounds like something torn out of a TV show, wrapped up too conveniently for my tastes. But that is my honest opinion.
Correction: I thought that at the time they found the bodies, they said what kind of weapons were located. They didn't specify, they only said firearms. But now I'm seeing that the firearms were indeed rifles.

Here is what I am referring, is how odd the videos were moved from cellphones to a camera

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...efore-taking-their-lives-20190820-p52isy.html

"...left a "last will and testament" video message. Kam McLeod, 19, and Bryer Schmegelsky, 18, recorded the video message on their mobile phones before taking their own lives in remote bushland in northern Manitoba, the Toronto Star reported on Monday."

 

[SiciC]

I wonder how planned this even was. I think it's entirely possible they only planned to do it a couple of days before they set out, because of how abrupt this trip was, how there was no evidence of pre-planning (I find it difficult to believe these guys would have left no signs if they had been planning this for a long time), how they didn't even get one of the guns until the day they left, and how poorly planned the whole thing seemed. Like it was probably something they were fantasizing about for years, but they only decided to make it a reality maybe a day or two before they set out, after they gave up on life. That's what I think anyway.

I also think it was a sloppy, fast decision to actually go out and do it, but they'd been talking about it/fantasizing for quite some time. Two guys just don't go from being normal, innocent, everyday best friends to a serial killing team overnight. There had to be some element of pre-planning. Getting the gun the day they left shows that they had the intent to do what they were going to do when they left and did it. Maybe the time was just right for them, Kam had his truck and camper, they had their "leaving to find work" story ready for their families, they seemed to know the type of victims they wanted to target - vulnerable, helpless, and alone without witnesses nearby. They could have just gone out and did a mass shooting at a mall or something, but they didn't. They wanted to "hunt" vulnerable people. There's no doubt, in my mind anyways, that they talked about this long before they set off to do it. They didn't just bring those guns, see an easy opportunity to kill some people and shoot them out of the blue.. They knew they were going to do exactly that when they left.

JMO.

 

[Satchie]

But the police said there was no evidence of pre-planning or motive. If they had tried to recruit someone else, that would have counted as evidence of pre-planning, and they surely would have said something to this person about motive, while trying to recruit them.

I think police found no written documentation about preplanning, or clear written statements of motive. Without that, I think they would consider it to be speculating, and it would be counter-productive because they don't want other young men to be inspired by, and emulate them.

IMO, if they'd been caught and brought to trial, the prosecution would have come up with a theory about motive, in order to make sense of their actions and persuade the jury of their guilt. But that's the prosecution's task, not police's.

 

[10ofRods]

I totally agree with your perspective about these crimes and the 2 men, they aren't worth dissecting, there's nothing to dissect, they were cold, heartless killers who murdered for the thrill of it! The horror of the crimes committed by them should be a reminder, instead of brushing it aside and romanticising the life and death of these 2 sickening creatures! Edit: Alas, and so it begins.

Crime prevention begins with analysis, of which there are many different kinds. I myself do not see any "romanticization" in looking at autopsies and such, nor in hearing how innocent people were murdered. But without some details, we are unable to form the important pictures that have led to massive reductions (or increases) in crime rates all over the world. In the US, the 1920's and the 1970's were our two most violent decades, and when one looks at the patterns and even just the typology of crimes that resulted in convictions in those eras, much can be understood.

If you're not noticing that there are kinds of crimes that are being committed by armed young males in Western societies, that's fine. It's okay not to be interested in why. But I'm curious why you follow true crime in general, then? If it's just to be horrified and remember horror, that is then your personal reason.

I've done years of work with criminal and other locked populations. Understanding these populations has led, for example, to better designs of jails and prisons, but also to better training and understanding of the people who have to work with them. To me, this work and understanding is crucial.

It's also important to at least ponder how people like K & B differ from their age peers, their geographical peers, and the rest of us. Sometimes we don't get a lot out of that pondering, but occasionally, something new is known or understood. There are some absolutely challenging dead ends in this kind of work and things we'll never understand or be able to predict. At the same time, without this kind of work, we wouldn't understand suicide or homicide at all.

 

[Schmoosh]

The bullet casings being the same at LF/CD, LD, and K&B's death scenes is not circumstantial. For me, this is the evidence that says K&B are responsible.

But, I still want to know a few things:
WTF! The bullets were manufactured in 1975!!! Like, no joke W.T.F? How many bullets get made per year, and WHY!?

Where were K&B between the 12th and the 14th?

What about toxicology?

I would like to hear RCMP speak specifically about the recovery efforts made to gather info on the hard drives and other computer equipment from the burning/burnt camper and that specifically there was no evidence on those drives of internet searches related to anti-social, para-military, neo/n**i or hate groups.

Correct. Same bullet types used in all three murders, potentially linking the three murders, but not to a specific firearm and thus not specifically to K & B. They couldn't match up the bullets to the firearms until after they found the firearms, which wasn't until they were found dead. Same with the confession video - not found until after they were dead. By some people's logic, if by matching bullet types alone between the three murders were enough, they would have charged K & B with all three murders before the were found dead. They didn't, because they couldn't.

 

[Shlock Homes]

The bullet casings being the same at LF/CD, LD, and K&B's death scenes is not circumstantial. For me, this is the evidence that says K&B are responsible.

But, I still want to know a few things:
WTF! The bullets were manufactured in 1975!!! Like, no joke W.T.F? How many bullets get made per year, and WHY!?

Where were K&B between the 12th and the 14th?

What about toxicology?

I would like to hear RCMP speak specifically about the recovery efforts made to gather info on the hard drives and other computer equipment from the burning/burnt camper and that specifically there was no evidence on those drives of internet searches related to anti-social, para-military, neo/n**i or hate groups.

I'm reading online different websites, apparently rounds can last for decades if stored properly under the right conditions. They bought those rounds from a store, so I'm guessing the owner looked after them.
What I'm wondering is why did they destroy some of the rounds in the truck fire? Wouldn't they be concerned about keeping them?
Also, if they burned their truck first, how did they expect to get around? How long would they be walking along that highway before someone stopped for them?

 

[FactFinder3000]

Well perhaps there was no direct evidence of pre-planning, but purchasing a rifle shows it was planned, in my view.

"Based on the firearms lab results, similar offence pattern, timelines of suspects and admissions from McLeod and Schmegelsky, no other suspects are responsible for the three homicides.

I'll take the RCMP's official reasons as to how they made their conclusion.

LOL, they didn't have confessions when they declared them suspects.

 

[sandbar]

I'm reading online different websites, apparently rounds can last for decades if stored properly under the right conditions. They bought those rounds from a store, so I'm guessing the owner looked after them.
What I'm wondering is why did they destroy some of the rounds in the truck fire? Wouldn't they be concerned about keeping them?
Also, if they burned their truck first, how did they expect to get around? How long would they be walking along that highway before someone stopped for them?

Would a large amount of ammo explode? Or have I seen too much TV? Maybe K&B thought the ammo would make the camper explode?

 

[Schmoosh]

Crime prevention begins with analysis, of which there are many different kinds. I myself do not see any "romanticization" in looking at autopsies and such, nor in hearing how innocent people were murdered. But without some details, we are unable to form the important pictures that have led to massive reductions (or increases) in crime rates all over the world. In the US, the 1920's and the 1970's were our two most violent decades, and when one looks at the patterns and even just the typology of crimes that resulted in convictions in those eras, much can be understood.

If you're not noticing that there are kinds of crimes that are being committed by armed young males in Western societies, that's fine. It's okay not to be interested in why. But I'm curious why you follow true crime in general, then? If it's just to be horrified and remember horror, that is then your personal reason.

I've done years of work with criminal and other locked populations. Understanding these populations has led, for example, to better designs of jails and prisons, but also to better training and understanding of the people who have to work with them. To me, this work and understanding is crucial.

It's also important to at least ponder how people like K & B differ from their age peers, their geographical peers, and the rest of us. Sometimes we don't get a lot out of that pondering, but occasionally, something new is known or understood. There are some absolutely challenging dead ends in this kind of work and things we'll never understand or be able to predict. At the same time, without this kind of work, we wouldn't understand suicide or homicide at all.

I was wondering when you'd show up! Do you have any experience/insight into "warning behaviour"?

https://blog.oup.com/2012/12/warning-behavior-targeted-violence/

 

[Schmoosh]

Well perhaps there was no direct evidence of pre-planning, but purchasing a rifle shows it was planned, in my view.


LOL, they didn't have confessions when they declared them suspects.

I agree that the purchase of the firearm was pre-planning.

A suspected is simply a suspect. They were never charged in L & C's murder before they were found dead because there wasn't enough evidence to do so.

 

[Betty P]

Agree.

I've thought about this back window for some time now too. I always figured it had been shot out from the outside.My theory is similar to yours, that Chynna and Lucas were sleeping or just laying in the van when Kam and Bryer approached and shot the back van window while L & C were inside. I think L & C hastily left the van to escape and were then shot multiple times as they tried to get away. I think their bodies were re-positioned beside the van after they were deceased or severely injured & dying, just because of the locations and positions they were found in.

It's really scary to imagine. All this happening in the middle of no where, middle of the night, likely very dark surroundings (no street lights out there, and van was broken down). Just a confusing and terrifying event.. Stuck on the side of an isolated road at night and a team of gun toting murderers happen upon you... A true nightmare.

All just my own opinions

Yes, the terror they must have experienced is heartbreaking. Did you read the report in the RCMP summary about a witness in BC stating he was napping late at night in his truck in a wooded pullover area? He saw their truck drive up, one of them got out and started walking towards the napping guy's truck carrying a long gun, the other driving alongside.

Fortunately, the witness was awake to see this and quickly started his vehicle and drove away. But it revealed the MO these two used - finding people sleeping in their vehicles, then creeping up to shoot and kill them. They likely did that with Chynna and Lucas and also with Dyck, though it can't be confirmed.

I read that late last night and it gave me nightmares. It makes me afraid to go camping ever again, even in an RV or trailer.

 

[sandbar]

They couldn't match up the bullets to the firearms until after they found the firearms, which wasn't until they were found dead.

Right, but that's not that unusual to my way of thinking, unless I'm wrong...it takes a bullet casing and the gun that fires it to be conclusive.

And, the bullets that killed LF&CD, LD and K&B were fired from the same gun and that gun was found near K&B. That's conclusive for me.

 

[Satchie]

Really, all they had was pure circumstantial evidence until ballistics were done and a video confession was found, both of which didn't occur until after they were found dead.

The concept you may be missing is probable cause. Police don't have to wait to arrest someone until they have irrefutable proof: otherwise criminals would be able to escape, or work to cover up their crimes, or commit more crimes. Probable cause is when several factors are proven, which add up together so that a reasonable person (the judge) would assume they were probably guilty, and therefore police have the right to detain and charge them. Then there is the trial process, which comes much later.

I would suggest that for myself, I actually trust the criminal justice system quite highly, so that the fact that the police stated strongly that they were the culprits is sufficient probable cause for me to believe it, in the context of an amateur following the case online at home. If I had been called to serve on the jury of this case , I would say truthfully that I had already formed an opinion and would be rejected as a candidate.